Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is PiratedUse free/open source software - it's the best protest ever.
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That's what I do!
Jim
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anon @ 13th Oct 10:37AM:
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rawwhide @ 13th Oct 10:37AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by The Snowman :
I've no idea what Rawhide is talking about. Below is a copy and paste of the questions:
Let me take up all of my time to write you this huge wall of text so as to answer and maybe clarify some of your comments/questions. I think I have an idea as to why no one has attempted to answer your questions. Your questions are vague and your writing is hard to comprehend(no offense). For instance:I've no idea what Rawhide is talking about. Below is a copy and paste of the questions:
said by The Snowman :
"Respect is a two way street. But software vendors want it totally and complete all their way.
What? What does the word it refer to? Does the word it refer to a two way street or respect? Replace the word it with two way street or respect, then read the question and you will see why its difficult to comprehend."Respect is a two way street. But software vendors want it totally and complete all their way.
said by The Snowman :
Do you know of even one software vendor that will pay for damages caused to a consumer's computer because of his badly coded program......well ?
Are you referring to physical damage to a computer or virtual damage? In either case I have never had software damage any computer. I have never had software foul up someones OS. On the other hand I have seen pirated software royally screw someones OS by installing trojans and rootkits. That's the breaks. You pirate at your own risk. Do you know of even one software vendor that will pay for damages caused to a consumer's computer because of his badly coded program......well ?
said by The Snowman :
An when a consumer pays $50 for a vendors software an the vendor sticks a toolbar into the install setup but does not tell the consumer...........do you consider that the vendor is being honest by being so sneaky ?
I have never seen a legit software company(vendor) insist on installing a toolbar with no opt out. I usually see people just click through the install without reading, then cry foul because they now have a toolbar. In some cases I have seen people want those toolbars. Go figure.An when a consumer pays $50 for a vendors software an the vendor sticks a toolbar into the install setup but does not tell the consumer...........do you consider that the vendor is being honest by being so sneaky ?
said by The Snowman :
An how about these software informer thingys
That question or statement is vague. Im not for sure what you are talking about. What is an informer thingy?An how about these software informer thingys
said by The Snowman :
An how about these software informer thingys so polulat with vendors these days.......informer is the correct word.....but who the hell is being informed ? Can an in-experience consumer know that answer ?
I have no clue what any of this means.An how about these software informer thingys so polulat with vendors these days.......informer is the correct word.....but who the hell is being informed ? Can an in-experience consumer know that answer ?
said by The Snowman :
An when you install software that little agreement pops up that you must agree to before the install will continues.......does it give complete advantage to the software vendor.......or the consumer ?
The agreement gives an advantage to no one. Read the agreement, then decide if you want to install or use the software. There are lots of other choices out there for you to use. Some are even free.An when you install software that little agreement pops up that you must agree to before the install will continues.......does it give complete advantage to the software vendor.......or the consumer ?
said by The Snowman :
Now we can call it cars, peanuts...cabbage or whatever but the fact remains that software vendors brought this upon themselfs by mis-leading and cheating the consumer over many years.........they should have regulated themsels so as the innocent vendors would not pay the price for the bad vendors....but they didn't.......well guess what....the prirates sure as heck will regulate them.
Lets call software money, which in fact what software really is. Lets substitute software companies, or vendors as you like to call them, with banks. Run that scenario and get back to me. Good luck.Now we can call it cars, peanuts...cabbage or whatever but the fact remains that software vendors brought this upon themselfs by mis-leading and cheating the consumer over many years.........they should have regulated themsels so as the innocent vendors would not pay the price for the bad vendors....but they didn't.......well guess what....the prirates sure as heck will regulate them.
said by The Snowman :
A worker should be paided his just reward for his work
When you pirate you steal that workers just reward.A worker should be paided his just reward for his work
said by The Snowman :
the consumer should not be forced to accept outragous terms to use software........that leaves the consumer with no avenue to justice. "
I have yet to see outrageous terms. A ToS does leave an avenue for the consumer, which is, do not use the software. Let me change up a little of what I said earlier so that it works with what I think you are asking. If it is over priced, full of malware, insists on a toolbar you can't opt out of, has outrageous terms, then DON'T BUY the software, OR DON'T USE the software. It is that simple. The vendor will either lower the price, remove the toolbar, or remove the malware else they will go bankrupt. If the software isn't screwing people as you say, then people will buy it or use it. Just because you think it screws people doesn't mean you have to buy it or steal it. the consumer should not be forced to accept outragous terms to use software........that leaves the consumer with no avenue to justice. "
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To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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jefe @ 13th Oct 10:51AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by rawwhide :
I have yet to see outrageous terms. A ToS does leave an avenue for the consumer, which is, do not use the software. Let me change up a little of what I said earlier so that it works with what I think you are asking. If it is over priced, full of malware, insists on a toolbar you can't opt out of, has outrageous terms, then DON'T BUY the software, OR DON'T USE the software. It is that simple. The vendor will either lower the price, remove the toolbar, or remove the malware else they will go bankrupt. If the software isn't screwing people as you say, then people will buy it or use it. Just because you think it screws people doesn't mean you have to buy it or steal it.
Amen brother!!! Well said.I have yet to see outrageous terms. A ToS does leave an avenue for the consumer, which is, do not use the software. Let me change up a little of what I said earlier so that it works with what I think you are asking. If it is over priced, full of malware, insists on a toolbar you can't opt out of, has outrageous terms, then DON'T BUY the software, OR DON'T USE the software. It is that simple. The vendor will either lower the price, remove the toolbar, or remove the malware else they will go bankrupt. If the software isn't screwing people as you say, then people will buy it or use it. Just because you think it screws people doesn't mean you have to buy it or steal it.
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DownTheShore @ 13th Oct 10:59AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by StraitShoot :
With all the Freeware alternatives (in most cases, BETTER than piad software), why would someone even consider to pirate software? Even M$ Office is lame (for me) compared to Openoffice. WTF's the problem?
While there's a lot of freeware alternative out there that are very good (I use a lot of them myself) there are, however, some programs that don't have comparable freeware alternatives, or affordable shareware alternatives. With all the Freeware alternatives (in most cases, BETTER than piad software), why would someone even consider to pirate software? Even M$ Office is lame (for me) compared to Openoffice. WTF's the problem?
You have to remember, we're talking about two different classes of people here - though apparently some of you (speaking generally here) don't see the degree of difference between them.
There are the people who do the actual cracking of the software. Why do they do that? To test their skills? Just to prove they can? For ideological reasons? To profit from it? To harm companies? Because they are budding criminal masterminds? There can be a myriad number of reasons. They are the people who are doing the actual "criminal" act.
Then there are the people who use the software, the ones who are benefiting from the actions of the people who did the cracking. I gave one reason why they might used the pirate-ware, above. Why else? Because it's out there and readily available if you know where to look? Because they see no harm in using it, since it's already cracked? Because they wouldn't be purchasers anyway so don't see their use of it as loss of income for its producer? Because their moral code is not your code? People who won't shoplift will use pirated software, just as people who do shoplift will use pirated software. The simple fact is that for a lot of people they are able to rationalize it as not being theft on par with shoplifting; it's more on par with buying something that "fell off a truck".
Life is not black-and-white, and for many people this is one of those gray areas - like it or not.
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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NormanS @ 13th Oct 11:10AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
You have to remember, we're talking about two different classes of people here - though apparently some of you (speaking generally here) don't see the degree of difference between them.
There are the people who do the actual cracking of the software ...
Then there are the people who use the software, the ones who are benefiting from the actions of the people who did the cracking ...
Life is not black-and-white, and for many people this is one of those gray areas - like it or not.
Sort of like buying used hardware out of the trunk of the thief. The purchaser of the "used hardware" is an enabler of the thief; if there were no people willing to buy stolen goods, there would be no reason to steal them.You have to remember, we're talking about two different classes of people here - though apparently some of you (speaking generally here) don't see the degree of difference between them.
There are the people who do the actual cracking of the software ...
Then there are the people who use the software, the ones who are benefiting from the actions of the people who did the cracking ...
Life is not black-and-white, and for many people this is one of those gray areas - like it or not.
Very gray area, indeed.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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jefe @ 13th Oct 11:12AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
It seems to me you're picking nits. It's as if you're saying stealing $100 isn't as bad as stealing $1,000.
To me buying something that you clearly know "fell off a truck" is on par with shoplifting. And using software that someone else cracked is on par with you cracking it yourself.
You can rationalize all you want to but stealing is stealing.
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 11:19AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
There are the people who do the actual cracking of the software. Why do they do that? To test their skills? Just to prove they can? For ideological reasons? To profit from it? To harm companies? Because they are budding criminal masterminds? There can be a myriad number of reasons. They are the people who are doing the actual "criminal" act.
Then there are the people who use the software, the ones who are benefiting from the actions of the people who did the cracking. I gave one reason why they might used the pirate-ware, above. Why else? Because it's out there and readily available if you know where to look? Because they see no harm in using it, since it's already cracked? Because they wouldn't be purchasers anyway so don't see their use of it as loss of income for its producer? Because their moral code is not your code? People who won't shoplift will use pirated software, just as people who do shoplift will use pirated software. The simple fact is that for a lot of people they are able to rationalize it as not being theft on par with shoplifting; it's more on par with buying something that "fell off a truck".
People who use cracked software can still be guilty of possession of stolen property (see my post above).There are the people who do the actual cracking of the software. Why do they do that? To test their skills? Just to prove they can? For ideological reasons? To profit from it? To harm companies? Because they are budding criminal masterminds? There can be a myriad number of reasons. They are the people who are doing the actual "criminal" act.
Then there are the people who use the software, the ones who are benefiting from the actions of the people who did the cracking. I gave one reason why they might used the pirate-ware, above. Why else? Because it's out there and readily available if you know where to look? Because they see no harm in using it, since it's already cracked? Because they wouldn't be purchasers anyway so don't see their use of it as loss of income for its producer? Because their moral code is not your code? People who won't shoplift will use pirated software, just as people who do shoplift will use pirated software. The simple fact is that for a lot of people they are able to rationalize it as not being theft on par with shoplifting; it's more on par with buying something that "fell off a truck".
People pirate or use pirated software because they can as its easy to justify the compromise to their honesty or whatever they want to call it. Its not really different then me hiring someone, who then does a job for me and then me deciding to not pay them, there was an exchange of services, but not an exchange of payment (or whatever the terms of the license/contract required).
Pirating or using pirated software, music etc is by legal definition illegal (not to confuse backups for personal use with pirating etc).
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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DownTheShore @ 13th Oct 11:22AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by jefe :
It seems to me you're picking nits. It's as if you're saying stealing $100 isn't as bad as stealing $1,000.
To me buying something that you clearly know "fell off a truck" is on par with shoplifting. And using software that someone else cracked is on par with you cracking it yourself.
You can rationalize all you want to but stealing is stealing.
As you said, to you it's on par with it. But you are making the assumption that everyone shares your moral code, and that's simply not true. The rationales I'm offering up are meant to show the differences in moral codes, not nit-picking.It seems to me you're picking nits. It's as if you're saying stealing $100 isn't as bad as stealing $1,000.
To me buying something that you clearly know "fell off a truck" is on par with shoplifting. And using software that someone else cracked is on par with you cracking it yourself.
You can rationalize all you want to but stealing is stealing.
I'm glad that, for you, everything is so clear-cut. But don't generalize your POV to the rest of the population in this instance, because it's clear from the title of the thread that not everyone shares it.
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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DownTheShore @ 13th Oct 11:32AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I notice that you did not address my post about incorporating the ideas of other people into the software you create. Nor do you need to.
My point being that everyone makes "compromises to their honesty" to one degree or another throughout their lives, whether it's just lying to protect someone's feelings or using pirated software or not paying someone the full value of their services or fudging on their tax returns or whatever. Not everyone views their own actions as being criminal, or if they do they may see it as being inconsequential. I'm not saying that POV is right or wrong, just that it's a fact of human existence.
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 11:35AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
So give your suggested price of the software (ie what you think would be a fair price that you would pay for it) and some explanation of why your price is different then Adobe's suggested price or why you wouldn't pay for it but would continue using it?
You can suggest/explain other software as well.
Perhaps people have a price/value issue which drives them to pirate the software and so perhaps we should explore that.
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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rawwhide @ 13th Oct 11:38AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
Not everyone views their own actions as being criminal, or if they do they may see it as being inconsequential.
A thief is still a thief. Regardless of how you view things, the law is the law. If you don't like the laws you can have them changed rather than break them.Not everyone views their own actions as being criminal, or if they do they may see it as being inconsequential.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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DownTheShore @ 13th Oct 11:43AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
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anon @ 13th Oct 12:01PM:
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rawwhide @ 13th Oct 12:03PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
The consequences are the same nonetheless whether you view a law as valid or not. Walk down the street with a pound of marijuana and see how far you get. Just because someone would think its a none valid law doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them any less.That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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suprleg @ 13th Oct 12:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
Huh, sounds like the definition of unlawful....That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
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SlickEnW @ 13th Oct 01:34PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Link Logger :
Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
So give your suggested price of the software (ie what you think would be a fair price that you would pay for it) and some explanation of why your price is different then Adobe's suggested price or why you wouldn't pay for it but would continue using it?
Again i'd wager that around 90 percent of unauthorized photoshop installations are high schoolers/college students making banners and sigs for one another..oh, and taking their crappy photos and making it black and white. Perhaps the other 10 are design houses who want to use it without paying licensing fees. Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
So give your suggested price of the software (ie what you think would be a fair price that you would pay for it) and some explanation of why your price is different then Adobe's suggested price or why you wouldn't pay for it but would continue using it?
For everyone else I.E. corporate institutions or serious design/production houses there is a serious DISincentive to pirate something like Photoshop or perhaps an entire operating system, because there are several factors to take into consideration assuming that were are talking about bonafied piracy and not licensing issues (i.e. installing a volume license product on more seats than purchased).
-Sourcing the product
-Version updates, especially if there is a new version out but the crack hacks an older version, thus you are waiting for a rls group to produce an update which may or may not happen.
-Lack of support
-Possible compromise of system, see the OSX.Trojan.iServices variant B payload that was packaged with the photoshop cs4 install ( »www.informationweek.com/news/sec···12902645 )
-Whistle blowers
etc etc.
Oh, and since I do use Photoshop I can say that it's well worth the money, though its cheaper if you buy on of their other suits (I have the CS4 master collection). Anyone who says it isn't A) sucks at it and B) doesn't make money off of it (or gets paid to use it). Clearly paying a couple hundred dollars to enlarge and rotate pictures of cats is a waste of potential, yet thats the skill level I see rampant 'round these parts. Students of course can get the master collection for I believe $600 bucks and Adobe explicitly states that the buyer can use it in a commercial setting, which I've never seen another company do on academic priced software.
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KodiacZiller @ 13th Oct 02:16PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Link Logger :
Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
I would pay $0 for it. I have GIMP which does 95% of what Photoshop can do.Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
As for other software, let's see:
Operating systems: I would pay $0, especially for M$'s junk. I have Linux.
Word Processors: I would pay $0. I have OpenOffice and KOffice.
Security Software: The biggest racket in the software industry there is. I would, of course, pay $0. I have Linux.
Burning software: I would pay $0. Screw Nero, I have K3b.
Music Software: I have Amarok which is at least as good as anything on Windoze.
Encryption software: Screw paying for PGP -- I have a better alternative, GnuPG.
I am sure there is much I have left out. The moral of the story: One can have a completely free software machine without having to pirate anything.
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JohnInSJ @ 13th Oct 03:31PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Link Logger :
Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
I use Gimp on Linux. The wife uses Photoshop Elements 7. We paid around $80 for it from Amazon. I've used the full photoshop (at work, VL on work machine) and PE is way more then 1/6th of the functionality for about 1/6th the cost.Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
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The Snowman @ 13th Oct 03:52PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Nope ! My questions are still un-answered.
But hey thats ok guys......hang in there.
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 06:10PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by KodiacZiller :
As for other software, let's see:
Operating systems: I would pay $0, especially for M$'s junk. I have Linux.
Word Processors: I would pay $0. I have OpenOffice and KOffice.
Security Software: The biggest racket in the software industry there is. I would, of course, pay $0. I have Linux.
Burning software: I would pay $0. Screw Nero, I have K3b.
Music Software: I have Amarok which is at least as good as anything on Windoze.
Encryption software: Screw paying for PGP -- I have a better alternative, GnuPG.
I am sure there is much I have left out. The moral of the story: One can have a completely free software machine without having to pirate anything.
Most definitely it is possible in some cases to use freeware or open source software and certainly some people think its a viable solution as do people who use commercial software, different strokes for different folks and aren't options great.said by Link Logger :
Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
I would pay $0 for it. I have GIMP which does 95% of what Photoshop can do.Lets change the direction of this a bit and ask people what they think or would be willing to pay for Adobe's Photoshop app given it seems to be a commonly pirated program (not being a digital picture kind of guy I don't use it nor do I have it so I can't comment that its worth anything other then Adobe's listed price).
As for other software, let's see:
Operating systems: I would pay $0, especially for M$'s junk. I have Linux.
Word Processors: I would pay $0. I have OpenOffice and KOffice.
Security Software: The biggest racket in the software industry there is. I would, of course, pay $0. I have Linux.
Burning software: I would pay $0. Screw Nero, I have K3b.
Music Software: I have Amarok which is at least as good as anything on Windoze.
Encryption software: Screw paying for PGP -- I have a better alternative, GnuPG.
I am sure there is much I have left out. The moral of the story: One can have a completely free software machine without having to pirate anything.
GIMP has a donation link on its homepage (»www.gimp.org/?www.sdr.com.br), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Amarok has a donation link on its homepage (»amarok.kde.org/), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Some Linux distros also have donation links (etc Mint), and not knowing what distro your using, I would hope that you donate where possible if you feel the software is of benefit.
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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KodiacZiller @ 13th Oct 06:28PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Link Logger :
Most definitely it is possible in some cases to use freeware or open source software and certainly some people think its a viable solution as do people who use commercial software, different strokes for different folks and aren't options great.
GIMP has a donation link on its homepage (»www.gimp.org/?www.sdr.com.br), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Amarok has a donation link on its homepage (»amarok.kde.org/), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Some Linux distros also have donation links (etc Mint), and not knowing what distro your using, I would hope that you donate where possible if you feel the software is of benefit.
Blake
You're right. It is always preferable to donate to projects that are of value and I have no issue doing that. I don't tend to donate to the Linux distros themselves because the distros I tend to use are corporate backed anyway (Canonical, Red Hat, etc.)Most definitely it is possible in some cases to use freeware or open source software and certainly some people think its a viable solution as do people who use commercial software, different strokes for different folks and aren't options great.
GIMP has a donation link on its homepage (»www.gimp.org/?www.sdr.com.br), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Amarok has a donation link on its homepage (»amarok.kde.org/), I would hope if you liked it so much that you would donate to its cause.
Some Linux distros also have donation links (etc Mint), and not knowing what distro your using, I would hope that you donate where possible if you feel the software is of benefit.
Blake
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DownTheShore @ 13th Oct 07:02PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by suprleg :
Of course it's unlawful if the situation meets the requirements of the current law, I'm not disputing that. What I'm trying to make you folks understand is that even though software pirating may be unlawful (and I AM NOT extrapolating this statement to other criminal activity) the people who are doing it either don't view the law as being a valid one or else don't give a damn one way or the other about it.said by DownTheShore :
That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
Huh, sounds like the definition of unlawful....That may be your choice as a course of redress, but as I've been trying and trying to point out not everyone thinks the same way. If someone doesn't recognize a law as being valid, they're not going to think twice about "breaking" it. They just do not view things the same way that you do.
You guys (speaking generally here) are so self-righteous in your "this is right, this is wrong, and that's just the way it is" that you are not even trying to put yourself into someone else's mindset to see why THEY may not view the situation the same way you do. I'm not asking you to condone their actions, but just restating the obvious without trying to understand WHY people do the things they do just means that the problem will never be solved. We've already learned in many situations that you just can't legislate a problem away; there has to be a change in attitude also. If you are unable to put yourself in someone else's shoes (be they, by your definition, law-abiding or criminal), how can you ever hope to understand the things they do? Just saying, "No, that is theft" does nothing to resolve the problem; it just makes you feel superior because you don't engage in that particular activity.
LinkLogger asked a good question regarding what monetary value people would place on particular software. That is the kind of question that will help us to understand the varying POV's here.
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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dave @ 13th Oct 07:30PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
LinkLogger asked a good question regarding what monetary value people would place on particular software. That is the kind of question that will help us to understand the varying POV's here.
Exactly, and that's why software for professional use is expensive.LinkLogger asked a good question regarding what monetary value people would place on particular software. That is the kind of question that will help us to understand the varying POV's here.
Don't think using Photoshop at $700 earns or saves (depending on viewpoint) your business more than it costs? Then you'd be foolish to buy it. Do it some other way.
Don't think using the MS Office suite at however-much-it-costs saves your office more than it costs you? Then you'd be foolish to buy it. (A secretary and a typewriter probably costs you more, though).
