[General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing Page 3
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josephf @ 6th Nov 10:34AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
The FCC regulates when and where POTS can allow users to dial 7-digits or 10/11 digits.
Very arcane rules.
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RockyBB @ 6th Nov 12:03PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
no, the FCC does not regulate dialed digits. It's the North American Numbering Plan Administration, which is an arm of Neustar, Inc. and funded by all the telcos.
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PX Eliezer @ 6th Nov 12:38PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by RockyBB :
no, the FCC does not regulate dialed digits. It's the North American Numbering Plan Administration, which is an arm of Neustar, Inc. and funded by all the telcos.
Rocky:
This 11 digit policy actually was a previous FCC reg, but I believe they now modified it to allow 10 or 11 digits. (Certainly here in NJ we have multiple area codes and overlays, but can use 10 digits with Verizon).
"This FCC requirement is designed to ensure that competing local phone companies are not disadvantaged by the use of an "overlay" area code. Thus, customers of all local phone companies have to dial the same number of digits to place a call, putting all customers in the same situation - on a level playing field. The mandatory 1 + 10-digit dialing ensures uniform dialing requirements for all local phone customers in regions served by overlay area codes."
---That's from the New York State Public Service Commission (NYS-PSC) and I have also come across it on the FCC's own pages.
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josephf @ 6th Nov 01:34PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
The FCC generally (assuming it doesn't issue an exemption) requires by regulation, 10/11 digit dialing in areas with an overlay. Their logic is that it evens the playing field for CLEC's which are more likely than the ILEC's to have assigned their customers numbers in the new (overlayed) area code.
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anon @ 6th Nov 05:08PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
Question:
My company has an Avaya phone system. We have Incoming Call Routes that state if a call comes from 312-555-5555, for example, then route that call through a specific call attendant menu (dial 1 for human, 2 for fax number, 3 for directions, etc.)
After Saturday, will the telcos change the Incoming Caller ID to include the "1"? If so, then my incoming call route 'rules' will break, as they are based on a 10 digit incoming number.
I havent seen any mention of changes in what appears for the Incoming Caller ID once this overlay takes effect.
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wierdo @ 6th Nov 05:26PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by nycityny :
Well, dialing "1" has never been a signal of whether a call is free or long distance.
Never say never. Toll alerting used to be very common, and indeed still is among some landline carriers.
AT&T Southwest (formerly Southwestern Bell) still uses it in my area. You can't dial a toll call without 11 digits. Of course, it has much less value these days now that a lot of people are on unlimited long distance plans or have extended area calling plans.
Prior to the area code expansion, within the area code one could dial 1+7 digits to other exchanges in the area code. (Which in Arkansas at the time was the entire state) Allowing 2-8 in the middle digit of the area code required going to 11 digits for long distance so as to disambiguate exchanges and area codes.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)
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WAVZuser @ 7th Nov 04:17AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
This suggests that most provider's Routing Tables have probably not yet been updated to include these exchanges ... including the 872-872-1872 number.
But the whole point of the test number is for phone companies, PBX operators, etc. to verify that their users will be able to dial the new area code as of the effective date. It's been available since 10/14. See PL-392, under "network testing."
»nanpa.com/pdf/PL_392.pdf
I know that I was able to dial it with Virgin Mobile (Sprint) since at least a couple of weeks ago, and I imagine the same is true for most of the major landline companies and cellphone providers worldwide. But even as of now, technically the area code's effective date, it's still not dialable on Vonage.
Maybe they'll have fixed it by Monday, or maybe they'll wait until customers try to dial the area code and can't. Who knows? I just find it a little surprising.
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soitgoes2 @ 7th Nov 04:37AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by wierdo :
Never say never. Toll alerting used to be very common, and indeed still is among some landline carriers.
...Prior to the area code expansion, within the area code one could dial 1+7 digits to other exchanges in the area code.
Yep. Here from the landlines you can't dial long distance within our area code unless you dial a 1 (eight digit dialing OR 11 digit dialing, both work). If you just dial 7 digits, you get a message saying that you must first dial a 1 as it is long distance.
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WAVZuser @ 7th Nov 04:39AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by wierdo :
Never say never. Toll alerting used to be very common, and indeed still is among some landline carriers.
Toll alerting is still very common in the US. AFAIK, it's required of the local landline company in every state except California, New York, Illinois, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Maine, whose residents are somehow supposed to know what is a toll call and what isn't.
