Cogeco Drops Metered Billing On Users - Unveils caps ranging from 10GB to 100GB
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Cogeco Drops Metered Billing On Users
Unveils caps ranging from 10GB to 100GB
(old news - 10:02AM Thursday Apr 02 2009)
tags: prices · business · bandwidth · Op/Ed · cable · consumers · caps · Cogeco Cable
Tipped by fatness
On the heels of Time Warner Cable's announcement yesterday that they'd be expanding metered billing trials in the States, Canadian cable ISP Cogego has dropped the news on customers in our forums that they'll be imposing metered billing on users. Bravely taking the brunt of the user complaints directly, Cogeco network engineer Krispy is fielding questions from users about the new shift. According to Cogeco, the new caps will be as follows:
Lite – 10GB/mo bitcap - $2.50 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Lite Plus – 20GB/mo bitcap - $2.00 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Standard – 60GB/mo bitcap - $1.50 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Pro – 100GB/mo bitcap - $1.00 per GB over to a maximum of $50
Users will start seeing usage charges on their bills in April and May but will not be charged officially until June -- as part of an apparent plan to get users used to the amount of bandwidth they use and the extra charges they'll incur. Everything counts toward your cap except Cogeco VoIP traffic, and users will be notified via e-mail when they get close to the cap. According to Cogeco, they'll be offering a new meter on their portal page.

The shift to metered billing started in Canada roughly a year ago, when Canadian carrier Rogers began imposing caps ranging from 2-95GB, with users on the lowest tier incurring overage charges of up to $5 per gigabyte.

For its part, Cogeco insists the shift to metered billing was necessary because the "reality is that 'bandwidth' is not free," according to Krispy. "While transit may appear cheap, the reality is a network like this takes continual maintenance and upgrades to get the transit to and from you," she says, adding that this is "just a natural evolution of the technology" and "not a money grab."

Charging per gigabyte is more forced migration than natural evolution -- the impetus originates with investors and executives who fear the impact Internet video will have on TV revenues. Imposing such low caps in the age of HD video -- and charging users $1-$5 per gigabyte for bandwidth that costs a carrier pennies -- is a money grab, and it's only made possible by a lack of sustained, viable competition and napping regulators.

While carriers correctly note there are obviously other costs beyond bandwidth that go into providing service -- those costs are more than covered by advertising, alternative revenue and the monthly charges customers are currently paying. Meanwhile, evidence suggests heavy users can be handled without resorting to metered billing by imposing a very high cap (like Comcast's 250GB cap in the States), and by nudging those users -- which carriers freely admit only make up a small fraction of their userbase -- onto a business-class of service.

As with Time Warner Cable yesterday, the argument that carriers don't make enough money under the existing flat-rate system to operate or support infrastructure upgrades is something simply not supported by the healthy profits clearly illustrated in earnings reports. Anybody bothered by the metered billing trend should be demanding hard numbers from any carrier boldly claiming that flat-rate pricing isn't a completely viable business model.

Related:
  1. Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
  2. Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes
  3. Cogeco Metered Billing Goes Live, Confuses Customers
  4. Mythbusters' Savage The Latest Socked With Huge 3G Bill
  5. Cogeco Tells Us They're Working On Meter Problems...
  6. Time Warner Cable GETS MORE EXTREME!!!
  7. Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
  8. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
Links: New Topic
Forums »

baineschile @ 2nd Apr 10:12AM:
Personally...

I love caps.

Just kidding, but i know this subject riles people up more than any other on this site.

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 10:15AM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
Even Tw business class has caps of the same usage. so how would business class help again?
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 10:16AM:
vote with your money.

Disconnect and tell them to goto hell.
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atuarre @ 2nd Apr 10:18AM:
RE

I think in a situation where a company is going to metered, where someone will pay overages, they ought to give residential users at least, the option to enable additional bandwidth if they exceed the cap instead of just switching to overage charges or we will see situations like in the wireless industry where users go over the cap and get the bill and then are shocked and refuse to pay.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 10:19AM:
Not a money grab? Right...

Blatant money grab. Not everyone likes being turned upside down and shaken for their pocket change.
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ropeguru @ 2nd Apr 10:19AM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
Really?? Lets see, 4GB per movie on average gives a family around 25 movies per month not including anything else they might want to download. So a family that likes to watch different movies at the same time, like to play online games which require large downloads at times, and do web browsing and maybe upload pictures of the family to a web site should be on a business class account or they are just pirates stealing from others.

I like your thoughts. NOT! Maybe you should go to work for these crooked companies. I am sure they would love to have you.
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DrunkenClam @ 2nd Apr 10:28AM:
The prices of the tiers make this even more of a horror

Also keep in mind the pro package is 74.95 a month. Mix that with over charges and using something like 120 gigs a month would cost 94.95 a month plus Canada has 13 percent tax on that!

So Cogeco wants us to pay 107.24 for using 120 gigs a month. That is just way overpriced.