Where I have problems is with people who don't like the asking price but think they're entitled to the software anyway. "Photoshop is a professional tool but I WANT IT ANYWAY and I don't think it's fair if I have to pay $700".
(I'd kind of like Photoshop myself, but I don't feel I'd get $700 of use out of it; I'm a bit busy right now).
As has been observed, there is an alternative barn-raising approach to software development. No-one's holding a gun to your head and making you pay for software that you (generic, not you in particular) seem to despise anyway.
Old joke: "The food is terrible, and besides the portions are too small".
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The Snowman @ 13th Oct 08:26PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Finally ! Finally !
DownTheShore and Dave......two people with the intellect...open mindedness...common sense.....and insight to view the issues...........
Some of the comments I've seen posted are the most outragous that I've seen in fifteen years of doing security work.........Sunday School Morals. twisted to meet the needs of the poster................I kept waiting for one of those posters to jump-up an say: "give me an amen Brother" in a Jim Jones fashion.
What began as a decent discussion has been twisted.
Open minded discussion is a way of seeking possible answers......
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rawwhide @ 13th Oct 09:14PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by The Snowman :
I kept waiting for one of those posters to jump-up an say: "give me an amen Brother" in a Jim Jones fashion.
What began as a decent discussion has been twisted.
Open minded discussion is a way of seeking possible answers......
I guess you missed this I kept waiting for one of those posters to jump-up an say: "give me an amen Brother" in a Jim Jones fashion.
What began as a decent discussion has been twisted.
Open minded discussion is a way of seeking possible answers......
»Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I am open minded, but also mindful of laws, rules and regulation. Without those there would anarchy. The discussion is still decent an open. We all get to see how others view things. I get a better understanding of how the criminal element thinks.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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Vampirefo @ 13th Oct 09:21PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Yeah the religious people keep jumping in with praises and Amen's they forget one should not judge or he that is without sin cast the first stone, I love to watch these type of people.
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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Vampirefo @ 13th Oct 09:27PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
possession of stolen property was also crime
Interesting, that's not all you forgot.
The presumption of innocence – being considered innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern countries. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
But hey only quote the part of the law you like, until a person is found guilty in a court of law, they are considered innocent even if they have thousands of copies of pirated software on their pc.
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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The Snowman @ 13th Oct 09:35PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Vamp,
The way you were attacked last night was absolutely disgusting. This has been discussed privately by several members of this forum.
As previously stated in the years I have known you I have known you as an honest, decent, hard working person fair with those you come into contact with.
Here is wishing you many more years of happy surfing.
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KodiacZiller @ 13th Oct 09:40PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Vampirefo :
possession of stolen property was also crime
Interesting, that's not all you forgot.
The presumption of innocence – being considered innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern countries. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
But hey only quote the part of the law you like, until a person is found guilty in a court of law, they are considered innocent even if they have thousands of copies of pirated software on their pc.
Only in America. Some posters here are British (and elsewhere) where they have no such rights.possession of stolen property was also crime
Interesting, that's not all you forgot.
The presumption of innocence – being considered innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern countries. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
But hey only quote the part of the law you like, until a person is found guilty in a court of law, they are considered innocent even if they have thousands of copies of pirated software on their pc.
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The Snowman @ 13th Oct 09:40PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Edited: so as not to cause an issue for the mods......gotta show respect to the mods.
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 10:32PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Vampirefo :
possession of stolen property was also crime
Interesting, that's not all you forgot.
The presumption of innocence – being considered innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern countries. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
But hey only quote the part of the law you like, until a person is found guilty in a court of law, they are considered innocent even if they have thousands of copies of pirated software on their pc.
Most definitely true, I was just stating that possession of stolen property was illegal (and gave an example of when its not and the follow up action in that case, ie return / removal of software from the system) in order to demonstrate that its not just the crackers who are engaged in illegal actions, but also those that use the cracked software produced by the crackers. possession of stolen property was also crime
Interesting, that's not all you forgot.
The presumption of innocence – being considered innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern countries. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
But hey only quote the part of the law you like, until a person is found guilty in a court of law, they are considered innocent even if they have thousands of copies of pirated software on their pc.
It can be rather easy to determine if a computer has pirated software installed (eg use of a common pirated key, modified binaries etc), and I would expect that someone pressing charges in such a matter would have collected said lawful evidence which might include obtaining a warrant to seize and inspect the system(s) involved (again which require supporting evidence to legally obtain a warrant).
Certainly in Canada you are presumed innocent until proven guilty, but in this matter proving that pirated software is installed is can be rather easy to do and thereby proving guilt as having cracked/pirated software is simply illegal, but it appears that a number of people are willing to engage in such illegal activities simply hoping that they will not be caught or prosecuted (its likely they will not be as there are ample bigger fish in the illegal sea of software piracy, but that still doesn't make it legal).
The way the law works in a number of countries would likely increase the consequences if you had thousands of pirated apps installed vs one.
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 10:40PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Vampirefo :
Yeah the religious people keep jumping in with praises and Amen's they forget one should not judge or he that is without sin cast the first stone, I love to watch these type of people.
I'm not sure what religion has to do with this, especially in the US as I thought there was a separation between church and state and laws were a matter of the state.Yeah the religious people keep jumping in with praises and Amen's they forget one should not judge or he that is without sin cast the first stone, I love to watch these type of people.
I suspect that most of the personal attempts to justify installing pirated software, mp3 etc wouldn't last long in a court of law and while most people likely couldn't honestly cast the first stone in a religious sense, it still doesn't change the fact that its illegal (meaning a lot of people might be willingly breaking the laws of their country).
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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Link Logger @ 13th Oct 11:00PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Frankly I find the whole thing sort of funny anymore. I look at the transition of the Western world to so called knowledge based industries and this I think has left the Western world in financial ruin and in huge debt to China/India/etc as they don't respect the 'rules' around knowledge based industries.
For example its likely your computer or major components of your computer were manufactured in China and you paid them for it. Now Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows, however most didn't pay Microsoft for it, so there goes X billion worth of trade back to the US, which I believe contributes to the overall trade deficit that the US has with China and is an example of one of many trade deficits caused by theft of 'knowledge' from western companies and ultimately countries.
This ultimately is a huge problem in that how do you fairly protect knowledge and maintain and monetize its financial value and a solution has to be found for this, otherwise the Western world better abandon knowledge based industry (and that would have some dire consequences for our standard of living) before we are all speaking Chinese (ie 'would you like rice with your dumplings?', becomes the business phrase of the US).
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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bicker @ 14th Oct 12:35AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
And the rationalizations for selfish and transgressive behaviors continues.
How about this? If you don't like knowledge based industry, then do without it. Don't patronize it. Don't rip-off its outputs. Avoid it entirely. Live in a hut if you have to. If you don't like it. Just leave it be and it'll leave you be.
If on the other hand you want to engage it, then live in accordance with the rules for it.
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NormanS @ 14th Oct 01:01AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
As you said, to you it's on par with it. But you are making the assumption that everyone shares your moral code, and that's simply not true. The rationales I'm offering up are meant to show the differences in moral codes, not nit-picking.
I'm glad that, for you, everything is so clear-cut. But don't generalize your POV to the rest of the population in this instance, because it's clear from the title of the thread that not everyone shares it.
Reminds me of one of my second cousins. I had just sprung for a lunch for her, and her kids. The clerk counted out the change wrong, leaving me with more money than I should have received; and her register short. So I corrected her, and returned the excess change. Boy was I stupid, and not with the contemporary moral codes; cousin actually told me that I was "too honorable for my own good". Also encountered this "new morality" while trying to keep an employers floor stock intact.As you said, to you it's on par with it. But you are making the assumption that everyone shares your moral code, and that's simply not true. The rationales I'm offering up are meant to show the differences in moral codes, not nit-picking.
I'm glad that, for you, everything is so clear-cut. But don't generalize your POV to the rest of the population in this instance, because it's clear from the title of the thread that not everyone shares it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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jefe @ 14th Oct 01:27AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by The Snowman :
jefe,
with all due respect........that dog just wont hunt. Without my taking sides in this discussion may I respectfully comment:
Respect is a two way street. But software vendors want it totally and complete all their way. Do you know of even one software vendor that will pay for damages caused to a consumer's computer because of his badly coded program......well ?
An when a consumer pays $50 for a vendors software an the vendor sticks a toolbar into the install setup but does not tell the consumer...........do you consider that the vendor is being honest by being so sneaky ?
An how about these software informer thingys so polulat with vendors these days.......informer is the correct word.....but who the hell is being informed ? Can an in-experience consumer know that answer ?
An when you install software an that little agreement pops up that you must agree to before the install will continues.......does it give complete advantage to the software vendor.......or the consumer ?
Now we can call it cars, peanuts...cabbage or whatever but the fact remains that software vendors brought this upon themselfs by mis-leading and cheating the consumer over many years.........they should have regulated themsels so as the innocent vendors would not pay the price for the bad vendors....but they didn't.......well guess what....the prirates sure as heck will regulate them.
A worker should be paided his just reward for his work........and the consumer should be sold decent software not crapware and the consumer should not be forced to accept outragous terms to use software........that leaves the consumer with no avenue to justice.
Its a two way street. The morals a person may have is that person's morals an no amount of force or debate will force any person to live by some else's morals.
I have to log out now an take care of some matters so can not reply again to anyone for some time.
oops...mis-spelled......but I got to logout.....outtta time
Snowman....jefe,
with all due respect........that dog just wont hunt. Without my taking sides in this discussion may I respectfully comment:
Respect is a two way street. But software vendors want it totally and complete all their way. Do you know of even one software vendor that will pay for damages caused to a consumer's computer because of his badly coded program......well ?
An when a consumer pays $50 for a vendors software an the vendor sticks a toolbar into the install setup but does not tell the consumer...........do you consider that the vendor is being honest by being so sneaky ?
An how about these software informer thingys so polulat with vendors these days.......informer is the correct word.....but who the hell is being informed ? Can an in-experience consumer know that answer ?
An when you install software an that little agreement pops up that you must agree to before the install will continues.......does it give complete advantage to the software vendor.......or the consumer ?
Now we can call it cars, peanuts...cabbage or whatever but the fact remains that software vendors brought this upon themselfs by mis-leading and cheating the consumer over many years.........they should have regulated themsels so as the innocent vendors would not pay the price for the bad vendors....but they didn't.......well guess what....the prirates sure as heck will regulate them.
A worker should be paided his just reward for his work........and the consumer should be sold decent software not crapware and the consumer should not be forced to accept outragous terms to use software........that leaves the consumer with no avenue to justice.
Its a two way street. The morals a person may have is that person's morals an no amount of force or debate will force any person to live by some else's morals.
I have to log out now an take care of some matters so can not reply again to anyone for some time.
oops...mis-spelled......but I got to logout.....outtta time
A user is not forced to accept any terms. I think the point has been made and made well that nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head making them use any piece of software. If the agreement isn't to your liking...don't agree to it. If the price is too high....don't buy it.
I recently bought a Tonka truck for my grandson. It broke in a matter of a couple of weeks. Does that give me the right to steal the next Tonka toy I want because I paid for a piece of junk last time? The big stick the buying public has is their purchasing power. If nobody buys a particular product, be it hardware or software, the creator of that product will have to adjust to please the buying public or go out of business. I will be much more wary before buying a Tonka product again any time soon.
As has also been pointed out in this thread, this is a legal as well as moral issue. And I, as well as others in this thread, am concerned that the end result of large scale piracy will just be more onerous licensing procedures for those of us who abide by the laws of the land.
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carpetshark3 @ 14th Oct 08:27AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Rawhide said "The agreement gives an advantage to no one. Read the agreement, then decide if you want to install or use the software. There are lots of other choices out there for you to use. Some are even free."
If you've got so far as the agreement - that usually means you have bought the software and opened it.
Now will any software company take it back because you refused the agreement? Does any software company have "buyer's remorse?"
I'm not condoning piracy - I'm just for software makers putting all this in a place where you can read it before purchasing. Otherwise, you are stuck and that isn't fair, either. I've downloaded some sample programs, read the TOS, and decided not to use them. Since they were free to try - that's not piracy and no loss to me, either.
CS
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dave @ 14th Oct 08:44AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by carpetshark3 :
If you've got so far as the agreement - that usually means you have bought the software and opened it.
Now will any software company take it back because you refused the agreement? Does any software company have "buyer's remorse?"
Assuming you're speaking about retail packaged software (which I infer from "opened it"), then "return it" means returning it to the point of sale. You can't get a direct refund from the software producer, because you didn't give them any money directly.If you've got so far as the agreement - that usually means you have bought the software and opened it.
Now will any software company take it back because you refused the agreement? Does any software company have "buyer's remorse?"
For Microsoft in particular, you are supposed to be able to do this, according to the standard EULA:
YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS
EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE
USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE,
DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE;
YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE
FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.
I have heard stories that some stores refuse to give you a refund. If so, that would seem to be a decision taken by store management and not by Microsoft. I've never encountered this personally (don't buy much software in stores, and for MS OSes I have a pretty good idea of the terms beforehand anyway), but I'd be waving paperwork in front of store management if I did.EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE
USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE,
DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE;
YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE
FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.
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rawwhide @ 14th Oct 09:34AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by The Snowman :
Edited: so as not to cause an issue for the mods......gotta show respect to the mods.
Where is the respect though. You insulted everyone on this forum with differing views and opinions in one of your previous posts.Edited: so as not to cause an issue for the mods......gotta show respect to the mods.
said by The Snowman :
Finally ! Finally !
DownTheShore and Dave......two people with the intellect...open mindedness...common sense.....and insight to view the issues...........
I basically take from that, I am sure other will as well, that you think that only downtheshore and dave are intelligent, open minded, have common sense, and insight on issues. Meaning the rest of everyone with views and opinions that you deem unworthy are stupid. Finally ! Finally !
DownTheShore and Dave......two people with the intellect...open mindedness...common sense.....and insight to view the issues...........
Wow!! Maybe this should be in an instant message but quite frankly I don't wish to discuss anything further with you. At least I will not be insulted further for voicing my opinions and views!!
Good Day.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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The Snowman @ 14th Oct 12:23PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Thank you for posting. You were on point to one of my questions.
"dave" read your post and replied........in fact: the microsoft EULA may be something other software vendors could look into.......an could possibly help them in their livelihood...........something productive could come of the exchange between you and "dave".
__________________________
The exchanging of thoughts (ideas) can produce wonderfuly results.......if given the chance.
Perhaps there are other readers of this topic who have thoughts (ideas) they would like to express. An possibly there are software vendors reading this topic in sincere interest of meeting their needs as well the needs of the consumers.
Unless both sides express themselfs the situation wont have the opportunity to change or improve.
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dave @ 14th Oct 12:44PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Well, don't get me wrong - the EULA still ought to be readable before you take home the box o' software.
As it stands now, you have to make two trips if it turns out you don't like the terms.
That's like not telling you what size the socks are in the store; you have to take them home to see if they fit.
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Phil @ 14th Oct 12:47PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Percent of pirated software running on my work PCs and home PCs is zero.
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Rexter @ 14th Oct 04:46PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Percent of pirated software running on my PC, 100%. Hey that averages out to 50%, pretty close to the 41% estimate! Works for me. :)
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Phil @ 14th Oct 05:01PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Something you can be proud of! :)
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bicker @ 14th Oct 05:17PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I actually find it pretty sad how proud some people I know are of how much selfishness and thievery they get away with. It looks no different to me than what the proverbial "downfall of civilized society" would look like.
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Phil @ 14th Oct 05:42PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
It is sad and hopefully as they mature they'll see the error of their ways.
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51200853 @ 14th Oct 05:51PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Phil :
It is sad and hopefully as they mature they'll see the error of their ways.
All I will say is keep dreaming.It is sad and hopefully as they mature they'll see the error of their ways.
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bicker @ 14th Oct 05:54PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Indeed. If anything, selfishness is on the rise -- markedly.
I don't think it is fair to call this immaturity. Mature people do bad things.
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rawwhide @ 14th Oct 06:05PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Indeed. If anything, selfishness is on the rise -- markedly.
I don't think it is fair to call this immaturity. Mature people do bad things.
True. After you buy an OS from Microsoft a gazillion times it gets under your skin. I can certainly understand why the selfishness is on the rise. As you get older and have to buy more and more OS's Microsoft will eventually start losing to Linux because of this.Indeed. If anything, selfishness is on the rise -- markedly.
I don't think it is fair to call this immaturity. Mature people do bad things.
win 3.0
win 3.1
win 3.11 fwg
win 95 95b
win 98 98se
win ME
win XP
win Vista
Win 7
Where does it end?
Multiply that by the number of computers you have(I have 5 that I use on a regular bases) and you see why people have started resorting to piracy. Not everyone has this sort of disposable income.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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bicker @ 14th Oct 06:24PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
However, that's an indefensible rationalization. If we don't have enough disposable income for something, then we do without it. The blame for one's economic struggles should be placed either on society, or one's self, or some combination of the two, depending on which political perspectives you resonate with -- but there is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers.
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NormanS @ 14th Oct 06:28PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by rawwhide :
Where does it end?
Multiply that by the number of computers you have(I have 5 that I use on a regular bases) and you see why people have started resorting to piracy. Not everyone has this sort of disposable income.
1971 Datsun 1600Where does it end?
Multiply that by the number of computers you have(I have 5 that I use on a regular bases) and you see why people have started resorting to piracy. Not everyone has this sort of disposable income.
1976 Dodge Colt
1983 Mitsubishi
1985 Dodge Ram 150
1989 Geo Metro
1993 Hyundai Elantra
Damn. I don't have the disposable income to keep replacing worn out cars. I guess I can understand why people resort to car theft.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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dave @ 14th Oct 07:07PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
You were expecting 17 years of operating system development for free when you paid for Windows 3.0 in 1992?
I could see the logic in expecting free upgrades if you were paying an annual rental fee, but not otherwise.
There is no reason why you ever needed to buy anything after Windows 3.0; it was you that decided you wanted something newer. Just as there was no reason why you ever needed to buy a newer computer after the first one; it likely continued to work as well as it did on the day you paid for it.
('scuse me, I need to call Honda for a free upgrade from my '96 Civic).
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Link Logger @ 14th Oct 07:20PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by rawwhide :
True. After you buy an OS from Microsoft a gazillion times it gets under your skin. I can certainly understand why the selfishness is on the rise. As you get older and have to buy more and more OS's Microsoft will eventually start losing to Linux because of this.
win 3.0
win 3.1
win 3.11 fwg
win 95 95b
win 98 98se
win ME
win XP
win Vista
Win 7
Where does it end?
Multiply that by the number of computers you have(I have 5 that I use on a regular bases) and you see why people have started resorting to piracy. Not everyone has this sort of disposable income.
Be happy your not a MAC user as they must have even more disposable income and I suspect an even higher percentage of them will be bailing to Linux sooner.True. After you buy an OS from Microsoft a gazillion times it gets under your skin. I can certainly understand why the selfishness is on the rise. As you get older and have to buy more and more OS's Microsoft will eventually start losing to Linux because of this.
win 3.0
win 3.1
win 3.11 fwg
win 95 95b
win 98 98se
win ME
win XP
win Vista
Win 7
Where does it end?
Multiply that by the number of computers you have(I have 5 that I use on a regular bases) and you see why people have started resorting to piracy. Not everyone has this sort of disposable income.
Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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mbaha @ 14th Oct 07:31PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I bet the amount of "pirated" music and other media is MUCH higher
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Don't remind of the things I said or I'll be hurt
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DownTheShore @ 14th Oct 07:53PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
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rawwhide @ 14th Oct 08:15PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
Or movies and shows.I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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DownTheShore @ 14th Oct 08:30PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
However, that's an indefensible rationalization. If we don't have enough disposable income for something, then we do without it. The blame for one's economic struggles should be placed either on society, or one's self, or some combination of the two, depending on which political perspectives you resonate with -- but there is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers.
Just continuing to play devil's advocate here, but don't you think that product and service providers have inflated the cost of their products in order to get an excessively larger cut of the over-inflated wealth that was out there prior to the crash? Without, I might say in many instances, actually producing an improved product worth the price they were overcharging. I would suggest that a good portion of what would have been their market were priced out of it by the providers' greed. Wouldn't that provide a rationale for some to not to view using pirated software as anything remotely on par with car theft?However, that's an indefensible rationalization. If we don't have enough disposable income for something, then we do without it. The blame for one's economic struggles should be placed either on society, or one's self, or some combination of the two, depending on which political perspectives you resonate with -- but there is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use cracked OS or security software products, simply on the basis of my viewing that as letting the fox into the hen house and defeating the whole purpose of operational security - irregardless of the legality of the use of it. But I can understand people who use Windows being tired of having their particular OS being eclipsed every few years by something that's supposed to be "so much better" and "correct all the problems" of what they're currently using. Is there any other major purchase we make that has such a short shelf-life?
(Edit: removed extraneous word to clarify meaning.)
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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DownTheShore @ 14th Oct 08:35PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by dave :
There is no reason why you ever needed to buy anything after Windows 3.0; it was you that decided you wanted something newer. Just as there was no reason why you ever needed to buy a newer computer after the first one; it likely continued to work as well as it did on the day you paid for it.