Other than in those states, a local call has to go thru as seven digits if to the same area code, or ten if to a different area code or the same area code in an overlay. But a leading 1 must be required for all toll calls, even in the same area code.
said by wierdo :
Prior to the area code expansion, within the area code one could dial 1+7 digits to other exchanges in the area code. (Which in Arkansas at the time was the entire state) Allowing 2-8 in the middle digit of the area code required going to 11 digits for long distance so as to disambiguate exchanges and area codes.
Actually it was a similar but different change that preceded the area code expansion that caused that. To make new numbers available without creating new area codes, 0 or 1 was allowed as the middle digit of the exchange. So to make a long distance call within your area code 11 digits became necessary as the switch no longer had any way of determining whether the 3 digits following the 1 were an area code or an exchange.
This happened as early as 1974, in area code 213, and continued in other area codes throughout the following years. But area codes with middle digits other than 0 or 1 weren't supportable until 1995.
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usa2k @ 7th Nov 07:59AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by WAVZuser :said by N9MD :
This suggests that most provider's Routing Tables have probably not yet been updated to include these exchanges ... including the 872-872-1872 number.
But the whole point of the test number is for phone companies, ...
What do you hear if successful?
--
Jim, VoIP 12/2002, VOIPo 2/2007
FAH-Tool~Pets~Join Artist-24
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N9MD @ 7th Nov 09:07AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by WAVZuser :
But the whole point of the test number ...
...I know that I was able to dial it with Virgin Mobile (Sprint) since at least a couple of weeks ago
By your own reporting, the test number works with Virgin Mobile. Thus, the problem reflects the failure of Vonage ... or the CLEC that controls your DID ... or the routing service used by the CLEC ... to update the Routing Table used for your DID's outgoing calls.
Here's the relevant paragraph from your NANPA reference:
NETWORK TESTING
All international and domestic carriers should insure that the new 872 NPA has been activated throughout their networks. The test number to verify the routing to the new 872 NPA is 872-872-1872 and will be available starting October 14, 2009 until December 7, 2009. A recorded announcement will indicate that the test call has been successfully completed.
Some additional information may be gained from this post from April 2009: »groups.yahoo.com/group/centralof···age/5565
Scroll down to ILLINOIS.
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usa2k @ 7th Nov 09:14AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
I get a 6-3 error from VOIPo dialing 872-872-1872.
[att=1]
Likely Level3 or such. I would expect all VOIPo calls go 11 digits when dialing 7/10/11 and speed dials.
BTW: That was *28 872-872-1872 for VOIPo Call Record.
(Same if without *28 dialed.)
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N9MD @ 7th Nov 09:37AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by usa2k :
I get a 6-3 error from VOIPo dialing 872-872-1872.
I'm not absolutely, completely, totally, conclusively, unconditionally certain ... but I believe that this specific local test number is only usable from a Chicago area phone line with a 773, 312 or 872 AC. The only purpose for this number is to confirm the dialing pattern that a Chicagoan must use to reach the new AC872 numbers --- 11-, 10- or 7-digit dialing. It would be of no use to people outside the Chicago area codes since all of those outsiders would have to use 11-digit dialing (from PSTN phones).
The light dawns! If my thinking is correct, then Vonage and other VoIP services, even those in the Chicago area, will never be able to use the test number successfully ... because the VoIP dial plans and internet to PSTN connection are handled differently.
EDIT: As per RockyBB's and Fisamo's posts below, my theory has been shot full of holes. :(
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usa2k @ 7th Nov 09:40AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
That is a great epiphany!
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RockyBB @ 7th Nov 11:27AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
Thus, the problem reflects the failure of Vonage ... or the CLEC that controls your DID ... or the routing service used by the CLEC ... to update the Routing Table used for your DID's outgoing calls.
Did you not see my post above? Whatever CLEC handles your DID is not relevant to outgoing calls. This is VOIP, which is virtual, not POTS that has physical lines. DID = Direct INWARD Dialing.
Let's not forget the basics. DID numbers assigned by CLECs when dialed deliver calls to VOIP carrier. There is no direct connection or relationship between end user and CLEC. When end user makes an outbound call it's sent to final destination using whatever long haul facilities or gateways VOIP carrier designates at the moment, completely unrelated to the DID number of the end-user.
So the CLEC of the DID number has nothing to do with the completion of outbound calls.
Just like some of our friends here choose one carrier for incoming calls, and another carrier for outgoing calls, VOIP providers do the same thing.
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Fisamo @ 7th Nov 11:27AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
Except... I just successfully connected with my Verizon Wireless phone (based in NC). "You have reached the new overlay area code 872-872-1872 test number."