Don't get me wrong though, this is much better then what they did before and just terminate your service if you go over and no questions asked. That was a bastard thing to do.
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Mr Matt @ 2nd Apr 10:28AM:
Re: vote with your money.

:( Unfortunately many customers do not have a choice. It is either Cable Broadband or Outer Space. In many areas in this county many customers cannot get DSL at all or DSL above 768K. I guess the cable television industry should produce a new TV Program called WE LOVE BEING A MONOPOLY. Today's program is MONOPOLY sucking you dry.
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 10:29AM:
Re: Personally...

said by ropeguru :

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
I like your thoughts. NOT! Maybe you should go to work for these crooked companies. I am sure they would love to have you.
Then when there numbers go down so much between disconnects and non payments for over usage they will FIRE HIS ASS and say we made a mistake.
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dsldude08 @ 2nd Apr 10:31AM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

What they don't realize is that nowadays, most people don't have any extra pocket change. So what they will soon find out is that they are taking a turn for the worst and this business model will not work. It's taking what we have now and going like ten steps backwards if you ask me. Money, money, money...
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anon @ 2nd Apr 12:05PM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

Totally agree - this is bullshit in this day and age where there are so many legit reasons to use that bandwidth.

Total scumbags - here's hoping someone drags there asses into a courtroom.
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dsldude08 @ 2nd Apr 10:33AM:
Re: RE

I agree. If it's going to happen, they need to follow the wireless model for minutes used on cell phones (different tiers, i.e. 100GB, 200GB, 300GB, etc for so much per month). But, look now, they are starting to go with Unlimited. But wait, so, cell phone companies are jumping ahead on voice minutes being unlimited (giving the option), but ISP's and others are going backwards here...doesn't make sense. Money grab.
**Voice only with the wireless example though**
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Mr Matt @ 2nd Apr 10:45AM:
Re: RE

:( The real problem with Internet Access is that the customer cannot predict the number of bytes of data will be downloaded when accessing a webpage. I wonder how top management of the Cable Companies would like it if there was no way for their employees would know how many minutes of usage they would be charged when they place a call on one of the companies cell phones.

It is time for some activist prosecutors to sue a Cable Company for not providing detailed billing for the amount of data downloaded to a customer browser from each IP address and the who is that address. That way customers can really see how much crap is downloaded by DoubleClick when access a website. Junk Data should be handled the same way as junk faxes. Make it illegal. Sorry that will stop internet advertising.
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n2jtx @ 2nd Apr 10:46AM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
Unfortunately, arbitrary caps are are just that. 100GB is good for you and someone else might be happy 10GB meaning you are going to have to pay. Another person might prefer 250GB and wonder how you can justify 100GB. Just picking random numbers out of a hat is not going to please everyone.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

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jadebangle @ 2nd Apr 10:49AM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

I love caps.

Just kidding, but i know this subject riles people up more than any other on this site.

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
why not give us a choice of say 5.00 a month metered 1 dollar per gb or 19.95 a month unlimited?
with metered method i'm sure they would make a lot more money *major scam* the way they like it. metered doesn't suit most of us!
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JSRoman @ 2nd Apr 10:54AM:
Re: RE

Wouldn't the website be responsible for that not the ISP?
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jadebangle @ 2nd Apr 10:55AM:
Re: vote with your money.

said by hayabusa3303 :

Disconnect and tell them to goto hell.
Here is what gonna happen...
a user see his or her bill that are extremely outrageous and won't pay
ISP then disconnect you for refusing to pay
If too many ppl do this, the losses are the ISP for overcharge

You can only get what someone who can afford to pay
You can't get someone to pay what they don't have.
ISP think their are many user who can just pay whatever they wanna charge them whether they have it or not

ISP is crazy to start metering everyone as if it is utility
a very bad idea, not even laughable...

everyone of us know its more of a luxury then a necessity
they believe we can't do without internet and think we live on it that if we don't have it we're gonna go crazy and pay any money they want to blackmail us with this silly pay per gb instead of flat monthly payment like we had for the last 9 or 10 years.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 10:56AM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

I gave up on the internet for now, got onto a light internet plan for browing and emails, and used the left over money for the hockey league and equipment. Why get a fast connection like this if i'm not going to be able to pirate all these blue ray movies, it's going to end up costing more downloading them then buying them.
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jadebangle @ 2nd Apr 11:01AM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

said by Sir Meowmix III :

Blatant money grab. Not everyone likes being turned upside down and shaken for their pocket change.
It won't affect ppl who don't use much but for many that use it a lot well two thing will happen,
either the user will cut pack on internet usage or just don't pay it and do without internet...

The kind of ppl that won't be affected are those who use it to check email only and other little bandwidth usage that could be done on dialup as well like elderly or the disabled

they are looking to get content user to pay up or cough up as much as possible so they can use it to buy their luxury car, a new house or other unnecessary crap like jewelry costing many millions

they think everyone has money to burn like they do..