Actually, that's not true. Most of today's software won't run on 3.0, and I doubt that anyone's first computer could handle today's software sizes or graphics-intensive web pages. I know my Commodore 64 couldn't. ;) :DThere is no reason why you ever needed to buy anything after Windows 3.0; it was you that decided you wanted something newer. Just as there was no reason why you ever needed to buy a newer computer after the first one; it likely continued to work as well as it did on the day you paid for it.
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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bicker @ 14th Oct 08:47PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
Your reasonable and responsible response in protest of that, if you are so inclined, is to do without their products and services. There is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers. Just pass them by. said by bicker :
However, that's an indefensible rationalization. If we don't have enough disposable income for something, then we do without it. The blame for one's economic struggles should be placed either on society, or one's self, or some combination of the two, depending on which political perspectives you resonate with -- but there is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers.
Just continuing to play devil's advocate here, but don't you think that product and service providers have inflated the cost of their products in order to get an excessively larger cut of the over-inflated wealth that was out there prior to the crash?However, that's an indefensible rationalization. If we don't have enough disposable income for something, then we do without it. The blame for one's economic struggles should be placed either on society, or one's self, or some combination of the two, depending on which political perspectives you resonate with -- but there is no rational foundation for taking one's frustrations about one's economic struggles out on product or service providers.
said by DownTheShore :
Without, I might say in many instances, actually producing an improved product worth the price they were overcharging.
Then don't buy it.Without, I might say in many instances, actually producing an improved product worth the price they were overcharging.
said by DownTheShore :
I would suggest that a good portion of what would have been their market were priced out of it by the providers' greed.
If you want to call it greed, then paint yourself (as the customer) with the blame: The customer is responsible for that "greed" if you make the purchase.I would suggest that a good portion of what would have been their market were priced out of it by the providers' greed.
said by DownTheShore :
Wouldn't that provide a rationale for some to not to view using pirated software as anything remotely not on par with car theft?
Never. Not even a little. That's a child's argument. "He made me push him down the stairs!" Ludicrous.Wouldn't that provide a rationale for some to not to view using pirated software as anything remotely not on par with car theft?
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rawwhide @ 14th Oct 09:04PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by dave :
You were expecting 17 years of operating system development for free when you paid for Windows 3.0 in 1992?
No, but they could have rolled up 3.1 and 3.11 into service packs. ME could have been rolled up into a service pack for for 98se. Vista should have been rolled up into a service pack for XP. See where im going here. How long do you expect to drive your car when you out right buy it new. I expect to drive a new car for 6-8 years before having to purchase a new one. Looking at a time line of the releases of windows »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_···releases you will see that releases of about three years or less until vista. XP to Vista was 5 years and they were getting a more realistic release time table. In addition, Microsoft should separate things from the OS like IE, WMP, and DirectX to name a few. Microsoft forces people to upgrade there OS in order to get newer versions of there other products like DirectX. They could have released DirectX 10 for XP, but didn't, to force at the very least gamers into future releases of OS's. I can see why they couldn't with DirectX 11. Maybe you can see where im coming from though? Im not really bashing Microsoft only, software companies are guilty too. Software companies only write software for the current release of the OS. Maybe even some of the programming languages are to blame as well.You were expecting 17 years of operating system development for free when you paid for Windows 3.0 in 1992?
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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Its a Secret @ 14th Oct 09:09PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
XP has been going since October 2001, and people still love it! I know I do.
Maybe I can get Adobe to rollup Photoshop from V5 to infinity. Oh wait, they do! It's called upgrades...
--
"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous
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NormanS @ 14th Oct 09:17PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
About 50 tunes, or so. The twelve tracks of the "A.D. Police 'The Ripper'" sound track. Out of print when I was searching for the CD. Not reprinted since it went out of print. And I still intend to buy the CD, if I can find it. Thirty-four tracks of the two-CD album for the "Maison Ikkoku Extra Songs" albums. Limited edition when released, and no reprint available.I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
I am not saying it isn't piracy. I am not saying it is a legal excuse. I am saying I'd buy each, if it was available for sale.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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dave @ 14th Oct 09:20PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
Actually, that's not true. Most of today's software won't run on 3.0, and I doubt that anyone's first computer could handle today's software sizes or graphics-intensive web pages. I know my Commodore 64 couldn't. ;) :D
So? The OS and hardware still did exactly what they did in 1992. Expecting them to do things, for free, that they didn't do originally is not reasonable.Actually, that's not true. Most of today's software won't run on 3.0, and I doubt that anyone's first computer could handle today's software sizes or graphics-intensive web pages. I know my Commodore 64 couldn't. ;) :D
On the other hand, Adobe could if they so chose continue to develop new versions of Photoshop for Windows 3.0.
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DownTheShore @ 14th Oct 09:42PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by NormanS :
I am not saying it isn't piracy. I am not saying it is a legal excuse. I am saying I'd buy each, if it was available for sale.
Thank you for being honest.said by DownTheShore :
I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
About 50 tunes, or so. The twelve tracks of the "A.D. Police 'The Ripper'" sound track. Out of print when I was searching for the CD. Not reprinted since it went out of print. And I still intend to buy the CD, if I can find it. Thirty-four tracks of the two-CD album for the "Maison Ikkoku Extra Songs" albums. Limited edition when released, and no reprint available.I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
I am not saying it isn't piracy. I am not saying it is a legal excuse. I am saying I'd buy each, if it was available for sale.
"I am not saying it isn't piracy. I am not saying it is a legal excuse. I am saying I'd buy each, if
Sorry - couldn't resist correcting it, for those using another rationale. ;) :D
But you see how you rationalized getting something that you wanted, that someone somewhere had, but which you couldn't buy yourself at the moment you wanted it. You could have said (and believe me, I'm not casting stones here) "Oh well, I'll just wait until I find an out-of-print copy for sale somewhere, sometime."
--
Patriotism is not waving a flag, it is living the ideals
Today's GOP Leadership: Idiots, Liars, and Seditionists
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mbaha @ 14th Oct 10:52PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
gold star for you!!
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The Snowman @ 14th Oct 11:01PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Actually there is a website where out-of-print stuff can be legally downloaded........and movies that have become "open source"...I am not sure if thats what the proper term is for those...but everything is legal.......last I looked which was some time back.....there were 1600 movies that could be legally downloaded.....most were very old but there were a few not so old.
Of course not everyone would be happy with older stuff, nevertheless, there is entertainment legally available.......things like the Three Stooges......lil abner......etc. Ive never looked to notice any software.....which of course most likely there is none.
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51200853 @ 14th Oct 11:03PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
For the record, i have 110% of pirated software. The last 10% are those program that i downloaded because i could but never installed them.
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Dude111 @ 14th Oct 11:08PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Ah man!!
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dave @ 14th Oct 11:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by rawwhide :
I expect to drive a new car for 6-8 years before having to purchase a new one.
XP was released in 2002 (or maybe late 2001). It's now late 2009. 7 to 8 years. I'm still running XP. What is it that would somehow stop me from running XP?I expect to drive a new car for 6-8 years before having to purchase a new one.
(And I don't have to pay for maintenance to XP, unlike when bits fall off my old Civic).
You're confusing "wanting a new OS", possibly influenced by "there's a fab new feature on the new OS" or "there's a program that doesn't run on the old OS". This is about as reasonable as me complaining that my pre-2000 Civic lacks an iPod interface.
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51200853 @ 14th Oct 11:14PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by dave :
(And I don't have to pay for maintenance to XP, unlike when bits fall off my old Civic).
You're confusing "wanting a new OS", possibly influenced by "there's a fab new feature on the new OS" or "there's a program that doesn't run on the old OS". This is about as reasonable as me complaining that my pre-2000 Civic lacks an iPod interface.
What would stop Microsoft from turning off authentication server for xp and not providing patch to remove it from xp? So next time you need to reinstall it, you will not be able to get it activated.said by rawwhide :
I expect to drive a new car for 6-8 years before having to purchase a new one.
XP was released in 2002 (or maybe late 2001). It's now late 2009. 7 to 8 years. I'm still running XP. What is it that would somehow stop me from running XP?I expect to drive a new car for 6-8 years before having to purchase a new one.
(And I don't have to pay for maintenance to XP, unlike when bits fall off my old Civic).
You're confusing "wanting a new OS", possibly influenced by "there's a fab new feature on the new OS" or "there's a program that doesn't run on the old OS". This is about as reasonable as me complaining that my pre-2000 Civic lacks an iPod interface.
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dave @ 14th Oct 11:21PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by 51200853 :
What would stop Microsoft from turning off authentication server for xp and not providing patch to remove it from xp? So next time you need to reinstall it, you will not be able to get it activated.
Nothing, but they said they wouldn't do that. No sense in worrying about what might happen, especially after being told it won't. What would stop Microsoft from turning off authentication server for xp and not providing patch to remove it from xp? So next time you need to reinstall it, you will not be able to get it activated.
(Don't read this as unconditional trust, simply that I fail to see much interest in discussing possibilities without evidence).
Also, I haven't reinstalled the OS since I got the computer, so it's unlikely I'll need to, ever.
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Kearnstd @ 14th Oct 11:42PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
sad thing is in the eyes of the record industry if you have pushed record on a boombox while a favorite tune was playing on the radio then you have pirated.I would guess that too, and wonder how many here who would not pirate software have downloaded unpurchased music sometime in their lives. ;)
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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Blackbird @ 15th Oct 01:11AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by dave :
...XP was released in 2002 (or maybe late 2001). It's now late 2009. 7 to 8 years. I'm still running XP. What is it that would somehow stop me from running XP? ...
Actually, what stops you will ultimately be XP-compatibility of hardware and software stuff, especially replacements. Hardware becomes a problem because the items currently in a store only carry drivers back one or two OS versions... ditto for software OS compatibility. Right now, all these items are rated for XP - but in a few years, as Win7 approaches midlife and Vista becomes yesterday's news, XP will start to fall off the box labels. Then such mundane things as updating security software, replacing a failed NIC card, or even obtaining a hi-res laser mouse can become epic quests. ...XP was released in 2002 (or maybe late 2001). It's now late 2009. 7 to 8 years. I'm still running XP. What is it that would somehow stop me from running XP? ...
I'm heading towards 12 years on this Win98 computer, and those are all issues I've had to deal with increasingly. I realized in mid-2006 (when the very last Win98 updates toppled off the MS assembly line and staggered into my computer) that things would soon change with regard to availability of Win98-compatible stuff... but I was surprised that within 6-9 months, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack to find even the simplest items. Win98-compatible USB sticks suddenly evaporated off store shelves, for example - though I found a horde of 1/2 Gb units in the sale section of a Wal-Mart (of all places) and snapped them all up.
Not that I'm complaining... this old beast works extremely well as an Internet appliance and some old Lotus-style and Excel97 math computing and a bit of word processing. And it's kind of cool watching a computer outlive its mortality table. And for everything else that it doesn't do, I've got newer units...
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...
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SlickEnW @ 15th Oct 02:02AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
Just continuing to play devil's advocate here, but don't you think that product and service providers have inflated the cost of their products in order to get an excessively larger cut of the over-inflated wealth that was out there prior to the crash? Without, I might say in many instances, actually producing an improved product worth the price they were overcharging. I would suggest that a good portion of what would have been their market were priced out of it by the providers' greed. Wouldn't that provide a rationale for some to not to view using pirated software as anything remotely on par with car theft?
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use cracked OS or security software products, simply on the basis of my viewing that as letting the fox into the hen house and defeating the whole purpose of operational security - irregardless of the legality of the use of it. But I can understand people who use Windows being tired of having their particular OS being eclipsed every few years by something that's supposed to be "so much better" and "correct all the problems" of what they're currently using. Is there any other major purchase we make that has such a short shelf-life?
Last I heard the market sets the price for goods and services. If Microsoft *felt* that their OS was worth 1 billion dollars per license, they would probably go out of business and people would find alternatives. People may feel things are inelastic (can't live without) but given enough disincentive they will go somewhere else. We only need food, water and basic sustenance to survive. Computers and tech don't qualify, so no vendor has the world by the balls. MS could go bankrupt tomorrow and someone would grab the source code and create a new startup if there was sufficient demand. Just continuing to play devil's advocate here, but don't you think that product and service providers have inflated the cost of their products in order to get an excessively larger cut of the over-inflated wealth that was out there prior to the crash? Without, I might say in many instances, actually producing an improved product worth the price they were overcharging. I would suggest that a good portion of what would have been their market were priced out of it by the providers' greed. Wouldn't that provide a rationale for some to not to view using pirated software as anything remotely on par with car theft?
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use cracked OS or security software products, simply on the basis of my viewing that as letting the fox into the hen house and defeating the whole purpose of operational security - irregardless of the legality of the use of it. But I can understand people who use Windows being tired of having their particular OS being eclipsed every few years by something that's supposed to be "so much better" and "correct all the problems" of what they're currently using. Is there any other major purchase we make that has such a short shelf-life?
And anywho thats the nature of the biz. Same as drugs that only mask the symptoms for a short while. No one is up in arms that my allergy medicine only works for 24 hours. And then to think I have to buy MORE? OUTRAGEOUS :D. I would say OS's are more or less a poor example. I agree with you on bug fixes, as the vendor should provide a quality experience, but new features and finding more effecient ways to do things, these technologies don't come out of nowhere.
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NormanS @ 15th Oct 03:17AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
But you see how you rationalized getting something that you wanted, that someone somewhere had, but which you couldn't buy yourself at the moment you wanted it.
Yet there is software I would like to have that I don't have because it is readily available ... for a price I am not willing to pay.But you see how you rationalized getting something that you wanted, that someone somewhere had, but which you couldn't buy yourself at the moment you wanted it.
My rationale is not based on, "They're ripping me off, so I will stick it to them". If I followed that line of thinking, I'd have pirated the first, and third volumes of the soundtrack CD, and all three OVA volumes. I've paid my dues for most of the music I have; and at 2x the going U.S. price for much of it (that is the typical Japanese price for the goods).
WRT software, if it is something I really, really need (or want), I'll find a way to buy it. I've got a licensed copy of NJStar Communicator, a CJK editor which costs $99 U.S. And I will spring for a second license for the laptop I just got, when I get it working again.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 15th Oct 03:21AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Kearnstd :
sad thing is in the eyes of the record industry if you have pushed record on a boombox while a favorite tune was playing on the radio then you have pirated.
It is much worse than that. In their eyes, ever .mp3 track on my computer is "pirated", because I ripped them; even though I legally own the original media I ripped them from.sad thing is in the eyes of the record industry if you have pushed record on a boombox while a favorite tune was playing on the radio then you have pirated.
If Hollywood could, they would find a way to charge us a nickel every time we played one of their tunes, even if from one of their CDs that they sold us.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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bicker @ 15th Oct 07:26AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
And they'd be justified in doing so. Remember, before you buy it, the content is theirs to do with what they wish. They own it entirely. What they make available for sale is up to them, and under the terms and conditions that they choose to include in the offer. Your power is in the ability to decline any offers with terms and conditions that you find unacceptable.
If you're buying a house, and the seller has a tenet added to the sales contract giving them a durable right of way -- effectively the right to trespass on your property forever -- that is perfectly legal, and you are requires to respect it, if you choose to accept the contract. If you don't like that, then don't buy the house! Decline the offer. Make a counter-offer (subject, then, to their approval, but they could assuredly decline if they wish). Or wait for them to change the terms of the original offer.
But you don't get to accept the offer and then decide which of the terms and conditions you're going to respect and which you will not.
You don't. That will never be a defensible position. It's strictly a selfish and self-centered perspective and has no basis in the law, or ethics, in any way.
You may not have realized that you made an important point in your message: That the biggest problem in this space is the difficulty in getting consumers to live up to their obligations vis a vis the terms and conditions of the content that they purchase license to. You talk about "If Hollywood could..." as if that where a transgression, when in reality the shame of all this is that they cannot effectively rely on voluntary compliance, and therefore as you asserted need to try to find a way to make sure consumers do what they are supposed to do, what they are morally obligated to do, what they have implicitly agreed to do.
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EUS @ 15th Oct 11:33AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Relating to O/S, and office suites...
When micorsoft publicly states that they would rather people not pay and use their software, than to see people use Mac, or linux, what are the expectations?
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Link Logger @ 15th Oct 11:38AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by EUS :
Relating to O/S, and office suites...
When micorsoft publicly states that they would rather people not pay and use their software, than to see people use Mac, or linux, what are the expectations?
URL or link?Relating to O/S, and office suites...
When micorsoft publicly states that they would rather people not pay and use their software, than to see people use Mac, or linux, what are the expectations?
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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EUS @ 15th Oct 11:43AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
the link is on this site, from 8-12 months ago.
Maybe longer.
As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.
—Bill Gates[4]
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Link Logger @ 15th Oct 12:25PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by EUS :
the link is on this site, from 8-12 months ago.
Maybe longer.
As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.
—Bill Gates[4]
Actually this is rather funny as the quote was from June or July 1998 and to put it in context:the link is on this site, from 8-12 months ago.
Maybe longer.
As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.
—Bill Gates[4]
quote:
Gates shed some light on his own hard-nosed business philosophy. "Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software," he said. "Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
»news.cnet.com/2100-1023-212942.html
Well its the next decade and the Chinese still aren't paying and in fact I'd say they pretty well own the USA (and a lot of other countries) for the next X years, so I'd have to say then the Chinese have proven to be even harder nosed businessmen then Gates thought (and I'm betting they are buying way more the 3 million computers a year, and still not buying software).
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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NormanS @ 15th Oct 02:35PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
You may not have realized that you made an important point in your message: That the biggest problem in this space is the difficulty in getting consumers to live up to their obligations vis a vis the terms and conditions of the content that they purchase license to. You talk about "If Hollywood could..." as if that where a transgression, when in reality the shame of all this is that they cannot effectively rely on voluntary compliance, and therefore as you asserted need to try to find a way to make sure consumers do what they are supposed to do, what they are morally obligated to do, what they have implicitly agreed to do.
Thing is, there are no explicit "terms of license" on any of those CDs I bought, requiring anything of me other than that I not distribute copies of the work. I definitely don't do that. The expectation is that I only play the work on a device which I own, and that I do. There is nothing in the terms on the CD which prohibits me from transferring the content to different media (and the courts don't seem to be willing to rule that as illegal behavior), or using a media player to distribute the work within my home for my own personal use.You may not have realized that you made an important point in your message: That the biggest problem in this space is the difficulty in getting consumers to live up to their obligations vis a vis the terms and conditions of the content that they purchase license to. You talk about "If Hollywood could..." as if that where a transgression, when in reality the shame of all this is that they cannot effectively rely on voluntary compliance, and therefore as you asserted need to try to find a way to make sure consumers do what they are supposed to do, what they are morally obligated to do, what they have implicitly agreed to do.
I for damned sure won't buy any media which restricts me from setting up the content on the compute downstairs so I can tap the content anywhere within my premises on my LAN. (I am not using the radio in the D-Link DIR-655, so lots of luck trying to tap my LAN).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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bicker @ 15th Oct 03:14PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted. Many consumers choose to define copying their own way, conveniently such that the copying they want to do is magically covered. :uhh: These consumers choose to excuse the copying they want to do, as if you have rights to do it, when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
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51200853 @ 15th Oct 04:05PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted. Many consumers choose to define copying their own way, conveniently such that the copying they want to do is magically covered. :uhh: These consumers choose to excuse the copying they want to do, as if you have rights to do it, when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
Making backup copy is permited by law regardless of what cd might indicateThe CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted. Many consumers choose to define copying their own way, conveniently such that the copying they want to do is magically covered. :uhh: These consumers choose to excuse the copying they want to do, as if you have rights to do it, when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
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bicker @ 15th Oct 04:16PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Incorrect.
You're thinking of a law that allows a backup copy of computer software. There is an explicit and singular exception for computer software. It does not apply to anything else (like music or video).
Find the law you think exists; post a citation. You'll find that you're mistaken, and unable to find the law you mistakenly think exists.
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The Snowman @ 15th Oct 04:46PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
*** pay particular attention to the word: "BYPASSING" ***
»www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?···8&page=4
_______________________
Music, MP3s, and Backing up your CDs There is no law against converting your legitimately bought CDs, cassettes or LPs into MP3 files, however.
Since the introduction of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, some major music distributors have been adding various forms of copy protection to their audio CDs, often designed to make them unplayable in computer CD drives. Though these methods can generally be easily bypassed, doing so would of course be a violation of the DMCA, and thus of copyright.
_____________________________
When can you backup legally?
»www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?···8&page=3
________________________
Movies and DVDs
»www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?···8&page=5
________________________
Beginners Guides: Legally Copying Software and Music
»www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?···8&page=1
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The Snowman @ 15th Oct 04:51PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Copieing to an external drive........USB Stick.........DOES NOT VIOLATE ANY LETTER OF THE LAW.......because Nothing is actually BYPASSED> the copied product is copied ENTIRELY.