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Stewart @ 7th Nov 12:11PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by RockyBB :
Whatever CLEC handles your DID is not relevant to outgoing calls. This is VOIP, which is virtual, not POTS that has physical lines. DID = Direct INWARD Dialing.
IMHO that is not always true. In the early days of SunRocket, I had a problem with popping noises that seemed to only affect local calls. I noticed that if I registered under a signature number in a distant city, calls to my hometown became unimpaired. I couldn't understand how that could possibly make a difference, until one of the higher level support guys explained it:
Their routing software analyzed the calling and called numbers; 'local' calls were then sent to the CLEC serving the calling number, rather than choosing the least cost route. With most of their CLECs, SR was able to negotiate better rates for DIDs, by agreeing to use the CLEC to terminate calls in their area.
A big technical advantage was also promised, but it never happened: On local calls, the RTP stream would be routed to the CLEC's media server in your area, greatly reducing latency. AFAIK Teleblend still forces all media streams through their border controllers.
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RockyBB @ 7th Nov 12:23PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by Stewart :said by RockyBB :
Whatever CLEC handles your DID is not relevant to outgoing calls. This is VOIP, which is virtual, not POTS that has physical lines. DID = Direct INWARD Dialing.
IMHO that is not always true.
not always true, but I didn't say it's never true ... in your case it was coincidentally true due to the nature of the negotiated deal, which other carriers might not negotiate ... nevertheless your anecdote does not contradict my assessment as SR was evaluating the phone number before deciding what to do with it. In the case in this thread, if SR didn't know about the new area code, it wouldn't have a translation built and would block the call prior to passing it off to whatever termination carrier. So in our discussion about this test number for the area code overlay the Vonage customers should be blaming Vonage not their DID CLEC carrier.
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N9MD @ 7th Nov 12:26PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by RockyBB :
Did you not see my post above?
I bow to your omniscience, RockyBB. I have to play closer attention! ;)
said by Fisamo :
I just successfully connected with my Verizon Wireless phone (based in NC). "You have reached the new overlay area code 872-872-1872 test number."
My PhonePower DID connected and got that message. My CallCentric and Voip.ms accounts just gave me dead air. I cannot check VOIPo 'cause I'm not in my Florida location at the moment.
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usa2k @ 7th Nov 01:50PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
My PhonePower DID connected and got that message.
The one I attached earlier? Or a message of success?
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mel2000 @ 7th Nov 02:49PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
My T-mobile cellphone connects to 872-872-1872 just fine, but my Google Voice call to it via Sipgate just rings and rings.
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jay_rm @ 7th Nov 03:44PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
I cannot check VOIPo 'cause I'm not in my Florida location at the moment.
My VOIPo account gave me the 6-3 error message noted above.
My VIATALK account got me through to the proper recording.
Both tests were from numbers within the SAME local exchange number block, in a far suburban Chicago area code.
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !'
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N9MD @ 7th Nov 03:48PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by usa2k :said by N9MD :
My PhonePower DID connected and got that message.
The one I attached earlier? Or a message of success?
"You have reached the new overlay 872-872-1872 test number."
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WAVZuser @ 8th Nov 02:56AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
Thus, the problem reflects the failure of Vonage
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying.
I guess we misunderstood each other's posts. I thought you were saying that the test number should not have been activated or available at all for any company to connect to before the area code effective date. I interpreted your quoting the effective date of number assignments with the new area code to mean that that is when you thought those carriers should be able to make outgoing calls to a/c 872.
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WAVZuser @ 8th Nov 03:49AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
If I'm understanding the situation correctly, here is what's happening:
----------------------------
If your area code is 312 or 773 and:
You are a landline (ILEC) customer you must now dial all calls as 11 digits, whereas you were previously able to dial local calls within the same area code as 7 digits.
You are a cell phone customer you must dial all local calls as 10 or 11 digits, whereas 7 digits were allowed in the same area code.
You are a Voip customer, in most cases you can still dial 7, 10, or 11 digits to numbers with the same area code.
-----
If you get an 872 number:
Dial all numbers as 11 digits on a landline, or 10 on a cell phone. For obvious reasons, there was never 7-digit local dialing on overlay area code 872.
But you will be able to dial all other 872 numbers with just 7 digits on most VoIP providers.
----
If your area code is any other:
You dial the number just as you always have, but will not be able to dial calls into the new area code 872 until your phone company makes it active in their network, which some apparently still haven't.
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garys_2k @ 8th Nov 10:45PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
My Future 9 line reached 872-872-1872 with no problems, I got the voice reply. My Callcentric line gave me dead air.
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WAVZuser @ 11th Nov 09:11AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
The test number is working with Vonage now.