:(
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TKJunkMail @ 2nd Apr 11:05AM:
Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by Karl Bode :

Charging per gigabyte is more forced migration than natural evolution -- the impetus originates with investors and executives who fear the impact Internet video will have on TV revenues. Imposing such low caps in the age of HD video -- and charging users $1-$5 per gigabyte for bandwidth that costs a carrier pennies -- is a money grab, and it's only made possible by a lack of sustained, viable competition and napping regulators.
The problem with the above claim is that it neglects the fact that Cable TV revenues greatly subsidize internet costs. If the cable companies don't react to video watching migrating to the internet from the TV channels without replacing the lost TV revenues, than the cost to provide internet service rises drastically.

So cable companies have to start charging for the real costs of providing internet access as the subsidizing TV revenues start to dry up. And the method they rightly have chosen is to start charging users by how much bandwidth they consume. The best set of rates and charges to do that will have to be worked out as the users continue to drop Cable TV.

SO it is NOT a money grab, but it is a way to continue to cover the costs of providing infrastructure to millions of users.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

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anon @ 2nd Apr 11:06AM:
smaller isp in canada is growing

i think smaller canada isp is offering unlimed access is growing daily. i think canada more choice than usa. i check canada broadband daily. everyday a new isp is born and no caps .
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rawwhide @ 2nd Apr 11:06AM:
Re: Personally...

Business wouldn't help any. Caps are nothing but a money grab. If these companies wanted metering as they claim, there would be one price per gig with no limits. That is true metered billing. Imposing caps is just to prevent the mass exodus of video users moving over to internet ONLY. Leaving there old business model of 190-300 channels of junk you don't really want to see. In some cases you don't even get that many channels of television to watch.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.

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mattei @ 2nd Apr 11:08AM:
Cogeco does not sell Internet access

Cogeco, for as long as I can remember, has insisted that they offer a "Web service", not Internet access. The AUP/TOS weasel words have been plentiful for years.

Next up, value added "upgrades." You know, things like VPN.
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dsldude08 @ 2nd Apr 11:16AM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Well, that's not the customers fault is it? So why charge the customer more or put more restrictions on them? Maybe they need to change their offerings (prices, products, etc). You adapt to changes, you don't create imaginary dollar amounts and slap them on whatever amount of gigabytes you want. They need to publish EXACTLY how they are coming up with these dollar amounts for overages and for the "maximum". Obviously if there is a maximum amount to be charged, by then they've made well over their amount of money they need to sustain this "cost" associated with bandwidth. Until they show the exact details and math it IS a money grab.
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TKJunkMail @ 2nd Apr 11:21AM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by dsldude08 :

They need to publish EXACTLY how they are coming up with these dollar amounts for overages and for the "maximum". Until they show the exact details and math it IS a money grab.
Sorry Charlie - but companies don't owe their customers a line item breakdown of their costs. If you want high level costs; revenues, & profits then you can examine their SEC filings. They come up with their rate tables; publish those; and see what the customer will or won't buy. They then adjust rates as necessary to maximize profits. Welcome to the capitalist system.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

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morbo @ 2nd Apr 11:25AM:
Re: Personally...

10-100GB caps?? unbelievable.

anything less than 250GB caps that are adjusted upward annual (for usual increase in consumption) is a complete money grab by these corporations.
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en102 @ 2nd Apr 11:33AM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

What about those that are paying for Internet only ?

Internet itself is not _that_ expensive, but I think it has been more the other way. Internet has been subsidising TV.

TV rates have gone up all the time (more crap channels, HD service)
The _only_ thing that has improved on Internet is speed. Personally, I'd take an uncapped 3Mbps DSL-Extreme $20/month deal + basic POTS over $46/month capped 10/1Mbps service from TWC or 10/1Mbps service from AT&T Uverse.

This in general is more of a 'lean' business model, where companies like AT&T/TWC/etc. all expect a specific profit margin or ARPU. To do that, they need to make $X, and its cheaper to bundle. That being said, I would expect better cap deals given when bundled.
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Karl Bode @ 2nd Apr 11:56AM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Everything subsidizes everything else, including ad income, DNS redirection advertising income, VoIP income -- again, arguing that the company isn't profitable under the existing flate-rate pricing model simply isn't accurate...and the idea that we "must" move to metered billing certainly helps TK's stock portfolio, but it's just not true.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 11:59AM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

I love caps.

Just kidding, but i know this subject riles people up more than any other on this site.

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
My grandpa only uses 100 meg a month, and he says above that you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
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TKJunkMail @ 2nd Apr 12:02PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by Karl Bode :

arguing that the company isn't profitable under the existing flate-rate pricing model simply isn't accurate.
But that doesn't change the fact that if more and more people drop the Cable TV portion to go internet only that the costs to provide internet access will have to rise. The only thing open to discussion is how to do that fairly. I propose that billing by bandwidth used is the fairest way. Flat rate unlimited byte plans only benefit the bandwidth hogs - which I agree is the typical BBR user and the type of customer that your editorials are aimed at.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

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Millenniumle @ 2nd Apr 12:03PM:
...