It should also be noted....making an IMAGE does not bypass anything.
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KodiacZiller @ 15th Oct 04:51PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by SlickEnW :
Last I heard the market sets the price for goods and services. If Microsoft *felt* that their OS was worth 1 billion dollars per license, they would probably go out of business and people would find alternatives. People may feel things are inelastic (can't live without) but given enough disincentive they will go somewhere else. We only need food, water and basic sustenance to survive. Computers and tech don't qualify, so no vendor has the world by the balls. MS could go bankrupt tomorrow and someone would grab the source code and create a new startup if there was sufficient demand.
Why would anyone grab the source code to the horror that is Windows when there are already numerous (and better) alternatives out there, some of which can be had for free? Last I heard the market sets the price for goods and services. If Microsoft *felt* that their OS was worth 1 billion dollars per license, they would probably go out of business and people would find alternatives. People may feel things are inelastic (can't live without) but given enough disincentive they will go somewhere else. We only need food, water and basic sustenance to survive. Computers and tech don't qualify, so no vendor has the world by the balls. MS could go bankrupt tomorrow and someone would grab the source code and create a new startup if there was sufficient demand.
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Rexter @ 15th Oct 06:13PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
That's right! I hate it what they go out and make something better! It makes me feel so pissed off! All that hard work, and what do we get? A better product! I hate it.
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Rexter @ 15th Oct 06:18PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by DownTheShore :
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use cracked OS or security software products, simply on the basis of my viewing that as letting the fox into the hen house and defeating the whole purpose of operational security -
Yep. I use pirated anti-virus programs to scan for legitimate licenses. I hate it when those damn legitimate software titles sneak into my system!Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use cracked OS or security software products, simply on the basis of my viewing that as letting the fox into the hen house and defeating the whole purpose of operational security -
--
With every new wave of optimism, or pessimism, we are ready to abandon history, and time tested principles, but we cling tenaciously and unquestioningly to our prejudices. (Benjamin Graham)
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Rexter @ 15th Oct 06:23PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted....... ......when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
Hey, lets play a game! I'll pretend I give a rats ass what the content owner wants, and you pretend to listen.... check this out...The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted....... ......when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
"That's terrible! Those bastards! I would never ever, ever never do that kind of thing personally, but that's just me."
--
With every new wave of optimism, or pessimism, we are ready to abandon history, and time tested principles, but we cling tenaciously and unquestioningly to our prejudices. (Benjamin Graham)
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bicker @ 15th Oct 06:29PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Despicable.
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Kearnstd @ 15th Oct 06:33PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
the DMCA is expendable in the name of more convenient use of the media. if a buy a DVD there is nothing wrong in ripping a DIVX to my media server so i can plug an HDMI from my laptop into another TV and watch the movie there.. the rights owners got their payment when i slid my Visa at the bestbuy.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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Vampirefo @ 15th Oct 07:43PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Rexter :
I agree with this completely, And it's a main reason I don't care what happens to software none at all, if authors remove the BS "EULA" I might start listening to their whining about getting their software stolen.said by bicker :
The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted....... ......when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
Hey, lets play a game! I'll pretend I give a rats ass what the content owner wants, and you pretend to listen.... check this out...The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted....... ......when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
Or write a simple EULA saying something like you bought this program, it's yours so do with it what you will.
Cause in reality this is what we all do, even the bible thumpers in this thread, hell even Microsoft, they do it all the time, MS was caught violating the gpl license and none of the bible thumpers in this thread called MS thieves or nothing like that.
Nor was MS called greedy, selfish or any bad name they were praised lol, for submitting code to the open source community, the same code they were using to violate the gpl license.
What's good for one is good for the others, If MS doesn't follow license none else should either.
--
Best Regards
Vampirefo
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Vampirefo @ 15th Oct 07:55PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Link Logger :
Frankly I find the whole thing sort of funny anymore. I look at the transition of the Western world to so called knowledge based industries and this I think has left the Western world in financial ruin and in huge debt to China/India/etc as they don't respect the 'rules' around knowledge based industries.
For example its likely your computer or major components of your computer were manufactured in China and you paid them for it. Now Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows, however most didn't pay Microsoft for it, so there goes X billion worth of trade back to the US, which I believe contributes to the overall trade deficit that the US has with China and is an example of one of many trade deficits caused by theft of 'knowledge' from western companies and ultimately countries.
This ultimately is a huge problem in that how do you fairly protect knowledge and maintain and monetize its financial value and a solution has to be found for this, otherwise the Western world better abandon knowledge based industry (and that would have some dire consequences for our standard of living) before we are all speaking Chinese (ie 'would you like rice with your dumplings?', becomes the business phrase of the US).
Blake
This is a possibility, I really don't follow China much, Do you have any links that states "Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows" Just curios how many people from China even know what windows is.Frankly I find the whole thing sort of funny anymore. I look at the transition of the Western world to so called knowledge based industries and this I think has left the Western world in financial ruin and in huge debt to China/India/etc as they don't respect the 'rules' around knowledge based industries.
For example its likely your computer or major components of your computer were manufactured in China and you paid them for it. Now Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows, however most didn't pay Microsoft for it, so there goes X billion worth of trade back to the US, which I believe contributes to the overall trade deficit that the US has with China and is an example of one of many trade deficits caused by theft of 'knowledge' from western companies and ultimately countries.
This ultimately is a huge problem in that how do you fairly protect knowledge and maintain and monetize its financial value and a solution has to be found for this, otherwise the Western world better abandon knowledge based industry (and that would have some dire consequences for our standard of living) before we are all speaking Chinese (ie 'would you like rice with your dumplings?', becomes the business phrase of the US).
Blake
Seeing they use a UNIX-based operating system and used a UNIX-based operating system to hack over 100 countries, or something like that, perhaps they just downloaded windows to find vulnerabilities in windows so hacking it would be easier.
»www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511316,00.html
Here is China computer system
»en.kioskea.net/actualites/china-···ite.php3
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylin
This isn't windows.
--
Best Regards
Vampirefo
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Shriyash @ 15th Oct 10:06PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Find the law you think exists; post a citation. You'll find that you're mistaken, and unable to find the law you mistakenly think exists.
Seriously, why do you care? Find the law you think exists; post a citation. You'll find that you're mistaken, and unable to find the law you mistakenly think exists.
These old draconian 'laws' dont stand up to common sense.
You actually think its a 'crime' if someone backs up his CD collection or rips his/her purchased CD's songs to mp3's?
You think that they should be punished to the 'full extent of the law'?
At what point will you realize that you are bending over backwards for an industry that wants to just rape you out of everything you got?
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The Snowman @ 15th Oct 10:23PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
At first blush it would appear that the "righteous indignation" camp has done pitifully poor in this topic failing entirely to get "converts". However, a few positive points resulted for the close minds of the righteous indignation camp.
Since I do not do p2p or warez I would most likely not have discovered the PROPER way to LEGALLY copy Cd's, Dvd"s, etc.
Avoid bypassing the encryption, avoid removing the DRM. an behold the rightousness of "copieing".
WoW......for sure a few readers of this topic may appreciate that understanding.
*** could it at all be possible that the Media Industry does not want the Consumer to be of this understanding ***
Also, it would be curiously revealing to know if anyone has ever been sued or presecuted for making an "image" of a software product.
___________________________
So often in forums a small group of individuals enter into an open discussion only to attemp to force their ideas upon others by brow-beating......by speaking down to others.......or to walk on the "free thought" of others like it was just so much dirt. Free Thought can never wear chains.
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NormanS @ 15th Oct 10:48PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Vampirefo :
Cause in reality this is what we all do, even the bible thumpers in this thread ...
Did I miss the poster who quoted from the Bible?Cause in reality this is what we all do, even the bible thumpers in this thread ...
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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Link Logger @ 15th Oct 11:07PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Vampirefo :
This is a possibility, I really don't follow China much, Do you have any links that states "Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows" Just curios how many people from China even know what windows is.
Seeing they use a UNIX-based operating system and used a UNIX-based operating system to hack over 100 countries, or something like that, perhaps they just downloaded windows to find vulnerabilities in windows so hacking it would be easier.
»www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511316,00.html
Here is China computer system
»en.kioskea.net/actualites/china-···ite.php3
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylin
This isn't windows.
»gs.statcounter.com/#os-CN-monthl···0907-barThis is a possibility, I really don't follow China much, Do you have any links that states "Chinese businesses and citizens of China like to use Microsoft Windows" Just curios how many people from China even know what windows is.
Seeing they use a UNIX-based operating system and used a UNIX-based operating system to hack over 100 countries, or something like that, perhaps they just downloaded windows to find vulnerabilities in windows so hacking it would be easier.
»www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511316,00.html
Here is China computer system
»en.kioskea.net/actualites/china-···ite.php3
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylin
This isn't windows.
Top 5 OS's used in China
Windows XP 93.05%
Windows Vista 5.55%
Windows 2003 0.39%
Windows 2000 0.34%
Windows 7 0.28%
Other 0.39%
And from »global.bsa.org/globalpiracy2008/···2008.pdf China's piracy rate is 80%.
Kylin must be a very well kept secret in China as its not even a tiny blip on the radar.
Now given China has the largest number of internet users of any country in the world (338 Million compared to 228 Million in the US »www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm), lets say there are 5 users to every computer in China (guessing here, but trying to be generous) such that there are say 67.6 Million computers in China, and almost 63 Million of those are running XP. Now lets say that Microsoft charges $40 (again wanting to be very conservative here in order to make a point), and given a piracy rate of 80%, that means China has stiff a US company of just over two billion dollars, now toss other software like Office and China is making out pretty good on this piracy thing.
Now in August 2009 (»www.census.gov/foreign-trade/bal···tml#2009) the US had a monthly trade deficit of about 20 Billion dollars with China, you might want that piracy money to even things out a bit.
Now from the did you know department. The largest overall trading partner with the US isn't China, its Canada but Canada tends to import almost as much stuff as they export to the US such that there isn't a huge trade deficit (good trading partner) »www.census.gov/foreign-trade/sta···8cm.html
Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool
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fatness @ 15th Oct 11:32PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted. Many consumers choose to define copying their own way, conveniently such that the copying they want to do is magically covered. :uhh: These consumers choose to excuse the copying they want to do, as if you have rights to do it, when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
Content owners are sometimes wrong about what rights consumers have. For example, this ridiculous lawsuit brought by ASCAP which wanted royalties to be paid every time a ringtone was played: »www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/1···oncerts/The CDs indicate that "unauthorized copying" is not permitted. Many consumers choose to define copying their own way, conveniently such that the copying they want to do is magically covered. :uhh: These consumers choose to excuse the copying they want to do, as if you have rights to do it, when the content owner never granted them the rights to do the kind of copying they intend to do.
The lawsuit was just dismissed by the judge.
quote:
While ASCAP’s much-ridiculed argument in the case was a legal long shot, copyright chaos might have ensued had the royalty-collecting group actually prevailed.
“The ruling is an important victory for consumers, making it clear that playing music in public, when done without any commercial purpose, does not infringe copyright,” wrote Fred von Lohmann, a copyright attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
ASCAP was suing AT&T and Verizon in a New York federal court, seeking more revenue for its members.
--
"That blast came from the pants! That thing's operational!"
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bicker @ 16th Oct 05:57AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Shriyash :
Seriously, why do you care?
Because I care about our society. Seriously, why do you care?
said by Shriyash :
These old draconian 'laws' dont stand up to common sense.
Of course they do. What they don't stand up is to some people's selfishness.These old draconian 'laws' dont stand up to common sense.
said by Shriyash :
At what point will you realize that you are bending over backwards for an industry that wants to just rape you out of everything you got?
All of these vicious accusations you've made are fabrications of your own avarice.At what point will you realize that you are bending over backwards for an industry that wants to just rape you out of everything you got?
Morality used to be pretty common in this country. Now, evidently, it isn't.
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bicker @ 16th Oct 08:59AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by fatness :
Content owners are sometimes wrong about what rights consumers have.
And so when they're wrong, those specific prohibitions can be ignored. However, that does not obviate the vast majority of assertion of property rights which the content owners are "right" about. The isolated instances you refer to don't excuse the callous and self-centered greed on the part of consumers -- they're not "customers" at that point because they violate the law and the terms and conditions of purchases -- they're just "consumers", people who consume, who take, without regard to what they're promised. Content owners are sometimes wrong about what rights consumers have.
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fatness @ 16th Oct 10:10AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Prior to that ruling, did you support ASCAP's position?
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bicker @ 16th Oct 11:15AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I think you missed the point of what I wrote. Read it again.
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Kearnstd @ 16th Oct 12:59PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
i still dont see what is wrong with personal coping of media for personal or strictly in family use.
for example a family with kids and a van with DVD, it makes good money sense to bring copies in the van so if they get damaged you are not out the 15-20 bucks. someone leaves one in the open and it gets sun killed, no biggie its a DVD-R just burn a new one when ya get home. same goes for CDs, having copies in your car mean if someone breaks into the car, you dont loose your collection.
or what about ripping CDs to MP3 players? i know that is 100% legal because every company that makes a player provides tools to do so.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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The Snowman @ 16th Oct 01:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
merriam-webster:
Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritçs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective
_____________________
It would appear there is a poster who climbed upon an Apple Box preaching morality.........an yet, when faced with having to accept an opposing view rendered by a Federal Court.........FAILED to do so an rejects said rendered court ruling......by in-effectively attemptimg to munipulate twisted words to suit his own needs.
Said poster does what he claims to oppose others doing.
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fatness @ 16th Oct 01:28PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I did read it again. Your point is that consumers should do what companies tell them to do, and pay what companies tell them to pay, for whatever reason. And that consumers are basically selfish whining children who should shut up and comply, while companies are entitled to do what they want. Even when a court proves them (the company) wrong you say your point remains the same.
You didn't answer my question:
quote:
Prior to that ruling, did you support ASCAP's position?
I'm guessing from the following exchange that you supported ASCAP's position:
said by NormanS :
If Hollywood could, they would find a way to charge us a nickel every time we played one of their tunes, even if from one of their CDs that they sold us.
If Hollywood could, they would find a way to charge us a nickel every time we played one of their tunes, even if from one of their CDs that they sold us.
said by bicker :
And they'd be justified in doing so.
And they'd be justified in doing so.
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bicker @ 16th Oct 02:00PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by fatness :
I did read it again. Your point is that consumers should do what companies tell them to do, and pay what companies tell them to pay, for whatever reason.
No, that isn't my point. Go back and read it again. There is no sense in carrying on a discussion with you if you refuse to actually read and understand the messages you're replying to. :uhh:I did read it again. Your point is that consumers should do what companies tell them to do, and pay what companies tell them to pay, for whatever reason.
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The Snowman @ 16th Oct 03:26PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
fatness,
this is very strange,,,,in my years of coming to this forum I have never known you to have any problem with reading comprehension..............an frankly I don't think you do.
but of course there are those of the Camp that will say that you fail to comprehend... if you fail to agree and accept thier point of view............which in their mind is the only true comprehension of any given given subject.
oh well....that seems just a little bit one sided..... but to each his own.
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bicker @ 16th Oct 03:44PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
The problem is that some people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of honor and respect, and instead when someone suggests that these things are ethics they decide to read some completely different message from what is written. It is a reflection of the inherent vacuous nature of the folks who engage, advocate for, and excuse piracy and other violations. They are transgressive by nature. They abhor any assertion that places obligations and responsibilities on themselves. They reject the idea that a relationship with another entity might a matter of what is agreed-to, instead of what they selfishly want it to be. In short, they care only about themselves, and therefore ignore any aspect of any message that talks about or places and expectation on them to think beyond themselves.
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pnjunction @ 16th Oct 03:46PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
What you were saying is that people can't make copies of audio and video for their personal use.said by fatness :
I did read it again. Your point is that consumers should do what companies tell them to do, and pay what companies tell them to pay, for whatever reason.
No, that isn't my point. Go back and read it again. There is no sense in carrying on a discussion with you if you refuse to actually read and understand the messages you're replying to. :uhh:I did read it again. Your point is that consumers should do what companies tell them to do, and pay what companies tell them to pay, for whatever reason.
What others are saying is that we don't care what the greedy companies say, the courts have often come down on the consumers side on these issues of fair use. iTunes has built-in CD ripping! I guess they are fostering all sort of illegal activity there...
I'll use this emoticon now to be a condescending prick. :uhh:
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bicker @ 16th Oct 03:55PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by pnjunction :
What you were saying is that people can't make copies of audio and video for their personal use.
Yes, very much closer: That the law does not permit them to do so, as some have claimed. The law that permits a personal archival copy is specific -- specific to computer software. And to underscore the issue, if such personal archival copies were ubiquitously entitled, then why the heck would there be a law specifically allowing it for computer software? That's the kind of thing transgressive people attempt to ignore... these little aspects that disprove their self-serving reinterpretations of reality. What you were saying is that people can't make copies of audio and video for their personal use.
said by pnjunction :
What other are saying is that we don't care what the greedy companies say, the courts have often come down on the consumers side.
And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.What other are saying is that we don't care what the greedy companies say, the courts have often come down on the consumers side.
What blows my mind is the inane ranting that I see some folks subjected to when the topic of taxes come up, where whiney consumer-types wax on and on about how the government taking what's theirs, yet these same people have no problem when an activist, consumerist, anti-business court distorts long-standing legal precedent and essentially undercuts the ability to content owners to protect their property from theft by the public -- unlike the tax issue, where it is a matter of the public good, this is attacking property rights solely in the interest of selfish, personal gain. It's the old double-standard, people selfishly coming down on whatever side of the property-rights issue that happens to foster their own personal avarice best at that particular moment. And that's the kind of attitude and perspective you're advocating we favor? Ridiculous.
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SnowyOne @ 16th Oct 04:04PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
The problem is that some people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of honor and respect,..
I'm indifferent to the entire thread but when words like "honor & respect" come into play regarding how some consumers have no or little 'honor and respect" to show certain companies I need to toss a little fact into that argument.The problem is that some people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of honor and respect,..
If the consumer is so lacking in honor & respect why is that the Almighty, Perfect Companies need to have a watchdog like »www.ftc.gov/bcp/consumer.shtm
to keep them honest?
You'd think if the problem were truly the consumer taking advantage of the company, the agency would have a different focus. Have you suggested to the FTC that they are missing the real issue & should become a consumer watchdog agency?
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pnjunction @ 16th Oct 04:06PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Please cite specific examples of the law coming down on people who made copies of their audio and video content for their own personal use. I don't care about the law specifically for computer software, it's irrelevant and you're deflecting.said by pnjunction :
What you were saying is that people can't make copies of audio and video for their personal use.
Yes, very much closer: That the law does not permit them to do so, as some have claimed. The law that permits a personal archival copy is specific -- specific to computer software. And to underscore the issue, if such personal archival copies were ubiquitously entitled, then why the heck would there be a law specifically allowing it for computer software? That's the kind of thing transgressive people attempt to ignore... these little aspects that disprove their self-serving reinterpretations of reality. What you were saying is that people can't make copies of audio and video for their personal use.
said by bicker :
What's your point here? That the courts were wrong, not 'on the side of the law' in many fair use cases? Yes it would be nice if they cracked down on those who profit from real pirating. More deflection from the fact that you are WRONG about fair use.said by pnjunction :
What other are saying is that we don't care what the greedy companies say, the courts have often come down on the consumers side.
And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.What other are saying is that we don't care what the greedy companies say, the courts have often come down on the consumers side.
said by bicker :
What blows my mind is the inane ranting that I see some folks subjected to when the topic of taxes come up, where whiney consumer-types wax on and on about how the government taking what's theirs, yet these same people have no problem when an activist, consumerist, anti-business court distorts long-standing legal precedent and essentially undercuts the ability to content owners to protect their property from theft by the public -- unlike the tax issue, where it is a matter of the public good, this is attacking property rights solely in the interest of selfish, personal gain. It's the old double-standard, people selfishly coming down on whatever side of the property-rights issue that happens to foster their own personal avarice best at that particular moment. And that's the kind of attitude and perspective you're advocating we favor? Ridiculous.
Yes...that inane ranting. :uhh:What blows my mind is the inane ranting that I see some folks subjected to when the topic of taxes come up, where whiney consumer-types wax on and on about how the government taking what's theirs, yet these same people have no problem when an activist, consumerist, anti-business court distorts long-standing legal precedent and essentially undercuts the ability to content owners to protect their property from theft by the public -- unlike the tax issue, where it is a matter of the public good, this is attacking property rights solely in the interest of selfish, personal gain. It's the old double-standard, people selfishly coming down on whatever side of the property-rights issue that happens to foster their own personal avarice best at that particular moment. And that's the kind of attitude and perspective you're advocating we favor? Ridiculous.
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bicker @ 16th Oct 04:13PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by SnowyOne :
I'm indifferent to the entire thread but when words like "honor & respect" come into play regarding how some consumers have no or little 'honor and respect" to show certain companies I need to toss a little fact into that argument.