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PX Eliezer @ 11th Nov 09:32AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
Thank God we don't have to dial 10 or 11 digits on a rotary phone!
-------------------------
It is interesting that so much attention is being paid to this one area code change. So many area code changes all the time, all over the country.
New area codes just this year also include 475 (CT), 681 (WV), 385 (UT), 442 (CA), 458 (OR), 747 (CA), and others.
Why so much fuss about Chicago? New York City has added so many area codes over the years....
-------------------------
Here's one guy whose multi-million dollar house burned down because he didn't update his alarm system with a new area code:
»www.dailynews.com/news/ci_12259447
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WAVZuser @ 11th Nov 10:20AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by PX Eliezer :
It is interesting that so much attention is being paid to this one area code change.
Do you mean here on this forum or in general?
I don't think it's getting more attention than the other changes in general, but it may be here, simply because someone opened a thread about it.
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WAVZuser @ 11th Nov 10:35AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by PX Eliezer :
Thank God we don't have to dial 10 or 11 digits on a rotary phone!
I just timed it, using the old rotary phone I still have from my childhood home. (Yes, I'm old.)
It took seven seconds to dial 1-909. 909 is the area code with the largest number of rotary pulses.
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joako @ 11th Nov 09:46PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by WAVZuser :
The 872 area code is still not activated by my local Vonage carrier (Level3, formerly Focal). If I call the test number 872-872-1872 I get an error message.
When I call it from my Virgin Mobile (Sprint) cell phone, on the other hand, it goes through.
I get the message "Welcome to Verizon wireless. You can can not be completed. Please check the number..." when I call that test #. Similar message from AT&T phones.
Also what about cell phone users? I can dial 10 digits anywhere in the country and I am pretty used to that (same thing from my voip phones) does this mean to call Chicago now I need to dial 11 digits from a mobile phone?
--
PRescott7-2097
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PX Eliezer @ 11th Nov 10:59PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by joako :
Also what about cell phone users? I can dial 10 digits anywhere in the country and I am pretty used to that (same thing from my voip phones) does this mean to call Chicago now I need to dial 11 digits from a mobile phone?
Not at all.
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N9MD @ 11th Nov 11:35PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by PX Eliezer :said by joako :
Also what about cell phone users? I can dial 10 digits anywhere in the country and I am pretty used to that (same thing from my voip phones) does this mean to call Chicago now I need to dial 11 digits from a mobile phone?
Not at all.
PX Eliezer's surprisingly terse response is correct. ;) I've used my ATT/Cingular/CellularOne (all the same company at one time or another) cell phone in Hawaii, Alaska, Southern CA, Seattle, Maine, Florida ... coveing all "corners" of the US ... making calls to lots of US locations ... with and without the leading "1". All of the calls have been completed successfully.
On the other hand, as has been mentioned, I am constantly confused by the inconsistent POTS dialing requirements for "local", "local long distance", "intrastate/interlata", "interstate" calling --- throughout the US.
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WAVZuser @ 11th Nov 11:59PM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
On the other hand, as has been mentioned, I am constantly confused by the inconsistent POTS dialing requirements for "local", "local long distance", "intrastate/interlata", "interstate" calling --- throughout the US.
Yes, it has become a clusterfuck in recent years. It could have been handled better.
But anyway, to know how you should dial, go to »nanpa.com/nas/public/npa_query_s···ortModel and enter the area code of the number you are dialing from.
This will tell you what the dialing requirements are if you are using POTS or a cell phone. (But remember, even in situations where a leading 1 is required by POTS it's still not required on a cell phone.)
VoIP is generally 7, 10, or 11 digits on calls to the same area code and 10 or 11 to calls to a different area code.
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PX Eliezer @ 12th Nov 12:00AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
said by N9MD :
PX Eliezer's surprisingly terse response is correct. ;)
Thanks. :)
I view my response not as terse, but rather as pithy. ;)
-----------------------------------------
When dealing with:
a) Straightforward questions and answers.
b) Colonoscopies.
c) Injections.
d) Bank robberies.
....my view is that they should be carefully planned, but then in actually doing it, it's best to go in and out quickly..... :p
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WAVZuser @ 12th Nov 12:15AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
I notice that they haven't updated the site to reflect the fact that Home NPA Local Calls from the 312 and 773 area codes now require 11 digits.
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PX Eliezer @ 12th Nov 12:41AM:
Re: [General] Chicago Going to 11 Digit Dialing
Lisa Hook, who did so well at SunRocket, now runs the NANPA.
So---I ain't surprised.
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