One thing I do like about their metered billing is it has a reasonable bill cap. The user is not in danger of getting a multi-thousand dollar bill like we see with cellular.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 12:04PM:
Goodbye Cogecrap

Hello Techsavvy. On hearing this news I have canceled my Cogecrap connection and made arrangements to switch to Techsavvy where there is no cap on their premium plan (which is around $5 less per month by the way) Given that I have NEVER reached the advertised speeds and the high ping times to what I would consider local networks, this has been a long time coming. Hopefully this will force an exodus of Cogecrap customers to the little guy offering the best deals and superior customer service. Hopefully, Cogecrap will wake up and stop treating their customers like they are all idiots.
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KodiacZiller @ 2nd Apr 12:13PM:
Hmmm

quote:
"While transit may appear cheap, the reality is a network like this takes continual maintenance and upgrades to get the transit to and from you," she says, adding that this is "just a natural evolution of the technology" and "not a money grab."


Transit has been getting cheaper and cheaper, yet metered billing is just now coming into the picture. So, does this mean that the "natural evolution of technology" is actually a devolution of the technology? If companies are being "forced" to charge a 2000% mark-up for bandwidth, how does this equal an "evolution of technology?" When technology evolves it gets cheaper, not the other way around.

Krispy = fail
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anon @ 2nd Apr 12:29PM:
wow, and they need more money

»www.cogeco.ca/files/pdf/press_re···2008.pdf
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Karl Bode @ 2nd Apr 12:33PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

But that doesn't change the fact that if more and more people drop the Cable TV portion to go internet only that the costs to provide internet access will have to rise.
So raise prices when that happens (which won't be for many years yet), assuming VoIP, behavioral ad and other creative revenue builders don't help offset those losses. You don't really make much sense.
The only thing open to discussion is how to do that fairly. I propose that billing by bandwidth used is the fairest way.
Says you, somebody solely interested in fattening your investment portfolio and who, though you'll protest with the utmost fervor (and several hey mods about how your honor is insulted), absolutely couldn't care less about the fate of consumers.
Flat rate unlimited byte plans only benefit the bandwidth hogs
Another distortion, given companies are perfectly profitable under flat rate pricing, and there are plenty of mechanisms (listed above) to help handle the most extreme users, which carriers admit comprise about 1% of their userbase. This move has nothing to do with handling a tiny portion of troublesome users, that's easily accomplished in other ways. It has nothing to do with fairness, or grandmothers and Luddites who use 70MB a month would be paying $2.00 a month for broadband under a truly metered billing model.

The new low cap and overage model is simply more profitable than the flat rate model. It's simple.

If people who are greedy simply stepped up to the plate and admitted they were being greedy, I'd probably have an easier time of it. But when these efforts always have to be dressed up as philanthropic in nature by people who couldn't care less about anything other than money -- I tend to get annoyed.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 12:35PM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

Disabled??? I was not aware that I only needed dialup when i am disabled. What are you talking about?
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mod_wastrel @ 2nd Apr 12:39PM:
I would say...

monkey see, monkey do... but that would be an insult to monkeys.

Just say no.
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psx_defector @ 2nd Apr 12:49PM:
Re: Personally...

said by ropeguru :

Really?? Lets see, 4GB per movie on average gives a family around 25 movies per month not including anything else they might want to download
Streams from Netflix et. al. are NOT 4GB of data. Even in HD.

4GB is what you get after you rip a DVD, with all it's extraneous "extras" that don't contribute to the movie itself. And if the stream contains that data, it's grossly misconfigured.

More than 100GB, even in a "busy household", has a lot of piracy involved. Don't kid yourself.
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Frank @ 2nd Apr 12:49PM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

I love caps.

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
you sound like bill gates when talking about ram

"640K ought to be enough for anybody"

or how about this one from ken olsen, founder and ceo of DEC

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home".

just because YOU cant fathom of a way to legally use up more than 100GB in a month does not mean that this is the case for everybody :p
--
At first I thought everyone on the highway was drunk but then I realized I was driving in Florida ;)

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NakedGord @ 2nd Apr 12:50PM:
Re: The prices of the tiers make this even more of a horror

said by DrunkenClam :

Don't get me wrong though, this is much better then what they did before and just terminate your service if you go over and no questions asked.
Accord to what's been posted in the Cogeco forum that can still happen under these new rules.
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RARPSL @ 2nd Apr 01:32PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by TKJunkMail :

said by Karl Bode :

Charging per gigabyte is more forced migration than natural evolution -- the impetus originates with investors and executives who fear the impact Internet video will have on TV revenues. Imposing such low caps in the age of HD video -- and charging users $1-$5 per gigabyte for bandwidth that costs a carrier pennies -- is a money grab, and it's only made possible by a lack of sustained, viable competition and napping regulators.
The problem with the above claim is that it neglects the fact that Cable TV revenues greatly subsidize internet costs. If the cable companies don't react to video watching migrating to the internet from the TV channels without replacing the lost TV revenues, than the cost to provide internet service rises drastically.
My Cable Company has two prices for Internet. The subsidy from Cable TV is only $5 (ie: If I want Internet-Only I pay $5/month more). Thus your subsidy claim sounds good but has little actual basis.