No need... your comments don't obviate the point I made. You mention that some others lack honor. So? Does that excuse the rampant and ceaselessly expanding abandonment of honor that I highlighted? No, not at all. I'm indifferent to the entire thread but when words like "honor & respect" come into play regarding how some consumers have no or little 'honor and respect" to show certain companies I need to toss a little fact into that argument.
One important aspect of what you mentioned: As you said, there are protections against companies acting without honor, but there is no such government agency actively monitoring instances of lack of honorable conduct by consumers. Indeed, it is illegal to have an investigative entity, public or private, responsible for detecting dishonorable activities by consumers, such as lying to get a discount. Despite the self-centered protestations of consumerists, the law is very much biased in the favor of consumers, and the practical anonymity of the vastness of the number of consumers helps transgressors transgress practically with impunity.
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pnjunction @ 16th Oct 04:14PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
If you want the actual legal situation in the US it is this:
The DMCA allows for fair use but it also makes bypassing any copy protection illegal.
The result is that ripping CDs (ie to MP3s) for personal use is fair because they are unprotected. DVDs, however, are protected with encryption and so aren't technically legal to copy.
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51200853 @ 16th Oct 04:15PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by pnjunction :
If you want the actual legal situation in the US it is this:
The DMCA allows for fair use but it also makes bypassing any copy protection illegal.
The result is that ripping CDs (ie to MP3s) for personal use is fair because they are unprotected. DVDs, however, are protected with encryption and so aren't technically legal to copy.
DVD'S are legal to copy if you're not bypassing encryption. If you want the actual legal situation in the US it is this:
The DMCA allows for fair use but it also makes bypassing any copy protection illegal.
The result is that ripping CDs (ie to MP3s) for personal use is fair because they are unprotected. DVDs, however, are protected with encryption and so aren't technically legal to copy.
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pnjunction @ 16th Oct 04:17PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by 51200853 :
DVD'S are legal to copy if you're not bypassing encryption.
Hmm, I'm not sure, can you make a bit-by-bit copy (ie an image or disk copy) without touching the encryption?DVD'S are legal to copy if you're not bypassing encryption.
Obviously ripping the video to a file would be bypassing the encryption, not sure about copying the entire disk.
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bicker @ 16th Oct 04:21PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by pnjunction :
Please cite specific examples of the law coming down on people who made copies of their audio and video content for their own personal use.
See above. How would you suggest a company seeking to take action against consumers for unauthorized copying, in violation of the terms and conditions of sale, go about gathering the evidence necessary to serve as foundation for a small-claims lawsuit? Also, in what reality would going after individual transgressors in small-claims court, with lawyers you have to pay significant salaries for, be a financially profitable endeavor. Just because companies don't pursue such legal remedies does not mean that the transgressions against the stated terms and conditions doesn't take place. Please cite specific examples of the law coming down on people who made copies of their audio and video content for their own personal use.
Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
said by pnjunction :
I don't care about the law specifically for computer software, it's irrelevant and you're deflecting.
No sir; You are rationalizing. I don't care about the law specifically for computer software, it's irrelevant and you're deflecting.
said by pnjunction :
More deflection from the fact that you are WRONG about fair use.
Wow. You really stepped in it now. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, which isn't surprising given how much you have said you don't care about the law. Read the Fair Use Doctrine. It says nothing -- NOTHING -- about personal archival copies. Fair Use is for scholarly review and commentary. It is not a right; it is a defense against partial use of copyrighted works as part of a larger original work of your own. More deflection from the fact that you are WRONG about fair use.
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51200853 @ 16th Oct 04:27PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Tell me if I understand your argument correctly. What you're basically is saying that consumer is not permitted to make a back up copy of the cd/dvd be it music or software for sole purpose of having back up of the product that they purchased?
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SnowyOne @ 16th Oct 04:29PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Nor was my intent to obviate the point you made.said by SnowyOne :
I'm indifferent to the entire thread but when words like "honor & respect" come into play regarding how some consumers have no or little 'honor and respect" to show certain companies I need to toss a little fact into that argument.
No need... your comments don't obviate the point I made.I'm indifferent to the entire thread but when words like "honor & respect" come into play regarding how some consumers have no or little 'honor and respect" to show certain companies I need to toss a little fact into that argument.
My point was that a lack of honor and respect isn't in the private domain of the consumer. My issue was in you pointing out the flaws found in some consumers without a single mention of how companies can show the same lack of honor and respect towards the consumer.
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pnjunction @ 16th Oct 04:39PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Listen the RIAA has talked lots of crap about personal use being illegal but they've yet to back it up with a court case. Your excuse that they have no way of gathering evidence...well that's tough luck for them I guess.
I'm not going to argue about this anymore. We'll wait and see how the courts rule if the RIAA is ever insane enough to go after somebody for ripping some CDs (for the record, the people that have gotten into trouble ripped them and put them up on file sharing).
Until then, we'll all keep ripping our CDs (well I won't because I stopped buying them or MP3s since the whole industry disgusts me). Call us thiefs if you want. I'm not gong to read through hundreds of pages in inane legal crap to formulate a legal opinion since I'm not a lawyer, what matters in the end is how the courts are dealing with it (they aren't). Sit up on your pedestal with the RIAA but until the courts back you up nobody cares.
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The Snowman @ 16th Oct 05:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
A few years ago when a few people in the security community first began speaking out against Malware.........the malware vendors would send their "shills" or "Plants" to forums just like this one.......to convince the public of the great wonderful gift of Malware......how great it was to have malware on your computers.......the malware vendors were doing the public such a real favor to infect computers with their malware...........according to the "Shills" and "Plants".
An of course it was just a pointless waste of time to argue with those "Shills" and "Plants"............who's sole purpose was to talk, talk, and talk., and never really say anything.
For sure the RIAA has its own "Shills" and "plants" in forums this very day.........presenting valueless arguements.....and twisting words to keep the topic going. An always at some point comes certain questions from the "Shills" or "Plants".......those "how to" and "what would you do" type of questions...........an if answered could be used to entrap p2p'er's or copiers...............histroy repeats itself.
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Kearnstd @ 16th Oct 05:25PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
the point is that personal copies do not cause any harm at all to the companies, honestly do you think people should have to rebuy their CDs in MP3? its dumb to say yes as well as totally dumb Economically. same goes for movies, if i want a digital version why should i rebuy when i can download an application, pop the DVD in my drive and get a file i can take with me on a laptop.
no harm has been done because they got their money when i purchased the media in the first place.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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carpetshark3 @ 16th Oct 07:15PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I'm just wondering about honor and honesty from the companies?
CSAren't they obliged, also?
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Its a Secret @ 16th Oct 07:43PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Kearnstd :
same goes for movies, if i want a digital version why should i rebuy when i can download an application, pop the DVD in my drive and get a file i can take with me on a laptop.
Why do you think they're introducing (and hyping) "Digital Copy". I think by installing the little prog to use it they're probably rooting through your drive as well to see what other ripping progs you have. The DVD Shrink folder contains all the movies you've ripped to a single layer disc (analysis info).same goes for movies, if i want a digital version why should i rebuy when i can download an application, pop the DVD in my drive and get a file i can take with me on a laptop.
You gotta love the MAFIAA's! :p
--
"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous
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NormanS @ 16th Oct 07:58PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
I am curious to know how my ripping a CD, and playing the .mp3 files across my LAN (private; not for broadcast over an Internet connection) is violating the "property rights" of the **AA.And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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NormanS @ 16th Oct 08:05PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
Fine. I haven't bought any RIAA properties in years. I guess I just won't; buy their CDs, or play their tunes. I won't pirate their goofy chit, either; not worth paying for, not worth stealing. Let them go bankrupt as their sales dry up.Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
I don't share my ripped tunes. But, if I can't rip them, maybe I should take them down to the local used CD store and sell them; get a little back for having had them. Of course, if I did that, I'd also delete the tunes from my HDD. Hmm. I wouldn't need such a large HDD, nor any fancy media players, either. Or codecs. Etc., etc., etc.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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fatness @ 16th Oct 08:24PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
The problem is that some people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of honor and respect
The problem is that you're using a new redefinition of honor and respect, one that means "do what companies tell you to do, pay what they say to pay when they say to pay it, thank them for it, and command others to do the same."The problem is that some people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of honor and respect
Most antiquated peoples such as myself have not yet adopted that redefinition of "honor and respect".
--
"That blast came from the pants! That thing's operational!"
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Blackbird @ 16th Oct 09:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by fatness :
... The problem is that you're using a new redefinition of honor and respect, one that means "do what companies tell you to do, pay what they say to pay when they say to pay it, thank them for it, and command others to do the same."
Most antiquated peoples such as myself have not yet adopted that redefinition of "honor and respect".
Just so we're all looking at the same page, what is your definition of "honor and respect" that has been subjected to redefinition?... The problem is that you're using a new redefinition of honor and respect, one that means "do what companies tell you to do, pay what they say to pay when they say to pay it, thank them for it, and command others to do the same."
Most antiquated peoples such as myself have not yet adopted that redefinition of "honor and respect".
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...
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KodiacZiller @ 16th Oct 09:21PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by NormanS :
Sadly, it is. There was a case where a car repair shop was sued by the MAFIAA because they were playing CD's on their stereo system where customers could hear it. (No kidding).said by bicker :
And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
I am curious to know how my ripping a CD, and playing the .mp3 files across my LAN (private; not for broadcast over an Internet connection) is violating the "property rights" of the **AA.And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
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SnowyOne @ 16th Oct 09:49PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by KodiacZiller :
via the "car repair shop" that would fall under commercial use of the CD's content which is really a different subject.said by NormanS :
Sadly, it is. There was a case where a car repair shop was sued by the MAFIAA because they were playing CD's on their stereo system where customers could hear it. (No kidding).said by bicker :
And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
I am curious to know how my ripping a CD, and playing the .mp3 files across my LAN (private; not for broadcast over an Internet connection) is violating the "property rights" of the **AA.And the courts have often come down on the side of the law. Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates? We can only hope.
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Kearnstd @ 16th Oct 09:51PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
you mean "Commercial" use, this is example of ASCAP being a bunch of crooks. why do they care a mom and pop throws a CD into the stereo? simple they want more money.
keep in mind they have sued people playing OTA radio too though.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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The Snowman @ 16th Oct 10:49PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
For reasons so obviously self serving the MAFIAA does not want consumers to fully understand that as long as there is NO BYPASSING its LEGAL.
One very major problem I have noticed time and time again is a near total lack of legal understanding of DMA by lawyers hired to defend those sued by the MAFIAA. An this has possibly caused major set-backs for consumers. (no links...just personal observation)
The MAFIAA desires to control the entire Media Industry an by so doing will have a certain control over EVERY CONSUMER IN THE ENTIRE WORLD TO A CERTAIN EXTENT>
The DMA is in desperate need of being either totally done away with or re-worked to be less one-sided. The DMA has been ABUSED by the MAFIAA "LEGALLY". Not only against "prirates: but against several idustries. Time and time again this has been shown.
An its PASS time for the peoples of the world to speak-out against this abuse an have it removed ......not simply altered...REMOVED !!!! One must ask himself why lawmakers are in bed with the MAFIAA ?
________________________
Mafiaa demands could cost colleges $500,000 a year
P2P policing policies could leave some peniless > (Monday, 20 October 2008, 17:02)
NEW MANDATES recently added to the US Higher Education Act at the request of music and film industry bullies could end up costing American educational institutions a small fortune according to a report from Inside Higher Ed.
Just a few months after lawmakers rolled over under pressure from the music and film industry Mafiaa, some colleges are counting the cost of complying with the new laws and some, particulary those privately run without public funding, could suffer huge financial losses.
Kenneth C Green, who has been a vocal opponent of the entertainment industry's tactics against campus Internet providers, estimates that some large institutions could end up coughing up between £350,000 and $500,000 a year to comply with the new rulings.
Because of heavy-handed industry lobbying, colleges are now required "to consider the use of technology based deterrents" to stop people sharing files over P2P networks and it's this traffic monitoring and bandwidth shaping that costs the cash.
Colleges are also legally required to make sure all students understand the legal implications of downloading copyrighted material and the costs of awareness campaigns, rather than coming out of the coffers of the music and film industries as you might expect, come directly out of college funds. µ
»www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new···s-usd500
________________________
A bad law IS NO LAW !!!!
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rawwhide @ 16th Oct 11:13PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by NormanS :
I don't share my ripped tunes. But, if I can't rip them, maybe I should take them down to the local used CD store and sell them; get a little back for having had them. Of course, if I did that, I'd also delete the tunes from my HDD. Hmm. I wouldn't need such a large HDD, nor any fancy media players, either. Or codecs. Etc., etc., etc.
It is actually considered fair use. said by bicker :
Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
Fine. I haven't bought any RIAA properties in years. I guess I just won't; buy their CDs, or play their tunes. I won't pirate their goofy chit, either; not worth paying for, not worth stealing. Let them go bankrupt as their sales dry up.Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
I don't share my ripped tunes. But, if I can't rip them, maybe I should take them down to the local used CD store and sell them; get a little back for having had them. Of course, if I did that, I'd also delete the tunes from my HDD. Hmm. I wouldn't need such a large HDD, nor any fancy media players, either. Or codecs. Etc., etc., etc.
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
I including teaching in bold cause you could always claim you were teaching your self how to sing or play an instrument!!
Since the introduction of the DMCA though, companies have started installing copy protection on cd/dvd to prevent people from copying/ripping for fair use. Citing that circumvention or copy protection violates the dmca. Has there been a case yet to challenge the DMCA based on fair use?
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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NormanS @ 17th Oct 12:44AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Eh? That was playing in a public area, construed as a "public exhibition". I am not making any kind of "public exhibition" when I play across my LAN, within the privacy of my own home.
Addenda:
For my edification, I checked one of my CDs. There is this printed, in fine print, on the label on the back:
quote:
Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws.
Which leaves me wondering about what constitutes "applicable law". So I did an Internet search, and came up with some interesting information. A publisher, named Brad Templeton, has some interesting pages on his site:
»www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
»www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
So my copying of CDs for "personal use" falls into a legally untested area. A sort of precedent exists in "time-shifting". I am not certain what "space-shifting" is all about. But, in order for the copyright holder to actually sanction me for my copying, he must know that I am doing it. The problem is, how does he find out? If I am not distributing multiple copies of the work, he would need some kind of inside information (a media player which "phones home", perhaps), or he has no case to make before a judge.
I also checked the actual law:
»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/
Section 118 deals with "non-commercial broadcasting":
»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/us···00-.html
But I would contend that I am not "broadcasting" anything to the public.
Section 116 deals with, "public performances by means of coin-operated phonorecord players":
»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/us···00-.html
But there are no coin operated players in my house; and, in any case, it is a private premises, with no standing invitation to the public to enter.
Section 106 defines the exclusive rights of the copyright holder:
»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/us···00-.html
Section 114 defines the scope of exclusive rights:
»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/us···00-.html
None of which specifically addresses the copying of a work for private exhibition in a closed environment. Insofar as I do not copy the work for public exhibition (whether for free, or fee), or otherwise use the copy in any manner which deprives the copyright holder of anything other than his right to exclusively control reproduction, and because a successful prohibition of copying for personal use reduces the value of the work, to me, to the point where paying for the CD would be pointless, and I would not waste my money on a pointless exercise, the prohibition of my copying for personal use would, if enforceable, result in a loss of derivative income to the copyright holder. Simply put, if I can't make such copies under penalty of law (which would require that the copyright holder find some way to provably demonstrate I am making unauthorized copies), I won't buy the work at all.
As matters stand now, I buy the work, the author gets his cut of the money, and I play the work in private exhibition.
OTOH, if the author could prevent my copying, I don't buy the work, and the author gets no money from me for his effort.
I believe that the author would more profitably spend his enforcement efforts on cracking down on unauthorized public exhibition, and public distribution, than to worry about personal copies. Regardless of how the law might be applied.
And, given the "fair use" precedents of time-shifting, and space-shifting, I suspect the author would no more wish to test the legal theory of "personal use" copying than I do. No matter how much money they could throw at the judge, a final judgment, in this matter, would still be a legal crap shoot.
Now, if you want to argue the matter of "personal honor", I honorably do not make my copies available for public access; if any member of the public wants a copy of the author's work, he will not get it from me. Let him buy it, same as I did.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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reub2000 @ 17th Oct 12:59AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by rawwhide :
I including teaching in bold cause you could always claim you were teaching your self how to sing or play an instrument!!
Since the introduction of the DMCA though, companies have started installing copy protection on cd/dvd to prevent people from copying/ripping for fair use. Citing that circumvention or copy protection violates the dmca. Has there been a case yet to challenge the DMCA based on fair use?
You are allowed to include an excerpt of a book in your handouts, however I doubt downloading a whole song is covered under fair use.said by NormanS :
I don't share my ripped tunes. But, if I can't rip them, maybe I should take them down to the local used CD store and sell them; get a little back for having had them. Of course, if I did that, I'd also delete the tunes from my HDD. Hmm. I wouldn't need such a large HDD, nor any fancy media players, either. Or codecs. Etc., etc., etc.
It is actually considered fair use. said by bicker :
Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
Fine. I haven't bought any RIAA properties in years. I guess I just won't; buy their CDs, or play their tunes. I won't pirate their goofy chit, either; not worth paying for, not worth stealing. Let them go bankrupt as their sales dry up.Read the law. Read it. Don't say you don't care about it. It doesn't matter whether you care about it or not. It is the law. The law is what prevails not your personal preferences. And the law says that the owners of copyrighted material have all the rights they assert. There are only specific exceptions, also outline in the law. And your personal copy silliness is not covered in any of those exceptions. It's not. That's the law. It's real, even if you choose to ignore it or deny it.
I don't share my ripped tunes. But, if I can't rip them, maybe I should take them down to the local used CD store and sell them; get a little back for having had them. Of course, if I did that, I'd also delete the tunes from my HDD. Hmm. I wouldn't need such a large HDD, nor any fancy media players, either. Or codecs. Etc., etc., etc.
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
I including teaching in bold cause you could always claim you were teaching your self how to sing or play an instrument!!
Since the introduction of the DMCA though, companies have started installing copy protection on cd/dvd to prevent people from copying/ripping for fair use. Citing that circumvention or copy protection violates the dmca. Has there been a case yet to challenge the DMCA based on fair use?
--
My pbase gallery
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Shriyash @ 17th Oct 01:40AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
There was a time when slavery was legal in the United States.
Because it served the establishment, so they wrote it into law.
Dosent mean that it was a moral thing, or it helped society.
Im mentioning that because you indicated those as your reasons in your reply.
Now you tell me who is writing the rules about what you can and cannot do with legally owned music CD's.
Its in the record companies interest to make it not legal.
Is it any wonder that the younger generations wont buy your argument at all?
And yes, it dosent make any sense to not rip mp3's from legally bought CD's.
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bicker @ 17th Oct 09:02AM:
Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not right
said by rawwhide :
Since the introduction of the DMCA though, companies have started installing copy protection on cd/dvd to prevent people from copying/ripping for fair use. Citing that circumvention or copy protection violates the dmca. Has there been a case yet to challenge the DMCA based on fair use?
Wow, still utterly wrong. Fair Use, even if it did apply (which it does not), is not a right. It is a defense. Nothing a content owner does in terms of encryption and copy protection could every "violate fair use". Fair use simply excuses copying done for scholarly review or commentary, when such use is possible. If such use is prevented by copy protection, there is no problem with that. None whatsoever. You're just making stuff up now to try to bolster your baseless contentions.Since the introduction of the DMCA though, companies have started installing copy protection on cd/dvd to prevent people from copying/ripping for fair use. Citing that circumvention or copy protection violates the dmca. Has there been a case yet to challenge the DMCA based on fair use?
Anyway, I'd love to hear how you try to justify your ridiculous claim that making a personal archival copy qualifies under any of the tenets you highlighted in bold.
Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. The extent to which people are going to try to rationalize dishonorable and disrespectful conduct is despicable.
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bicker @ 17th Oct 09:06AM:
Respect for Property Rights is NOT "slavery"
said by Shriyash :
There was a time when slavery was legal in the United States.
Holy cow. Are you really trying to equate not being able to assuage a selfish desire to copy a song with slavery? This really goes to the heart of the point about how vacuous the contentions of pirates are. There was a time when slavery was legal in the United States.
If you don't like the terms and conditions of sale of music or video, then do without the music or video. Stop trying to rationalize theft. Stop trying to rationalize unilaterally taking what is not offered or promised or entitled. Stop trying to hide such transgressions behind vacuous window-dressing of parallels to real human tragedies, like slavery.
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dave @ 17th Oct 09:17AM:
Re: Respect for Property Rights is NOT "slavery"
said by bicker :
Are you really trying to equate not being able to assuage a selfish desire to copy a song with slavery?
That does seem to indicate a somewhat less than serious engagement with the world, doesn't it?Are you really trying to equate not being able to assuage a selfish desire to copy a song with slavery?
Actually, I find that particular comparison to be morally reprehensible in the extreme, and it has nothing to do with my position on copyright laws.
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rawwhide @ 17th Oct 10:50AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
Anyway, I'd love to hear how you try to justify your ridiculous claim that making a personal archival copy qualifies under any of the tenets you highlighted in bold.