As to the overage charges, they are out of line with the actual cost Based on the Company's actual charges to the customer. If I pay $50 month (to pull a figure out of the air) for my service and have a 100MB cap, then based on that figure, my cost for overage should be no more than $0.50/GB since the cost of everything else to maintain/service my account has ALREADY been paid out of that $50. Another way of looking at it is what happens if I open 2 accounts and switch from account 1 to account 2 when I reach the cap - The result is that for $100 I get 200GB and use EXACTLY the same resources as my first case. Either scenario shows that the overage charges are inflated.
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AVonGauss @ 2nd Apr 01:52PM:
Re: Personally...

said by hayabusa3303 :

Even Tw business class has caps of the same usage. so how would business class help again?
Time Warner business service does not have a stated cap that I am aware of.
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AVonGauss @ 2nd Apr 01:55PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Perhaps not, but having a bit of documentation to back up your claim that their video product still subsidizes their Internet (HSI) is a fair request. I personally do not believe you are going to be able to find recent documentation to substantiate that claim.
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Lazlow @ 2nd Apr 02:04PM:
ISPs do not pay by the GB

This is what is so silly about the entire cap thing. In no way and on no level do ISPs pay by the GB, they pay by peak Mbps. Virtually all commercial transit bandwidth is bought by the 95th percentile method (just google it), which essentially means they pay a rate based on the peak Mbps during the month. The same goes for the hardware. They have to have enough hardware to handle the peak load(Mbps). Gbs downloaded during off peak hours cost the ISPs (HSI side) absolutely nothing extra. The hardware has to be in place to handle peak times (no extra cost here). The transit links have to be in place to handle the peak times (no extra cost here either). So where are these mysterious extra costs?

The ISPs who are capping have to face the fact that when they increase tier speeds (Mbps), they also have to be able to handle the load.
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The Master @ 2nd Apr 02:11PM:
Re: Not a money grab? Right...

Disabled don't need bandwidth? I'm pretty badly disabled, and I use 3TB+ each month(FIOS). If anything, the disabled have more time to spend at the computer, and use more.

Ed
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chronoss2009 @ 2nd Apr 02:18PM:
welcome to the scam

disabled...screwed
poor( the rest of yuou recessioned people)....screwed

BILL-c61 here it comes and this time there wont be a face book revolution

ever think thats the plan to get everyone off the net and make draconian laws in canada

After all there will be far fewer peopel to goHEY this is wrong.
Fewer = OH see they came round to OUR side a thought.
Net neutrality in canada died the moment we gave control to these AIG NORTH SCAMMERS
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 02:19PM:
Re: Personally...

said by AVonGauss :

said by hayabusa3303 :

Even Tw business class has caps of the same usage. so how would business class help again?
Time Warner business service does not have a stated cap that I am aware of.
Not right now they dont but there will be soon if this cancer keeps growing it will.

In the long run they will have caps, on business class so they can put the screws to them also.
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baineschile @ 2nd Apr 02:39PM:
Re: Personally...

What family watches 25 movies a month!!! Even if netflix streams ran that high (which they dont), that is still a riduculous amount of movies. I dont even think 25 movies come out every month, and if youre watching repeats, might as well invest in a 40$ DVD player.
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baineschile @ 2nd Apr 02:40PM:
Re: Personally...

Because normal internet activities wont ever take the average user above 10 gigs/month. 100gigs is being generous to the sling box/netflix users.
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baineschile @ 2nd Apr 02:42PM:
Re: Personally...

I never said that it shouldnt be looked at and evaluated eventually. But 100gigs/month is plenty for this day and age. I can fathom lots of ways to use it; I myself have a slingbox, play on xbox live a lot, and use the netflix streaming service. I also use iTunes, but not as much as I used to. I work from home 3 days a week and connect to my works VPN, and send a lot of data files over the POP server. I consider myself a moderate to heavy user, and in a HEAVY month of mine, I use about 40-50gigs.

I can fathom downloading all recently released blurays, a few times from any one of the torrent trackers, but that doesnt mean I choose to.
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cpsycho @ 2nd Apr 03:05PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Cable TV in rogers platform does not subsidize internet. Rogers makes approximately $45 dollers in the green off of every extreme user(if that user matches his cap that month if he/she does not they make more.). Its starting to look like the other way around where they are trying to use the internet sales to subsidize TV programming.

I don't know where you get your information but that piece is bunk.
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Mr Matt @ 2nd Apr 03:10PM:
Re: RE

:o The website is responsible for downloading the data sent to you browser. The ISP should be responsible for keeping track of the data downloaded from a website and include a list of all IP addresses that downloaded data to you browser by date and time in Hours, Minutes and Seconds.
I do not think that it is unreasonable for customers to ask for usage information by IP address history, if the ISP wants to charge customers for the amount of data up and downloaded.

Your wireless bill normally includes the telephone number of the called or calling telephone, the number of minutes the connection was active and the source of the call.
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espaeth @ 2nd Apr 03:16PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by Karl Bode :

Another distortion, given companies are perfectly profitable under flat rate pricing, and there are plenty of mechanisms (listed above) to help handle the most extreme users, which carriers admit comprise about 1% of their userbase. This move has nothing to do with handling a tiny portion of troublesome users, that's easily accomplished in other ways. It has nothing to do with fairness, or grandmothers and Luddites who use 70MB a month would be paying $2.00 a month for broadband under a truly metered billing model.
The low-use customers would be paying $2/mo for usage... on top of the access fees. There is a fixed component to the service that is required to just deliver the access before the first bit is ever clocked across the interface, and that cost is the overwhelming majority of your monthly broadband charge.

You like to constantly publish that carrier-level bandwidth is pennies per GB, even though that's not a realistic representation of cost. Yes, you can get to that price by saying 1mbps fully utilized over a 30 day month is 324GB, and at $10/mbps that means your cost per GB is $0.03.... While the math works out here, it's not an accurate model for the environment. The first problem is that bandwidth isn't used uniformly across the month, there is daily peak usage and then periods of low/idle time off hours. The net result is that you never ever see 324GB out of 1mbps of traffic because of the variation between peak/non-peak usage so your per-GB costs are actually higher. The other problem is that you fail to account for the fact that multiple megabit worth of bandwidth must be purchased to meet peak demand even for low usage.. basically high and low usage subscribers have overlapping requirements for demand in evening peak hours. So for a 250GB monthly cap you're not buying 768kbps of bandwidth, you need to have at least x mbps that lines up with the minimum tier of service you are offering, and you need to have sufficient excess capacity on top of that so you can deliver maximum rate during peak to a reasonable number of people.

The problem with flat rate pricing is that increasing utilization drives expansion, and the blocks of expansion are large and expensive. Say I need an Ethernet switch for home, so I go to Best Buy and purchase a $50 8-port switch. Even though that technically has a cost per-port of $6.25, when I need that 9th port I need to spend more than just another $6.25 to add it. It's a similar deal in the DOCSIS world .. to gain capacity you can only add it in 38mbps blocks, either through DOCSIS 3.0 to add multiple downstream channels or through node splits. Node splits require additional fiber ports on the CMTS, which drives the addition of new cards (one-time capital expense), but those cards also require maintenance contracts (recurring expense), plus the cost of trenching the fiber, re-engineering the node / amplifier design, etc. It's not quite like it is on the head-end where you can just work with your carrier to bump your commit up from 500 to 600mbps on a gige link and change no physical infrastructure in the process.

The other assertion you make is that 40GB or 100GB is a number that screws the average consumer. You love to publish articles about how countries like Japan are kicking USA's ass in providing high speed broadband access. So let's take the numbers from Japan:

»www.caida.org/workshops/wide/080···ffic.pdf

In a study conducted of all of the major ISPs in Japan the average traffic utilization was only about 26GB/mo.

So now you're saying that here in the US, where we supposedly have crap broadband compared to Japan, our average utilization numbers are higher?
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TKJunkMail @ 2nd Apr 03:54PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

said by AVonGauss :

Perhaps not, but having a bit of documentation to back up your claim that their video product still subsidizes their Internet (HSI) is a fair request. I personally do not believe you are going to be able to find recent documentation to substantiate that claim.
»www.comcast.com/2007annualreview/index.htm
[att=1]
For example, say they lose half of their TV subscribers and that revenue because they are now getting their TV video thru the internet connection.

The costs for TV video delivery will go down only marginally, if at all(some lower fees to networks can result). The costs to deliver video thru TCP/IP point to point connections thru the internet instead of the multicast method of Cable TV channels will require a large expansion in infrastructure costs.

Revenues go down much more than costs - and the result is that to stay solvent the costs for internet go up.

P.S. less TV viewers means less ad revenue and less revenue from their captive TV networks.
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Skippy25 @ 2nd Apr 04:16PM:
Re: Personally...

Well there you go Frank, Baineschile has spoken and so it is so.

Moderator, you can now lock this thread as the discussion is over.
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AVonGauss @ 2nd Apr 04:19PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Unfortunately, that does not indicate anything is being subsidized - it indicates exactly what the chart says, where the revenue is coming from.
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benc @ 2nd Apr 04:31PM:
Re: Personally...

said by hayabusa3303 :

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
Even Tw business class has caps of the same usage. so how would business class help again?
Oh?

As far as I know there's no such thing as "business class" that also has caps. However, I could be wrong since I not aware of the offerings from every single last company.

I thought the idea was that customers would be faced with these choices:

- Use "Residential class" Internet, which has caps and makes heavy use of video impossible.
- Plus use cable TV to get the video.

OR...

- Don't use cable TV.
- Use "Business class" Internet, which has no caps and costs more.
- Viola! The company gets your money anyway.