You have a right to make an archive as clearly stated in section 108 of the Copyright Act of 1976. "It's not an infringement of copyright for a library or archives, or any of its employees acting within the scope of their employment, to reproduce no more than one copy." I would argue that since technology has evolved so that anyone with a vast amount of data and a burner have essentially become an archives. Archives simply put is any extensive record or collection of data. One would be allowed under this provision in the act to make a backup. I have bought numerous cd/dvds which in all total holds a vast amount of data. I am sure this would not apply if you didn't own the original work though. So if you download a copy without owning the original then you would be breaking the law.Anyway, I'd love to hear how you try to justify your ridiculous claim that making a personal archival copy qualifies under any of the tenets you highlighted in bold.
»www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#108
The right of reproduction under this section applies to three copies or phonorecords of a published work duplicated solely for the purpose of replacement of a copy or phonorecord that is damaged, deteriorating, lost, or stolen, or if the existing format in which the work is stored has become obsolete, if —
I would also contend that, cd's and cd players have become obsolete. As has past forms such as, reel to reels, cassette players, turn tables, and 8 Track. How much longer do we have on dvd technology since Blu-ray is on the scene. Technology obsolescence isn't determined exclusively by the manufacturer, but rather by both the manufacturer and the consumer. In the case of moving songs from cd to mp3 it is a completely acceptable practice not prohibited by law, until the DMCA provided the cd had copy protection. Reproduction into mp3 of the work on those cd's now under the DMCA has become unlawful because one has to bypass copy protection in order to make a back up or move songs from cd to mp3 player.
As stated in section I that music and video doesnt apply unless it is in regards to section B, C, or H. Section B and H makes it clear that you can copy for purposes of preservation and security. So reproduction of music and movies for purposes of preservation is completely acceptable. I am sure one could also make the case for deterioration of cd/dvd's and being able to make a copy for that purpose of purpose of preservation and security. What are the first things thieves look for when invading your home. Flat screens and dvd movies!!
I guess im a post edit dimwit! :D I get ahead of myself at times. :p
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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nwrickert @ 17th Oct 10:56AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Wouldn't it be nice if the courts reliably protected property rights from attack by selfish pirates?
It would indeed be good if my rights as a property owner (home owner) were protected against attack by the selfish pirates at RIAA.--
AT&T Uverse; Zyxel NBG334W router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 11.0; firefox 3.0.14
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anon @ 17th Oct 11:48AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Its ok for you to copy movies to your tivo but illegal for others to make a backup copy . LOL..
»Re: DVR transfer and 3rd party options
said by bicker
Rather, what I do is connect my TiVo to my home LAN, and use TiVo Desktop or some analog to transfer recordings to my desktop computer, which has a couple of 1TB hard drives in it, so I can store up to 250 hours of HD.
[/BQUOTE :
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anon @ 17th Oct 12:20PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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The Snowman @ 17th Oct 02:31PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Will the RIAA cause world war three ?
Tame RIAA politicians denounce other countries
»www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new···ountries
______________________________
Will Internet filtering wanted by the RIAA....ever work ?
MPAA lobbies Obama for Internet filtering
»www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opi···iltering
Suppose Internet filtering is in place and can detect and block copyrighted movie and televison files.
And suppose that I have an online respository of such files and that I want to make them available to you for download over the Internet.
Initially, I encrypt the files and provide you with the keys along with the files. Those who are filtering traffic acquire copies of those files and start filtering the encrypted versions too. All I have to do is change my encryption keys and they are back at square one again.
The filtering censors change their approach. They start filtering based on my encryption keys, that is, they trigger blocking of file transfers when they detect my known encryption keys. That cat and mouse game could go on for a long time, but it won't. I'll get smarter.
I can distribute my public key to affiliated sites... and elsewhere. You can encrypt your public key using my public key, and request a file. I can then encrypt that file using your 'public' key - which has never traversed the Internet in its unencrypted form - and send it to you. The Internet filterers won't be able to detect what file is being sent. Checkmate.
Infinite variations of such encryption schemes are possible, including the use of one-time encryption keys and file sharing sources at many Internet addresses, but the point is that Internet filtering to block file transfers cannot be successful for very long, and it will fail.
That's why Internet filtering is a potentially very costly bad idea that can never succeed. "
"
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Kearnstd @ 17th Oct 03:05PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
add to that filtering packets could ruin my online experience. why should my ping in Aion or WoW go up so the RIAA can make sure someone isnt uploading their latest artist? because filters impact overall performance of real-time data such as games and VOIP services.
to me my internet experience even if its just playing an MMORPG is far far more important then the protection of rights holders property. and i say this because the police serve and protect but i go about life and i am rarely impacted by their work. filters would be like police check points at every freeway interchange.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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The Snowman @ 17th Oct 04:52PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Vistaasp2,
Had not noticed your post until now.......very enlightening.
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rawwhide @ 17th Oct 11:08PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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siljaline @ 19th Oct 03:04PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
From: Reuters
Pardon my bootleg: Navigating China's pirated waters
Full Article
--
siljaline
Here at Mountain View Chocolate, we’re committed to transparency and choice
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anon @ 31st Oct 08:45AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:46AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:49AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Look: You can bitch about the law all you want, but until it changes (if you can ever get enough people to agree with your consumeristic perspectives), you're just trying to find some excuse for violating the law, i.e., find a way to making engaging in anti-social behavior sound less objectionable than it really is.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:57AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Breaking the law != anti-social. In case you haven't noticed many laws serve corporations and other interests rather than society.
Objectionable? Object away. I find unwavering compliance objectionable.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:05AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
If you're breaking the law for personal gain, then yes, it is anti-social behavior.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:10AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
The problem is your living in lala land where the laws are actually balanced.
Who's to say the laws aren't balanced AWAY from consumers towards the content owners? They are the ones with lobbyists and sway over lawmakers...
While you say I 'clearly' want an imbalance in my favour, to me you are 'clearly' unwilling to accept that the laws may be unbalanced.
I need to go buy another copy of a DVD if I scratch mine because the law says I can't back it up? Yeah real balanced there.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 09:17AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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rawwhide @ 31st Oct 09:24AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:47AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
The core fact is inescapable: The law is what it is; breaking the law for selfish reasons is transgressive, and without merit. This is what we teach our children, but how can they learn honor if we don't model such behavior ourselves?
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:50AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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anon @ 31st Oct 09:52AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 10:00AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
There are even mechanisms in modern society, although the system would like us to forget about them, for people to object to laws as unjust. For example, jury nullification. The justice system has done a good job of sweeping that under the rug.
Even the most honorable and strict organizations, like the military, have protocols for being a 'conscientious objector' whereby on moral or ethical grounds one can disobey orders.
No it is not always right to bow to the law and authority. That's a weak attitude that implies we give up our rights and freedoms if they are legislated away.
If everybody had your attitude we'd be living under dictators and monarchs because their word was law and thus should never have been broken.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 10:07AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
True, but those mechanisms are official mechanisms, and essentially require that the person publicly announce their objection and risk whatever sanctions that that may bring about. Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:16AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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rawwhide @ 31st Oct 10:17AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 10:18AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
So we're clear on selfishness. Backing up a DVD so you don't have to buy it again: selfish and immoral.
Lobbying lawmakers to make backups illegal so people have to buy DVDs over again: legit because the law is on your side.
Laws are bought and sold, sorry if they don't factor too much into what I think is selfish.
Also you conveniently ignored my other examples of people rebelling against the law. I guess slaves should have objected conscientiously (LOL whipping sounds) instead of selfishly escaping to gain their freedom? It's an extreme example, but in this case we'd get 'whipped' in courts with expensive lawyers and slanted laws.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:43AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Not too extreme of an example... after all, we're all slaves to the monied interests of the people who buy these laws into existence--you know, those people who think they have the "right" to decide what's "selfish" and what's "conscientious".
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bicker @ 31st Oct 10:43AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:54AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I just know your mindset.
Yeah, "greedy"... I go out and buy a DVD for my personal use--and my personal use alone, and that makes me "greedy". Shame on me. Carrying content around on a DVD for my personal use is OK, but carrying that content around on a hard drive for my personal use is not OK. Now, that's bull. FYI, I've never downloaded nor uploaded any movie, TV show, or even a music track legally or illegally... ever; call me old-fashioned... I don't believe in piracy. One thing I do know for sure: you don't have the right to define what are and are not basic, inalienable rights... try as you might.
I truly pity you.
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fatness @ 31st Oct 11:11AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
--
"I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants."
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shrine @ 31st Oct 02:19PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I pirate 100% of my software and never get viruses. NOD32? Don't need a crack. WinRAR doesn't, Adobe Photoshop only needs a keygen which can be run with protection. XP can use a clean disc and an established crack. SPSS, for my statistical research for psychology in graduate school, which I use to produce peer-reviewed papers? Cracked.
The fact is, there is no real benefit to the consumer in buying software, except that it's easier for them and convenient. If you have the money, take the convenience. The same goes for 1st class air flights, maids, restaurants, and having a secretary.
For the rest of us? For the millions of students, teenagers, young adults, and lower-middle class who need software to survive in today's world? We'll pirate, thanks. Your arguments against this are out of contempt and jealous; not for any concern for software companies.
This system is as it is and has developed as it has because it works. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be done.
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SnowyOne @ 31st Oct 04:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
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Smokey Bear @ 31st Oct 04:29PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
You know what? You read to many stories like Robin Hood and his Merry Men: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood
--
Smokey's Security Forums »www.smokey-services.eu/forums/
Smokey's Security Weblog »smokeys.wordpress.com/
Official Jetico Inc. Support Forums »www.smokey-services.eu/
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bicker @ 31st Oct 04:40PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 04:46PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 08:03PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law. I pity you for not honoring those who have died to create and preserve the rights and freedoms that define what this country is. I pity you for feeling no responsibility to defend those rights and freedoms yourself. I pity you for your "holier than thou" morality which condemns every view that differs from your own. I pity you for not believing that each of us has the inalienable right to choose what he or she may do with his or her own life, own body, own property. I pity you for being naive.
I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't steal. I don't pirate software or anything else and I never have. But I also don't treat anyone like a criminal for exercising their rights of ownership for those things they've paid for. "Piracy" is taking something that doesn't belong to you. The right to view the content on a DVD that I bought is something that belongs to me... the right to view that content from that DVD; that's mine. I don't own the content. I don't own the right to distribute the content. But I own the right to view that content... for as long as I own the DVD itself.
The true farce in the DVD copying issue is the encryption. It's intended (supposedly) to stop the true pirates--those who establish a "business" devoted to making bootleg copies which they can distribute. It doesn't even slow them down. But for the sake of "protecting their investment" content owners have bought and paid for legislators to pass laws to "protect" their content from being copied. Yeah, well, I bought the disc. Neither my rights nor the rights of the content owners are either increased or diminished by an act of copying that content from one disc that I own to another disc that I own, neither of which will be used by anyone other than me. No piracy. No distribution. My property.
Continue to bicker on alone, as you wish.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:21PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:31PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I pity you.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:38PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I've defended everything I've said, calling them indefensible doesn't make it so. Meanwhile, you stopped responding to my arguments a while ago. Your lack of moral independence is indefensible (that's fun...you can't possibly defend it because I've declared it so).
I was giving examples of laws that it seems like you would follow.
Can you tell me how ridiculous a law would have to get before you didn't follow it? Probably not, just more deflection, insults and condescension.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:40PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
You operate under the assumption that the laws are just and label any violation of them to be immoral and dishonourable.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:52PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Two can play this game.
The law was ridiculous. So I worked to change it. And then once it changed, then folks were able to benefit from the law being changed. That's the mature, responsible approach: Change the law, first. Don't just violate it because you don't like it -- that's just childishness, especially with something that is just a matter of money, instead of actual human rights, like the right to marry the person you love.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:55PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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EGeezer @ 31st Oct 09:08PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Wow, this thread sure has become a candidate for 2009's "Most Useless Degradation of Topic" :D
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:09PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I'm not justifiying piracy. You're putting words in my mouth because you're desperate (accusations of desperation are fun too).
I'll ask again so you'll have a harder time dodging: Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed? How about banning backups so people have to buy the DVD again if they scratch it?
Regarding changing laws, how much luck do you realistically think we have of getting fair laws that allow this type of behaviour, which the vast majority of people think is reasonable?
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:20PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Anyways I'm done arguing about this.
The reality is that the more unreasonable the law the more people are going to ignore it.
In a way the courts and justice system don't really back up these laws either, let me know if someone loses a court case about backing up a DVD or some music that they purchased. It's all bark and no bite to scare people into compliance.
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fatness @ 31st Oct 09:56PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
"I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants."
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bicker @ 1st Nov 06:25AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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pnjunction @ 1st Nov 08:16AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Have a good day! Be careful with your DVDs!
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NormanS @ 1st Nov 01:04PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Technically, VCRs and DVRs should be illegal; but they are not.
If the RIAA catches me distributing copies of their CDs, they have clear grounds for complaint. If they catch me playing them at public exhibitions, including background music in my shop, they have grounds for complaint. But what about private exhibitions (where I invite friends, but don't charge a fee)? Or piping a ripped file from my computer to another room over the LAN (not the Internet)?
The problem is, if the content owners can hammer me for doing that, I'll just not buy there shit at all; then where will they be? At least they got my money when I bought the CD.
P.S.: While I have "pirated" a handful of tunes from out of print discs, I have not "pirated" any RIAA properties at all (I am reasonably certain that those handful of tunes are not RIAA properties). Since 1996 I have spent over $4,000 on CDs. RIAA members probably only got about $60 of that total (unless the foreign labels I bought are RIAA members). I don't have enough money to buy from RIAA members, and from non-members. So that $4,000 represents "sales lost" by them because they did not offer something I wanted. I have not traded in .mp3s of their properties. I have downloaded, legally, a hundred, or so, of their titles on a trial bases for a new store selling tunes by the track. But I download those files within the terms of the trial, so they are legal.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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anon @ 5th Nov 10:58PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
right, basically, yes i am a software pirate, or rather, i am a pirated software end user (there is a difference) does that make me a bad person? no.
Facts: 1. When you buy a computer it comes with "Free trial versions" of software you dont even want, do the companies lose money from this? of course they dont... the PC manufacturer pays them to let them install it, then if you want it, and pay for it they get paid AGAIN
2. Have you ever actually read an EULA it basically reads as follows (i paraphrase obviously): We, the "multinational company who have sold you this software own this software, it is ours, even after you install it on your computer, even if you paid for the disc, its ours, what you are paying for is the right to use your lovely software, even if it screws over your pc, (and this does happen, example? Windows Vista ) We will monitor whatever you do on this software if you have an internet connection, and may at any point decide you are no longer allowed to use it, if it doesnt work when you install it thats tough, even though we have put very vague recommended system requirements on the box that usually dont correspond to what it will actually run on, thats not our problem, thank you for giving us our £70 (or whatever) its now your problem not ours.
3. A pirated software download is NOT a lost sale, for example, i downloaded Age of Empires 3.... i wouldn't have bought it as i'm not that into Age of Empires, but wanted to give it a go, if there IS software i like, (for example the Dawn of War series) i pay for it, if im just playing around, im not spending my hard earned money on it full stop.
Im not actually stealing when I download pirated software.... its only stealing when i use it. and if thats very rarely, im only rarely a pirate
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OZO @ 6th Nov 12:43AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
From all your posts it's clear that you're only working for your bottom line and nothing else... Good luck defending all those **AA companies and their based on unlimited greed ideas.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...
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Tyreman @ 6th Nov 06:03AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Vista never screwed over my pc
--
Southern Ontario,Canada
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Vampirefo @ 6th Nov 06:04AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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bicker @ 6th Nov 07:55AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
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rawwhide @ 6th Nov 09:11AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
It doesn't seem like its going to die. Its like the Energizer bunny. It keeps on going and going and going and going and going!!! :D
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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The Snowman @ 6th Nov 10:49AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
" Multi-room Transfers (if you have more than one broadband-connected TiVo); TiVo Desktop (the ability to transfer programs to a personal computer, from which you can view the programs, or serve them back to the TiVo) "
" the best Trick Play implementation; Regex (kind of) Wishlists for searching for and automatically recording programs; TiVo Suggestions (which I use quite a bit); etc. "
_______________________
Gee, now who was it that said they record programs ?
www.dslreports.com/forum/r23186908-Re-DVR-transfer-and-3rd-party-options
_________________________
hmmmm, did that same person also say that was illegal ?
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bicker @ 6th Nov 12:16PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
You do realize that there is a difference between legal (permission granted) and illegal (no permission granted) copying, right?
Get a grip. Stop trying to excuse dishonorable behavior.
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 04:17PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
They only way that's honorable and making a backup for yourself isn't is if your code of honor is dependent on corporate-lobbied laws.
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bicker @ 6th Nov 04:37PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
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MeDuZa @ 6th Nov 07:40PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
Reality corrupted. Reboot universe? (Y/N)
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NormanS @ 6th Nov 08:53PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Just asking. In any case, I did have a CD become damaged, and I did buy a replacement. Didn't think anything of it. Got a damaged book that I'd like replaced, too. I will, when I get enough set aside ($60 dictionary; no, a cheap paperback is no substitute for a kanji dictionary cataloging over 30,000 characters).
Yes, I have ripped CDs. But for something akin to "time shifting". So I can play the tunes from my computer. But I won't borrow from the library, and rip. If I like the CD that much, I will buy it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 08:58PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
First, the conditions are greedy on behalf of the companies. Many wouldn't even stand up in court.
As far as "don't buy" believe me I don't and wish people didn't. I don't buy any DVD/CD movies/music because of the terms and the greediness of the industry. For people who really want media though, there is no choice. Everything in the store comes with the same insane conditions.
What most don't realize is that these crazy conditions are just hot air. What are the consequences of breaking them? Find me a court case against somebody who backed up a DVD. They wouldn't even win, and they know this, so they keep out of the legal system and stick to bribing politicians to make paper-tiger laws to scare people.
The reality is that these conditions 'work' on people like you and just about nobody else. The industry knows this. Instead of making them reasonable, they make them as beneficial as they can to themselves because some tools will be loyal no matter what. The pirates are lost anyways, why not take the landlubbers for as much as you can?
Instead of admitting that they their conditions are ridiculous they know that many people are 'scared straight and others like you will follow them (or say they do) anyways out of some misguided sense of morality and self-righteously wag your finger at others.
These laws aren't getting changed for the better, they're only going to get worse. Things like civil rights play well in the media, things like this get terrible amounts of pro-corporate spin from corporate-owned media and never gain any traction.
I'm already 'protesting', I haven't bought a movie or CD in over 10 years. This isn't something I care enough about to go beyond that except for a few forum arguments with a zealot here or there.
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 09:02PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
You're tainted and going to hell for having ripped a CD anyways. Shame on you and your self-centred greed. If you didn't like that you have to play from the CD and you are boned when if gets scratched, you shouldn't have bought it.
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SnowyOne @ 6th Nov 09:24PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
"Let he who is without sin..."
I can't decide whether it's harder to be you or to be around you.
I can't imagine what an adult who never breaks any agreement would be like.
The first & most obvious flaw that I see in such an honorable adult is the agreement they make with their State when they agree to follow all traffic laws & posted speed limits as a condition of the State issuing a drivers license.
I don't believe it's possible for an adult to be in 100% compliance with that agreement, but it looks as if you are either that exception or you operate with challenged moral values.
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KrK @ 6th Nov 10:06PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
73% Of statistics are made up on the spot. :D
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Rexter @ 6th Nov 10:07PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
96.3% of people agree with you on that.
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KrK @ 6th Nov 10:10PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
... with a +/- 8% margin of error.
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Vampirefo @ 6th Nov 11:45PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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EGeezer @ 7th Nov 01:09AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
My butt itches.
I'm sure that's Divine punishment for having copied my Burl Ives recording of "Kentucky Turkey Buzzard" to MP3 format.
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anon @ 7th Nov 01:10AM:
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The Snowman @ 7th Nov 02:02AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
While not a doctor......a "guess" would be that "B" could possibly experience a Narcissistic personality disorder.......sometimes referred to as the "the God complex"
Also, this Topic appears to be his Demon......the Topic "owns" him..... an he may find it impossible to walk away from it....................
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anon @ 8th Nov 12:30PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I don't even use warez, i pay for my software. I support the creators of the software...Why would i use cracked software from a group that can also come with surprises you never expected.
But unfortunately people don't like paying for things.
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Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2009 silver matrix LLC
Rather, what I do is connect my TiVo to my home LAN, and use TiVo Desktop or some analog to transfer recordings to my desktop computer, which has a couple of 1TB hard drives in it, so I can store up to 250 hours of HD.
[/BQUOTE :
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anon @ 17th Oct 12:20PM:
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The Snowman @ 17th Oct 02:31PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Will the RIAA cause world war three ?
Tame RIAA politicians denounce other countries
»www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new···ountries
______________________________
Will Internet filtering wanted by the RIAA....ever work ?
MPAA lobbies Obama for Internet filtering
»www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opi···iltering
Suppose Internet filtering is in place and can detect and block copyrighted movie and televison files.
And suppose that I have an online respository of such files and that I want to make them available to you for download over the Internet.
Initially, I encrypt the files and provide you with the keys along with the files. Those who are filtering traffic acquire copies of those files and start filtering the encrypted versions too. All I have to do is change my encryption keys and they are back at square one again.
The filtering censors change their approach. They start filtering based on my encryption keys, that is, they trigger blocking of file transfers when they detect my known encryption keys. That cat and mouse game could go on for a long time, but it won't. I'll get smarter.
I can distribute my public key to affiliated sites... and elsewhere. You can encrypt your public key using my public key, and request a file. I can then encrypt that file using your 'public' key - which has never traversed the Internet in its unencrypted form - and send it to you. The Internet filterers won't be able to detect what file is being sent. Checkmate.
Infinite variations of such encryption schemes are possible, including the use of one-time encryption keys and file sharing sources at many Internet addresses, but the point is that Internet filtering to block file transfers cannot be successful for very long, and it will fail.
That's why Internet filtering is a potentially very costly bad idea that can never succeed. "
"
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Kearnstd @ 17th Oct 03:05PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
add to that filtering packets could ruin my online experience. why should my ping in Aion or WoW go up so the RIAA can make sure someone isnt uploading their latest artist? because filters impact overall performance of real-time data such as games and VOIP services.
to me my internet experience even if its just playing an MMORPG is far far more important then the protection of rights holders property. and i say this because the police serve and protect but i go about life and i am rarely impacted by their work. filters would be like police check points at every freeway interchange.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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The Snowman @ 17th Oct 04:52PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Vistaasp2,
Had not noticed your post until now.......very enlightening.
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rawwhide @ 17th Oct 11:08PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Kearnstd :
add to that filtering packets could ruin my online experience. why should my ping in Aion or WoW go up so the RIAA can make sure someone isnt uploading their latest artist? because filters impact overall performance of real-time data such as games and VOIP services.
to me my internet experience even if its just playing an MMORPG is far far more important then the protection of rights holders property. and i say this because the police serve and protect but i go about life and i am rarely impacted by their work. filters would be like police check points at every freeway interchange.
At every major red light as well.add to that filtering packets could ruin my online experience. why should my ping in Aion or WoW go up so the RIAA can make sure someone isnt uploading their latest artist? because filters impact overall performance of real-time data such as games and VOIP services.
to me my internet experience even if its just playing an MMORPG is far far more important then the protection of rights holders property. and i say this because the police serve and protect but i go about life and i am rarely impacted by their work. filters would be like police check points at every freeway interchange.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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siljaline @ 19th Oct 03:04PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
From: Reuters
Pardon my bootleg: Navigating China's pirated waters
quote:
SHANGHAI (Reuters) - I confess, my copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, the latest version of Microsoft's Windows franchise, was just that: a copy.
I picked it up at a shop in a subway station near my house for 20 yuan, or less than $3 -- about the price of a bowl of soupy pork noodles available across Shanghai.
I bought it this week on a story assignment that sent me into the city's notorious Xinyang market, where boxes of the software were tucked among racks of fake Ralph Polo T-shirts and Gucci bags, even though its official launch was a week away.
Full Article
--
siljaline
Here at Mountain View Chocolate, we’re committed to transparency and choice
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anon @ 31st Oct 08:45AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:46AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by nwrickert :
It would indeed be good if my rights as a property owner (home owner) were protected against attack by the selfish pirates at RIAA.
That's ridiculous. The RIAA is doing nothing to violate your property rights regarding your home. It would indeed be good if my rights as a property owner (home owner) were protected against attack by the selfish pirates at RIAA.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:49AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by Vistasp2 :
Its ok for you to copy movies to your tivo but illegal for others to make a backup copy . LOL..
Laugh all you want but it is the reality. The TiVo respects copy protection. Its ok for you to copy movies to your tivo but illegal for others to make a backup copy . LOL..
Look: You can bitch about the law all you want, but until it changes (if you can ever get enough people to agree with your consumeristic perspectives), you're just trying to find some excuse for violating the law, i.e., find a way to making engaging in anti-social behavior sound less objectionable than it really is.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:57AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
Breaking the law != anti-social. In case you haven't noticed many laws serve corporations and other interests rather than society.
Objectionable? Object away. I find unwavering compliance objectionable.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:05AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
Breaking the law != anti-social.
It's like we're speaking a different language.Breaking the law != anti-social.
If you're breaking the law for personal gain, then yes, it is anti-social behavior.
said by pnjunction :
In case you haven't noticed many laws serve corporations and other interests rather than society.
Incorrect; what you mean to say is that some laws aren't 100% in the consumerists' best interest. Society's best interests are served by a balance, evidenced by the various consumer protection laws as well as the laws that protect the rights of content owners. You clearly want an imbalance, in your own favor, with everything benefiting your own personal self interest; that's not unusual, but it is not defensible, and surely isn't what is in the best interests of society, as you tried to claim.In case you haven't noticed many laws serve corporations and other interests rather than society.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:10AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
The problem is your living in lala land where the laws are actually balanced.
Who's to say the laws aren't balanced AWAY from consumers towards the content owners? They are the ones with lobbyists and sway over lawmakers...
While you say I 'clearly' want an imbalance in my favour, to me you are 'clearly' unwilling to accept that the laws may be unbalanced.
I need to go buy another copy of a DVD if I scratch mine because the law says I can't back it up? Yeah real balanced there.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 09:17AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
Look: You can bitch about the law all you want, but until it changes (if you can ever get enough people to agree with your consumeristic perspectives), you're just trying to find some excuse for violating the law, i.e., find a way to making engaging in anti-social behavior sound less objectionable than it really is.
The "reality" is that an optical disc is a distribution medium. If I buy a DVD (for example), then I own the disc. I also own the right to view the content on the disc whenever and wherever I want to--for my own personal use--with absolutely no restrictions. Any logical person can accept that as long as I don't re-distribute that content, then I'm not pirating anything. If I copy the content to my hard drive on my media center for my personal use--for my convenience, then I'm not pirating the content. And if "the law" says I'm violating someone else's "rights" by doing so, then my attitude is "Fuck the law."... because I'm a logical person. The "law" is no stranger to violating basic human rights; "the law" is bought and paid for by those with money as often as not, so pardon me for not accepting that "the law" is a good reason for not exercising my property rights.said by Vistasp2 :
Its ok for you to copy movies to your tivo but illegal for others to make a backup copy . LOL..
Laugh all you want but it is the reality. The TiVo respects copy protection. Its ok for you to copy movies to your tivo but illegal for others to make a backup copy . LOL..
Look: You can bitch about the law all you want, but until it changes (if you can ever get enough people to agree with your consumeristic perspectives), you're just trying to find some excuse for violating the law, i.e., find a way to making engaging in anti-social behavior sound less objectionable than it really is.
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rawwhide @ 31st Oct 09:24AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
I need to go buy another copy of a DVD if I scratch mine because the law says I can't back it up? Yeah real balanced there.
Especially those of us that have kids. Even a drop of a dvd that lands wrong is enough to damage the disk. Kids are particularly destructive.I need to go buy another copy of a DVD if I scratch mine because the law says I can't back it up? Yeah real balanced there.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:47AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
The problem is your living in lala land where the laws are actually balanced.
No, I'm living in the real world where not everything has to be such that you feel it is fair.The problem is your living in lala land where the laws are actually balanced.
The core fact is inescapable: The law is what it is; breaking the law for selfish reasons is transgressive, and without merit. This is what we teach our children, but how can they learn honor if we don't model such behavior ourselves?
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bicker @ 31st Oct 09:50AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by mod_wastrel :
If I buy a DVD (for example), then I own the disc. I also own the right to view the content on the disc whenever and wherever I want to--for my own personal use--with absolutely no restrictions.
That last part is absolutely incorrect. And that's the problem: Some folks selfishly refuse to acknowledge the reality of the limitations that do exist with regard to the license they purchase when they purchase a DVD (for example). If I buy a DVD (for example), then I own the disc. I also own the right to view the content on the disc whenever and wherever I want to--for my own personal use--with absolutely no restrictions.
said by mod_wastrel :
And if "the law" says I'm violating someone else's "rights" by doing so, then my attitude is "Fuck the law."...
And people wonder why society is as it is... And if "the law" says I'm violating someone else's "rights" by doing so, then my attitude is "Fuck the law."...
said by mod_wastrel :
so pardon me for not accepting that "the law" is a good reason for not exercising my property rights.
Rights that are solely within your own mind, not rights in reality. so pardon me for not accepting that "the law" is a good reason for not exercising my property rights.
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anon @ 31st Oct 09:52AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 10:00AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
There are even mechanisms in modern society, although the system would like us to forget about them, for people to object to laws as unjust. For example, jury nullification. The justice system has done a good job of sweeping that under the rug.
Even the most honorable and strict organizations, like the military, have protocols for being a 'conscientious objector' whereby on moral or ethical grounds one can disobey orders.
No it is not always right to bow to the law and authority. That's a weak attitude that implies we give up our rights and freedoms if they are legislated away.
If everybody had your attitude we'd be living under dictators and monarchs because their word was law and thus should never have been broken.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 10:07AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
True, but those mechanisms are official mechanisms, and essentially require that the person publicly announce their objection and risk whatever sanctions that that may bring about. Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:16AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
You mis-read my statement--as I knew you would. I said "the content on the disc", as in, I can take the disc anywhere I want to and play it whenever I want to for my own personal use. Or are you denying that I have the right to do that?said by mod_wastrel :
If I buy a DVD (for example), then I own the disc. I also own the right to view the content on the disc whenever and wherever I want to--for my own personal use--with absolutely no restrictions.
That last part is absolutely incorrect. And that's the problem: Some folks selfishly refuse to acknowledge the reality of the limitations that do exist with regard to the license they purchase when they purchase a DVD (for example).If I buy a DVD (for example), then I own the disc. I also own the right to view the content on the disc whenever and wherever I want to--for my own personal use--with absolutely no restrictions.
said by bicker :
I guess you wonder how there ever was such a thing as the Boston Tea Party. This country was founded by people with my "attitude".said by mod_wastrel :
And if "the law" says I'm violating someone else's "rights" by doing so, then my attitude is "Fuck the law."...
And people wonder why society is as it is... And if "the law" says I'm violating someone else's "rights" by doing so, then my attitude is "Fuck the law."...
said by bicker :
Some basic, human rights are inalienable... sorry (for you) that you don't get that. The right to buy something and then actually use it... well, that's one of those inalienable rights.said by mod_wastrel :
so pardon me for not accepting that "the law" is a good reason for not exercising my property rights.
Rights that are solely within your own mind, not rights in reality. so pardon me for not accepting that "the law" is a good reason for not exercising my property rights.
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rawwhide @ 31st Oct 10:17AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
True, but those mechanisms are official mechanisms, and essentially require that the person publicly announce their objection and risk whatever sanctions that that may bring about. Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
That seems exactly what piracy is doing. They download/upload at their own peril. When one downloads/uploads they take the risk that they will be prosecuted under the law.True, but those mechanisms are official mechanisms, and essentially require that the person publicly announce their objection and risk whatever sanctions that that may bring about. Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 10:18AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
What if one knows they'll get screwed by going out in the open? For example, I smoke pot surreptitiously because stating openly that I should be able to enjoy this activity is pointless (my whole character would be assassinated! I would be cast off as some shiftless loser despite anything else I've ever done) Same with this.Contrast that with pirating and illegal copying, which is all done under the cover of surreptitiousness.
I'm all for conscientious objection -- not selfish objection.
So we're clear on selfishness. Backing up a DVD so you don't have to buy it again: selfish and immoral.
Lobbying lawmakers to make backups illegal so people have to buy DVDs over again: legit because the law is on your side.
Laws are bought and sold, sorry if they don't factor too much into what I think is selfish.
Also you conveniently ignored my other examples of people rebelling against the law. I guess slaves should have objected conscientiously (LOL whipping sounds) instead of selfishly escaping to gain their freedom? It's an extreme example, but in this case we'd get 'whipped' in courts with expensive lawyers and slanted laws.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:43AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Not too extreme of an example... after all, we're all slaves to the monied interests of the people who buy these laws into existence--you know, those people who think they have the "right" to decide what's "selfish" and what's "conscientious".
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bicker @ 31st Oct 10:43AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by mod_wastrel :
You mis-read my statement--as I knew you would.
Do you often deliberately post things that you know will be misinterpreted?You mis-read my statement--as I knew you would.
said by mod_wastrel :
I guess you wonder how there ever was such a thing as the Boston Tea Party. This country was founded by people with my "attitude".
And so you think that justifies unrestricted selfish greed on the part of consumers? Uh-uh... no. That was a revolution: An illegal action, justified on grounds of conscience, not selfish financial interest. And if history ended up differently, our founding fathers would have been considered criminals, because that was indeed what they were. Remember what our founding fathers wrote: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." In other words, they readily acknowledged that they were risking their lives with what they were doing. What is someone who illegally copies something risking, if they don't publicize their transgression? Nothing. Because what they're engaging in is selfishness, not conscience.I guess you wonder how there ever was such a thing as the Boston Tea Party. This country was founded by people with my "attitude".
said by mod_wastrel :
Some basic, human rights are inalienable...
Making copies of DVD is not one of them.Some basic, human rights are inalienable...
said by mod_wastrel :
sorry (for you) that you don't get that.
I get the reality, not your ridiculous assertion of making copies of DVD as a "human right". :uhh:sorry (for you) that you don't get that.
said by mod_wastrel :
The right to buy something and then actually use it [any way you decide that you should be allowed to use it]... well, that's one of those inalienable rights.
Bull. You just made that up.The right to buy something and then actually use it [any way you decide that you should be allowed to use it]... well, that's one of those inalienable rights.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 10:54AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I just know your mindset.
Yeah, "greedy"... I go out and buy a DVD for my personal use--and my personal use alone, and that makes me "greedy". Shame on me. Carrying content around on a DVD for my personal use is OK, but carrying that content around on a hard drive for my personal use is not OK. Now, that's bull. FYI, I've never downloaded nor uploaded any movie, TV show, or even a music track legally or illegally... ever; call me old-fashioned... I don't believe in piracy. One thing I do know for sure: you don't have the right to define what are and are not basic, inalienable rights... try as you might.
I truly pity you.
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fatness @ 31st Oct 11:11AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
The American Revolution was started mainly for financial reasons. Laws and policies of England kept getting more onerous financially until colonists objected and finally revolted.said by mod_wastrel :
I guess you wonder how there ever was such a thing as the Boston Tea Party. This country was founded by people with my "attitude".
And so you think that justifies unrestricted selfish greed on the part of consumers? Uh-uh... no. That was a revolution: An illegal action, justified on grounds of conscience, not selfish financial interest. I guess you wonder how there ever was such a thing as the Boston Tea Party. This country was founded by people with my "attitude".
--
"I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants."
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shrine @ 31st Oct 02:19PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I pirate 100% of my software and never get viruses. NOD32? Don't need a crack. WinRAR doesn't, Adobe Photoshop only needs a keygen which can be run with protection. XP can use a clean disc and an established crack. SPSS, for my statistical research for psychology in graduate school, which I use to produce peer-reviewed papers? Cracked.
The fact is, there is no real benefit to the consumer in buying software, except that it's easier for them and convenient. If you have the money, take the convenience. The same goes for 1st class air flights, maids, restaurants, and having a secretary.
For the rest of us? For the millions of students, teenagers, young adults, and lower-middle class who need software to survive in today's world? We'll pirate, thanks. Your arguments against this are out of contempt and jealous; not for any concern for software companies.
This system is as it is and has developed as it has because it works. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be done.
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SnowyOne @ 31st Oct 04:12PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by shrine :
For the rest of us? For the millions of students, teenagers, young adults, and lower-middle class who need software to survive in today's world? We'll pirate, thanks.
If it's a matter of survival you could pirate food & clothing too.For the rest of us? For the millions of students, teenagers, young adults, and lower-middle class who need software to survive in today's world? We'll pirate, thanks.
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Smokey Bear @ 31st Oct 04:29PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by shrine :
I pirate 100% of my software and never get viruses. NOD32? Don't need a crack. WinRAR doesn't, Adobe Photoshop only needs a keygen which can be run with protection. XP can use a clean disc and an established crack. SPSS, for my statistical research for psychology in graduate school, which I use to produce peer-reviewed papers? Cracked.
You are a dedicated warez boy..I pirate 100% of my software and never get viruses. NOD32? Don't need a crack. WinRAR doesn't, Adobe Photoshop only needs a keygen which can be run with protection. XP can use a clean disc and an established crack. SPSS, for my statistical research for psychology in graduate school, which I use to produce peer-reviewed papers? Cracked.
The fact is, there is no real benefit to the consumer in buying software, except that it's easier for them and convenient. If you have the money, take the convenience. The same goes for 1st class air flights, maids, restaurants, and having a secretary.
And if you don't have the money, you just steal everything that isn't rocksolid nailed.You know what? You read to many stories like Robin Hood and his Merry Men: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood
--
Smokey's Security Forums »www.smokey-services.eu/forums/
Smokey's Security Weblog »smokeys.wordpress.com/
Official Jetico Inc. Support Forums »www.smokey-services.eu/
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bicker @ 31st Oct 04:40PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by mod_wastrel :
I just know your mindset.
Yes, that nasty stuff: Honor. Responsibility. Maturity. Pragmatism. Must send shivers up your spine.I just know your mindset.
said by mod_wastrel :
I truly pity you.
How incredibly self-serving and inane. But I'll bite. Do you pity the fact that I live my life with integrity? Or that practicing morality somehow degrades my quality of life? I truly pity you.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 04:46PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
You have absolute devotion to a corrupt system and a moral code that is completely dependent on it. said by mod_wastrel :
I truly pity you.
How incredibly self-serving and inane. But I'll bite. Do you pity the fact that I live my life with integrity? Or that practicing morality somehow degrades my quality of life? I truly pity you.
If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
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mod_wastrel @ 31st Oct 08:03PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law. I pity you for not honoring those who have died to create and preserve the rights and freedoms that define what this country is. I pity you for feeling no responsibility to defend those rights and freedoms yourself. I pity you for your "holier than thou" morality which condemns every view that differs from your own. I pity you for not believing that each of us has the inalienable right to choose what he or she may do with his or her own life, own body, own property. I pity you for being naive.
I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't steal. I don't pirate software or anything else and I never have. But I also don't treat anyone like a criminal for exercising their rights of ownership for those things they've paid for. "Piracy" is taking something that doesn't belong to you. The right to view the content on a DVD that I bought is something that belongs to me... the right to view that content from that DVD; that's mine. I don't own the content. I don't own the right to distribute the content. But I own the right to view that content... for as long as I own the DVD itself.
The true farce in the DVD copying issue is the encryption. It's intended (supposedly) to stop the true pirates--those who establish a "business" devoted to making bootleg copies which they can distribute. It doesn't even slow them down. But for the sake of "protecting their investment" content owners have bought and paid for legislators to pass laws to "protect" their content from being copied. Yeah, well, I bought the disc. Neither my rights nor the rights of the content owners are either increased or diminished by an act of copying that content from one disc that I own to another disc that I own, neither of which will be used by anyone other than me. No piracy. No distribution. My property.
Continue to bicker on alone, as you wish.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:21PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
You have absolute devotion to a corrupt system and a moral code that is completely dependent on it.
No I don't. You're making stuff up now to try to justify your indefensible statements. You have absolute devotion to a corrupt system and a moral code that is completely dependent on it.
said by pnjunction :
If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
Your comments just show how childish your perspective is. Grow up.If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:31PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law.
I have no problem differentiating between those things. Clearly you do. I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law.
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for not honoring those who have died to create and preserve the rights and freedoms that define what this country is.
I do indeed honor those folks. You defecate on their memory by trying to equate their convictions with the selfishness you're trying to defend.I pity you for not honoring those who have died to create and preserve the rights and freedoms that define what this country is.
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for feeling no responsibility to defend those rights and freedoms yourself.
I surely am honorable and responsible, and work tirelessly on social action to defend actual rights and freedoms, rather than the petty selfishness that you have tried to call rights and freedoms.I pity you for feeling no responsibility to defend those rights and freedoms yourself.
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for your "holier than thou" morality which condemns every view that differs from your own.
On the contrary, my religious beliefs explicitly embraces views that differ from mine, but not selfishness, not consumerism. If you were advocating murder, would you "pity me" for condemning your comments, too, on the same basis?I pity you for your "holier than thou" morality which condemns every view that differs from your own.
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for not believing that each of us has the inalienable right to choose what he or she may do with his or her own life, own body, own property.
I clearly believe that more than you do. Your problem is that you think everything you want is your "own property". Your mistake -- your error -- causes you to pervert reality and fail to recognize the evil nature of the perspectives you've espoused in this thread.I pity you for not believing that each of us has the inalienable right to choose what he or she may do with his or her own life, own body, own property.
said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for being naive.