Now, faced with those choices I think using the "Business class" without the cable TV is still better, since it means more control over what you see. Plus it means that there aren't restrictions that the "Residential service" has, making it more flexible.

But....I think it's pretty much the money, or trying to raise the ARPU.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 04:37PM:
Re: Personally...

maybe 100gigs is enough for you.
with my netflix streaming service and xbox 360 live account
game demos and online play.
plus normal usage I go over 100gigs every month easily without any piracy.

I'm just glad I'm on cablevision and they won't dare go to metered billing unless verizon fios switches to it. Which isn't expected.

Just because the cap is within the average user range does not mean the charges are justified. It's just a money grab, and they want to crush competators like netflix, etc plain and simple
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Skippy25 @ 2nd Apr 04:38PM:
Re: Cable TV subsidizes cable internet

Then maybe they just need to give up and admit they are nothing more than the dumb pipe they are and start acting accordingly.

Your unfounded "fact" that TV revenues greatly subsidize Internet cost is just that... unfounded and I would be willing to bet 100% wrong.

You are correct, this isn't an outright money grab. They are simply trying to restrict the way people use the Internet and get their video without it being so blatantly obvious because that ultimately effects their revenues.

So again.. they need to just become the dumb pipes they truly are and stop fighting it.
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anon @ 2nd Apr 05:50PM:
...

If it was not a money grab by ISP's they would offer the users who only use their connection for things like checking their email once a day better rates as they barely use any bandwidth at all.

There seems to be an association with someone who uses a lot of bandwidth as being a pirate. The fact is that more and more people are streaming video/music from places like YouTube and news/sports sites everyday. This adds up, especially with the HD streaming kick thats going on currently.

Also, if you ISP's have the need to rate limit customers using certain protocols (ie. bittorrent) which is pretty popular these days, it is likely only a small percentage who are really using the biggest portion of your bandwidth overall. So why punish everyone when only some people are offending? And what about the legitimate uses of bittorrent (or whatever protocol you decide to limit) ?

There is value in having DPI in your network to use it to educate and partner with websites that your customers are hitting to better their experience, its just sad that the people making the decisions are blinded by dollar signs or to nontechnical to realize this.
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swintec @ 2nd Apr 05:56PM:
Re: Personally...

said by psx_defector :

Streams from Netflix et. al. are NOT 4GB of data. Even in HD.
They are pretty darn close at 3 gigs in HD format. Around 2 gigs for standard definition. »Netflix: $.05 to Deliver Movie Stream? .
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 06:09PM:
Re: Personally...

i will take this as a grain of salt dont know how true it is tho. »Re: TWC Business Cable

The source of the post is unknown but could be true.
edit is was posted with the Tw cap deal.
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swintec @ 2nd Apr 06:15PM:
Re: Personally...

said by hayabusa3303 :

The source of the post...
Look up the posters posting history..you better take it with a very large grain of salt.......then get your blood pressure checked. :D
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anon @ 2nd Apr 06:47PM:
they work for US!

we all need to remember that these companies work for us! we are their source of income. if we come together we can stop this. if we wanted to go against time warner for instance we could have everyone call their support centers once a day and complain. eventually they would get sick of the calls or lose thousands of customers. in this economy a customer is worth its weight in gold. so odds are they will change things. we are more powerful then corporations and the government. they need to realize that they are here to serve us and make some money. we shouldn't let them tell us how its going to be. thats not very good customer service. i work in a Wyndham Vacation Resort. if i were to tell every guest that stayed with us that they had to pay $10 to use the pool, $5 to use the gym and $5/towel, i dont think that would go over very well. they would all complain and the policy would be revoked. corporations will find every way they know how to nickle and dime us. if we let them, then they get more of our hard earned money and we get less. most of that $ probably goes into corp executives paychecks anyways. not on actually improving things. i wouldnt mind paying a wireless company a $.25 charge for some bullshit if it actually went into making things better. we are the people and they would be nothing without us. lets remind them of that. im just so sick of corporate america. they already have enough $ for gods sake! just my rant/opinion...
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hayabusa3303 @ 2nd Apr 07:25PM:
Re: Personally...

i agree why i added that in there ;)
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AVonGauss @ 2nd Apr 08:12PM:
Re: Personally...

The business service offering currently having no stated cap comes from TWC themselves in response to the "chatter" the last two days.
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BF69 @ 2nd Apr 10:30PM:
Re: Personally...

said by ropeguru :

said by baineschile :

100gigs and above is reasonsable for a cap. Above that, you are either a pirater, or need the business class.
Really?? Lets see, 4GB per movie on average gives a family around 25 movies per month not including anything else they might want to download.
4 GB? SD is closer to 2 GB and HD is closer to 6 GB. 25 movies in a month at $4-$6 a movie = LOTS OF CASH TO BURN.
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BF69 @ 2nd Apr 10:32PM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

Because normal internet activities wont ever take the average user above 10 gigs/month.
Are you high? I don't do anything outrageous and I use 25-30 GB a month. So does my son. Also so when I get my MLB.tv subscription and I watch the 26-27 Rays games per month and since they are in HD I will use 100 GB in a month, I am not engaging in a "normal" activity? Watching baseball and just ONE game a day at that is unusual?
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prodyn @ 3rd Apr 12:58AM:
Re: smaller isp in canada is growing

said by davidbugs :

i think smaller canada isp is offering unlimed access is growing daily. i think canada more choice than usa. i check canada broadband daily. everyday a new isp is born and no caps .
This is basic economics you are experiencing. Presuming a free-market, the most efficient producer of a product people want will attract the most profit.