I'm nothing close to naive. I'm also not self-centered, like the perspectives you've put forward.I pity you for being naive.
said by mod_wastrel :
The right to view the content on a DVD that I bought is something that belongs to me... the right to view that content from that DVD; that's mine.
Subject to the terms and conditions of the license you purchased. That's your problem: You want what you want without regard to what you were offered and what you purchased. You're going to insist that you bought what you wanted to purchase rather than what you purchased in reality. You've blinded yourself, perhaps, which is why you cannot see the transgressions that I've outlined.The right to view the content on a DVD that I bought is something that belongs to me... the right to view that content from that DVD; that's mine.
said by mod_wastrel :
I don't own the content. I don't own the right to distribute the content. But I own the right to view that content... for as long as I own the DVD itself.
And as long as the DVD itself remains in good condition and in your possession. Pretty much.I don't own the content. I don't own the right to distribute the content. But I own the right to view that content... for as long as I own the DVD itself.
said by mod_wastrel :
The true farce in the DVD copying issue is the encryption. It's intended (supposedly) to stop the true pirates--
Gosh, you haven't gotten one thing right in this message. Not one thing. Here again you're wrong, this time about encryption. It's intended to stop the casual pirates. You're just making up whatever you want now, with absolutely no regard for truth or honesty, eh? You're grasping at straws to try to justify your vicious and puerile attack on me. The true farce in the DVD copying issue is the encryption. It's intended (supposedly) to stop the true pirates--
I pity you.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:38PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
You seem pretty devoted to me. Rather than than defend any of the laws in terms of logic or justice, they are laws and that is enough for you.said by pnjunction :
You have absolute devotion to a corrupt system and a moral code that is completely dependent on it.
No I don't. You're making stuff up now to try to justify your indefensible statements. You have absolute devotion to a corrupt system and a moral code that is completely dependent on it.
said by pnjunction :
If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
Your comments just show how childish your perspective is. Grow up.If a new law said you had to pay for all of your content over again and submit to an anal probe you'd whip out your checkbook and bend over.
I've defended everything I've said, calling them indefensible doesn't make it so. Meanwhile, you stopped responding to my arguments a while ago. Your lack of moral independence is indefensible (that's fun...you can't possibly defend it because I've declared it so).
I was giving examples of laws that it seems like you would follow.
Can you tell me how ridiculous a law would have to get before you didn't follow it? Probably not, just more deflection, insults and condescension.
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 08:40PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
You've said nothing that indicates you differentiate between them at all. said by mod_wastrel :
I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law.
I have no problem differentiating between those things. Clearly you do.I pity you for being unable to differentiate between right and wrong, between what is justice and what is law.
You operate under the assumption that the laws are just and label any violation of them to be immoral and dishonourable.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:52PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
Rather than than defend any of the laws in terms of logic or justice, they are laws and that is enough for you.
While you object to them solely in the interest of selfish greed.Rather than than defend any of the laws in terms of logic or justice, they are laws and that is enough for you.
Two can play this game.
said by pnjunction :
I've defended everything I've said, calling them indefensible doesn't make it so.
Ridiculous. You claim that consumerist desire rationalizes lawlessness. I doubt even you believe what you're writing.I've defended everything I've said, calling them indefensible doesn't make it so.
said by pnjunction :
Your lack of moral independence is indefensible (that's fun...you can't possibly defend it because I've declared it so).
Except that you're wrong. I have moral independence. You're just engaging in a personal attack because you don't like that I've highlighted how selfish the perspectives you've been putting forward are. You're desperate to justify piracy, and you'll clearly make up whatever you think is necessary to try to deflect attention away from my pointing out the indefensible nature of the transgressive behavior you support.Your lack of moral independence is indefensible (that's fun...you can't possibly defend it because I've declared it so).
said by pnjunction :
I was giving examples of laws that it seems like you would follow.
No. You were making up stupid accusations that have no relevance nor merit whatsoever. You're acting desperate.I was giving examples of laws that it seems like you would follow.
said by pnjunction :
Can you tell me how ridiculous a law would have to get before you didn't follow it?
That's a false dichotomy. I work to change laws. For example, we used to have a law here that prohibited gay people from marrying. I worked to change that law. We were successful, and now my minister was able to marry his partner of many years. Can you tell me how ridiculous a law would have to get before you didn't follow it?
The law was ridiculous. So I worked to change it. And then once it changed, then folks were able to benefit from the law being changed. That's the mature, responsible approach: Change the law, first. Don't just violate it because you don't like it -- that's just childishness, especially with something that is just a matter of money, instead of actual human rights, like the right to marry the person you love.
said by pnjunction :
Probably not, just more deflection, insults and condescension.
You don't leave much room for anyone of conscience to provide you anything but what I provide you.Probably not, just more deflection, insults and condescension.
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bicker @ 31st Oct 08:55PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
You've said nothing that indicates you differentiate between them at all.
Sure I have. You are, again, just desperate to come up with some way to deflect. You've said nothing that indicates you differentiate between them at all.
said by pnjunction :
You operate under the assumption that the laws are just and label any violation of them to be immoral and dishonourable.
No I don't operating under such an assumption... rather, in this case, these violations we're discussing in this thread, the violations you support, are dishonorable.You operate under the assumption that the laws are just and label any violation of them to be immoral and dishonourable.
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EGeezer @ 31st Oct 09:08PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Wow, this thread sure has become a candidate for 2009's "Most Useless Degradation of Topic" :D
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:09PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
While you object to them solely in the interest of selfish greed.
Two can play this game.
What we're talking about is backing up DVDs, not pirating. You haven't responded to whether this particular action is 'selfish greed'. Do you think so or not?While you object to them solely in the interest of selfish greed.
Two can play this game.
I'm not justifiying piracy. You're putting words in my mouth because you're desperate (accusations of desperation are fun too).
I'll ask again so you'll have a harder time dodging: Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed? How about banning backups so people have to buy the DVD again if they scratch it?
Regarding changing laws, how much luck do you realistically think we have of getting fair laws that allow this type of behaviour, which the vast majority of people think is reasonable?
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pnjunction @ 31st Oct 09:20PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Anyways I'm done arguing about this.
The reality is that the more unreasonable the law the more people are going to ignore it.
In a way the courts and justice system don't really back up these laws either, let me know if someone loses a court case about backing up a DVD or some music that they purchased. It's all bark and no bite to scare people into compliance.
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fatness @ 31st Oct 09:56PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by EGeezer :
Wow, this thread sure has become a candidate for 2009's "Most Useless Degradation of Topic" :D
Wow, this thread sure has become a candidate for 2009's "Most Useless Degradation of Topic" :D
--
"I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants."
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bicker @ 1st Nov 06:25AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by pnjunction :
Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed?
Yes, since you're taking something that you didn't pay for, without the agreement of the person who has the rights to charge you for what you're taking. You're not doing anything noble; you're not protecting anyone from harm; you're not fighting for anyone's freedom: You're doing something that you're not permitted to, solely in the interest of your own bank account -- that's selfish greed. If you want the right to make unrestricted copies of content, have your lawyers contact the content owner and negotiate for that right.Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed?
said by pnjunction :
How about banning backups so people have to buy the DVD again if they scratch it?
That is the law. You can contrast this to computer software, where there is such a right provided to you. If the intention was to give you that right for CDs or DVDs, then they would be included in that provision regarding computer software. So essentially, copying a CD or DVD is nothing but selfish greed on the part of the transgressive consumer, focused only on themselves and what they want, rather than on what they were offered and what they were sold, disrespecting the the law -- a wholly dishonorable behavior, which you've seen fit to defend.How about banning backups so people have to buy the DVD again if they scratch it?
said by pnjunction :
Regarding changing laws, how much luck do you realistically think we have of getting fair laws that allow this type of behaviour
Doesn't matter. If I wanted to just take my neighbor's tomatoes, the fact that I failed to get a law passed allowing me to do so does not excuse my transgression in taking those tomatoes without permission.Regarding changing laws, how much luck do you realistically think we have of getting fair laws that allow this type of behaviour
said by pnjunction :
which the vast majority of people think is reasonable
See above, regarding the discussion of consumers being two-faced. Essentially, a majority of people do not believe what you claim -- many people don't really even believe what they themselves claim. Many consumers tend to pay nothing more than lip-service to your consumerist beliefs, but then vote the pro-business thing. So those who agree with you can claim victory regarding meaningless blathering, while those who agree with me can claim victory for our perspective in reality and in practice.which the vast majority of people think is reasonable
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pnjunction @ 1st Nov 08:16AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
That is the law.
Again you lean on the letter of the law without really discussing the issue. Conversation is pointless.That is the law.
Have a good day! Be careful with your DVDs!
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NormanS @ 1st Nov 01:04PM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
Funny thing about that. I paid for the CD. I didn't "take" anything by ripping it. You are discussing an area of law which isn't clearly defined, but precedent tends to lean in favor of the consumer, where similar theories ("time shifting") have been tried by the content owners; and they have lost.said by pnjunction :
Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed?
Yes, since you're taking something that you didn't pay for, without the agreement of the person who has the rights to charge you for what you're taking.Do you think backing up a DVD so you don't lose it to a scratch is selfish greed?
Technically, VCRs and DVRs should be illegal; but they are not.
If the RIAA catches me distributing copies of their CDs, they have clear grounds for complaint. If they catch me playing them at public exhibitions, including background music in my shop, they have grounds for complaint. But what about private exhibitions (where I invite friends, but don't charge a fee)? Or piping a ripped file from my computer to another room over the LAN (not the Internet)?
The problem is, if the content owners can hammer me for doing that, I'll just not buy there shit at all; then where will they be? At least they got my money when I bought the CD.
P.S.: While I have "pirated" a handful of tunes from out of print discs, I have not "pirated" any RIAA properties at all (I am reasonably certain that those handful of tunes are not RIAA properties). Since 1996 I have spent over $4,000 on CDs. RIAA members probably only got about $60 of that total (unless the foreign labels I bought are RIAA members). I don't have enough money to buy from RIAA members, and from non-members. So that $4,000 represents "sales lost" by them because they did not offer something I wanted. I have not traded in .mp3s of their properties. I have downloaded, legally, a hundred, or so, of their titles on a trial bases for a new store selling tunes by the track. But I download those files within the terms of the trial, so they are legal.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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anon @ 5th Nov 10:58PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
right, basically, yes i am a software pirate, or rather, i am a pirated software end user (there is a difference) does that make me a bad person? no.
Facts: 1. When you buy a computer it comes with "Free trial versions" of software you dont even want, do the companies lose money from this? of course they dont... the PC manufacturer pays them to let them install it, then if you want it, and pay for it they get paid AGAIN
2. Have you ever actually read an EULA it basically reads as follows (i paraphrase obviously): We, the "multinational company who have sold you this software own this software, it is ours, even after you install it on your computer, even if you paid for the disc, its ours, what you are paying for is the right to use your lovely software, even if it screws over your pc, (and this does happen, example? Windows Vista ) We will monitor whatever you do on this software if you have an internet connection, and may at any point decide you are no longer allowed to use it, if it doesnt work when you install it thats tough, even though we have put very vague recommended system requirements on the box that usually dont correspond to what it will actually run on, thats not our problem, thank you for giving us our £70 (or whatever) its now your problem not ours.
3. A pirated software download is NOT a lost sale, for example, i downloaded Age of Empires 3.... i wouldn't have bought it as i'm not that into Age of Empires, but wanted to give it a go, if there IS software i like, (for example the Dawn of War series) i pay for it, if im just playing around, im not spending my hard earned money on it full stop.
Im not actually stealing when I download pirated software.... its only stealing when i use it. and if thats very rarely, im only rarely a pirate
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OZO @ 6th Nov 12:43AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by bicker :
I surely am honorable and responsible, and work tirelessly on social action to defend actual rights and freedoms
:D :D :D That's pathetic. :DI surely am honorable and responsible, and work tirelessly on social action to defend actual rights and freedoms
From all your posts it's clear that you're only working for your bottom line and nothing else... Good luck defending all those **AA companies and their based on unlimited greed ideas.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...
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Tyreman @ 6th Nov 06:03AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
Vista never screwed over my pc
--
Southern Ontario,Canada
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Vampirefo @ 6th Nov 06:04AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by Tyreman :
Vista never screwed over my pc
Nor mine, cause i never used it, LMAO.Vista never screwed over my pc
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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bicker @ 6th Nov 07:55AM:
Re: Personal Archival Copy != Fair Use; Fair Use = defense,not r
said by OZO :
What is pathetic is the general disrespect for honor and responsibility on the part of people advocating for the piracy perspective. Despicable. :uhh:said by bicker :
I surely am honorable and responsible, and work tirelessly on social action to defend actual rights and freedoms
:D :D :D That's pathetic. :DI surely am honorable and responsible, and work tirelessly on social action to defend actual rights and freedoms
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rawwhide @ 6th Nov 09:11AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
It doesn't seem like its going to die. Its like the Energizer bunny. It keeps on going and going and going and going and going!!! :D
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.
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The Snowman @ 6th Nov 10:49AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
" Multi-room Transfers (if you have more than one broadband-connected TiVo); TiVo Desktop (the ability to transfer programs to a personal computer, from which you can view the programs, or serve them back to the TiVo) "
" the best Trick Play implementation; Regex (kind of) Wishlists for searching for and automatically recording programs; TiVo Suggestions (which I use quite a bit); etc. "
_______________________
Gee, now who was it that said they record programs ?
www.dslreports.com/forum/r23186908-Re-DVR-transfer-and-3rd-party-options
_________________________
hmmmm, did that same person also say that was illegal ?
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bicker @ 6th Nov 12:16PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
You do realize that there is a difference between legal (permission granted) and illegal (no permission granted) copying, right?
Get a grip. Stop trying to excuse dishonorable behavior.
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 04:17PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
They only way that's honorable and making a backup for yourself isn't is if your code of honor is dependent on corporate-lobbied laws.
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bicker @ 6th Nov 04:37PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by pnjunction :
There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
I don't do that. Go back and read the thread and you'll see what I was referring to when I mentioned being honorable and responsible. It is a matter of accepting the obligations onto yourself when you enter into an agreement, even when you don't particularly like some of the terms and conditions. Either that or maturely deciding to do without something. Your choice... either is honorable. Anything else, such as making up your own, self-centered and greedy conditions, because you're a consumer and you can probably get away with it, is dishonorable, disrespectful, irresponsible, puerile, selfish.There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
said by pnjunction :
They only way that's honorable and making a backup for yourself isn't is if your code of honor is dependent on corporate-lobbied laws.
What self-serving bullpuckies. If you don't like the terms and condtions, don't buy! If you don't like the laws, get 'em changed. But don't think for a minute that you have any justification whatsoever for making up your own self-motivated rules. They only way that's honorable and making a backup for yourself isn't is if your code of honor is dependent on corporate-lobbied laws.
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MeDuZa @ 6th Nov 07:40PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
--
Reality corrupted. Reboot universe? (Y/N)
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NormanS @ 6th Nov 08:53PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by pnjunction :
There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
I see. So, if my book becomes damage, say, a page is torn out by a borrower, I am entitled to a free replacement book from the publisher?There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
Just asking. In any case, I did have a CD become damaged, and I did buy a replacement. Didn't think anything of it. Got a damaged book that I'd like replaced, too. I will, when I get enough set aside ($60 dictionary; no, a cheap paperback is no substitute for a kanji dictionary cataloging over 30,000 characters).
Yes, I have ripped CDs. But for something akin to "time shifting". So I can play the tunes from my computer. But I won't borrow from the library, and rip. If I like the CD that much, I will buy it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 08:58PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
First, the conditions are greedy on behalf of the companies. Many wouldn't even stand up in court.
As far as "don't buy" believe me I don't and wish people didn't. I don't buy any DVD/CD movies/music because of the terms and the greediness of the industry. For people who really want media though, there is no choice. Everything in the store comes with the same insane conditions.
What most don't realize is that these crazy conditions are just hot air. What are the consequences of breaking them? Find me a court case against somebody who backed up a DVD. They wouldn't even win, and they know this, so they keep out of the legal system and stick to bribing politicians to make paper-tiger laws to scare people.
The reality is that these conditions 'work' on people like you and just about nobody else. The industry knows this. Instead of making them reasonable, they make them as beneficial as they can to themselves because some tools will be loyal no matter what. The pirates are lost anyways, why not take the landlubbers for as much as you can?
Instead of admitting that they their conditions are ridiculous they know that many people are 'scared straight and others like you will follow them (or say they do) anyways out of some misguided sense of morality and self-righteously wag your finger at others.
These laws aren't getting changed for the better, they're only going to get worse. Things like civil rights play well in the media, things like this get terrible amounts of pro-corporate spin from corporate-owned media and never gain any traction.
I'm already 'protesting', I haven't bought a movie or CD in over 10 years. This isn't something I care enough about to go beyond that except for a few forum arguments with a zealot here or there.
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pnjunction @ 6th Nov 09:02PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by NormanS :
Yes, I have ripped CDs. But for something akin to "time shifting". So I can play the tunes from my computer. But I won't borrow from the library, and rip. If I like the CD that much, I will buy it.
If you have a photocopy of that page sure, glue it back in there, even though the publisher would probably say you shouldn't have made the copy even if all you do is stick it in a drawer in case you need it. A new book would cost the publisher to provide, you 'backing up' the book on your own costs them nothing and protects your purchase.said by pnjunction :
There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
I see. So, if my book becomes damage, say, a page is torn out by a borrower, I am entitled to a free replacement book from the publisher?There's nothing honorable about making people to buy a DVD or CD over again if it gets scratched.
Yes, I have ripped CDs. But for something akin to "time shifting". So I can play the tunes from my computer. But I won't borrow from the library, and rip. If I like the CD that much, I will buy it.
You're tainted and going to hell for having ripped a CD anyways. Shame on you and your self-centred greed. If you didn't like that you have to play from the CD and you are boned when if gets scratched, you shouldn't have bought it.
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SnowyOne @ 6th Nov 09:24PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by bicker :
It is a matter of accepting the obligations onto yourself when you enter into an agreement, even when you don't particularly like some of the terms and conditions.
Reading through this thread I keep thinking, It is a matter of accepting the obligations onto yourself when you enter into an agreement, even when you don't particularly like some of the terms and conditions.
"Let he who is without sin..."
I can't decide whether it's harder to be you or to be around you.
I can't imagine what an adult who never breaks any agreement would be like.
The first & most obvious flaw that I see in such an honorable adult is the agreement they make with their State when they agree to follow all traffic laws & posted speed limits as a condition of the State issuing a drivers license.
I don't believe it's possible for an adult to be in 100% compliance with that agreement, but it looks as if you are either that exception or you operate with challenged moral values.
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KrK @ 6th Nov 10:06PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
73% Of statistics are made up on the spot. :D
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Rexter @ 6th Nov 10:07PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
96.3% of people agree with you on that.
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KrK @ 6th Nov 10:10PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
... with a +/- 8% margin of error.
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Vampirefo @ 6th Nov 11:45PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
said by SnowyOne :
"Let he who is without sin..."
I can't decide whether it's harder to be you or to be around you.
I can't imagine what an adult who never breaks any agreement would be like.
The first & most obvious flaw that I see in such an honorable adult is the agreement they make with their State when they agree to follow all traffic laws & posted speed limits as a condition of the State issuing a drivers license.
I don't believe it's possible for an adult to be in 100% compliance with that agreement, but it looks as if you are either that exception or you operate with challenged moral values.
Agreed, bicker is just a joke, not some one to be taken seriously. Of course he would love for people to do what he says, he is a dictator, but no room for him in my life. I simply do what I want and pay no attention to him.said by bicker :
It is a matter of accepting the obligations onto yourself when you enter into an agreement, even when you don't particularly like some of the terms and conditions.
Reading through this thread I keep thinking, It is a matter of accepting the obligations onto yourself when you enter into an agreement, even when you don't particularly like some of the terms and conditions.
"Let he who is without sin..."
I can't decide whether it's harder to be you or to be around you.
I can't imagine what an adult who never breaks any agreement would be like.
The first & most obvious flaw that I see in such an honorable adult is the agreement they make with their State when they agree to follow all traffic laws & posted speed limits as a condition of the State issuing a drivers license.
I don't believe it's possible for an adult to be in 100% compliance with that agreement, but it looks as if you are either that exception or you operate with challenged moral values.
--
Best Regards Vampirefo
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EGeezer @ 7th Nov 01:09AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
My butt itches.
I'm sure that's Divine punishment for having copied my Burl Ives recording of "Kentucky Turkey Buzzard" to MP3 format.
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anon @ 7th Nov 01:10AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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The Snowman @ 7th Nov 02:02AM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
While not a doctor......a "guess" would be that "B" could possibly experience a Narcissistic personality disorder.......sometimes referred to as the "the God complex"
Also, this Topic appears to be his Demon......the Topic "owns" him..... an he may find it impossible to walk away from it....................
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anon @ 8th Nov 12:30PM:
Re: Report: 41 Percent of Personal Computing Software Is Pirated
I don't even use warez, i pay for my software. I support the creators of the software...Why would i use cracked software from a group that can also come with surprises you never expected.
But unfortunately people don't like paying for things.
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