With competition, the quality of that product will increase while the price of the product will be reduced.

So if A offers higher price and low caps, while B offers lower price and high or no caps, B will be the better choice.
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-- Prodyn

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prodyn @ 3rd Apr 01:19AM:
Re: they work for US!

Paragraphs are your friend if you want to relay your thoughts.

The large picture is we are all producers and consumers. The "companies" work for us and we also work for "companies". When you purchase something from that company, you are directly consuming that product but indirectly producing employment for that product to be created.

Your rallying cry seems to be "if we come together we can stop this." By stop this I am presuming you mean stop higher prices, lower cap rates, or both. That answer is simple. Create a competing company that offers lower prices and higher or no cap rates.

Competition lowers prices of a product and creates better quality of a product.
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-- Prodyn

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tmc8080 @ 3rd Apr 07:40AM:
cable companies are sabotaging free video demand

eventually, customers will see this for what it is.. a preemptive strike against video downloading. the only answer to such a policy can be to CANCEL THE ACCOUNT. If you don't buy the service on those terms.. then you can pretty much go to a provider who WILL give you what you want. that's the way the capitalist system ideally works... but if you have a monopoly/duopoly provider(s) that do the same thing (money grab) then it's time to create a 3rd carrier and build fiber last mile into the communities to give the people what they want.

If your a broadband provider supplying more than 50+mbit symmetrically (who doesn't cap).. you supply the capability for customers to do: voip, video streaming/downloading and regular browsing & file transfers as a value added proposition.

Consumers should be getting pretty sick and tired of being hit up for rate hikes all the time for video and phone service. The simple fact is that smaller providers seem to have a much easier time at chipping away at the major carrier's market share, so that means they're trying to slam the gates shut by creating aggregate data caps as punishment (first, in NON-COMPETITIVE MARKETS as precedent). Though, the sad fact will end up being, if they don't end up giving customers service on terms they like.. eventually they will walk away compeltely from that ISP... then the whole house of cards comes down due to their protectionist greed.
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psx_defector @ 3rd Apr 11:43AM:
Re: Personally...

But 2GB-3GB != 4GB. There is a difference. Using the example, that makes 50 movies a month that you can watch. Being that Netflix barely has that many movies, that's re-watching the same thing over again.

People keep quoting that 4GB like it's divinely guaranteed or something. And people keep quoting that adding a bandwidth cap is in order to kill the online streaming competition. All this means is that content providers need to be more selective about what they stream and how they stream it. Do you REALLY need a 2Mbps stream of a movie, sucking down 2GB of data? There are codecs that reduce the size considerably, look at the DiVX rips of DVDs clocking in at only 600MB or so. Yeah, it might not be "perfect" but what can you expect from a stream? You would think the content providers would appreciate the added revenue stream, while forcing people who want to get a "good" copy to buy the DVD or Blu-Ray disk.

We got into this metered bandwidth stuff precisely because people were getting stupid with it. I remember when the first hints of Comcast booting people for bandwidth stuff, one guy was complaining because they booted him. Turned out he was slurping down four or five audio streams, 24x7, sucking down almost 500GB a month. And, to add to that, he was not even listening to the stream, he was just recording it and storing it.

South Park had it right, over-logging is going to cause problems. No more mindlessly surfing while watching TV. And limit your pr0n consumption to twice a day, tops.
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anon @ 6th Apr 07:24AM:
Re: ...

My bandwidth usage is all upstream. I'm videographer who shoots HD stock footage. Each 20-second clip that I upload to aggregators like RevoStock is about 200MB in Apple Quicktime Photo JPEG. So my upstream is nearly 24/7 saturated with transferring my clips to the aggregator sites. I certainly don't want to see caps come to DSL or any other system. It would have a bad impact on my profession.
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Reck Havoc @ 7th Apr 02:49PM:
Re: Personally...

said by baineschile :

I never said that it shouldnt be looked at and evaluated eventually. But 100gigs/month is plenty for this day and age. I can fathom lots of ways to use it; I myself have a slingbox, play on xbox live a lot, and use the netflix streaming service. I also use iTunes, but not as much as I used to. I work from home 3 days a week and connect to my works VPN, and send a lot of data files over the POP server. I consider myself a moderate to heavy user, and in a HEAVY month of mine, I use about 40-50gigs.

I can fathom downloading all recently released blurays, a few times from any one of the torrent trackers, but that doesnt mean I choose to.
Sorry.. 40-50 gigs a month IS NOT a heavy user.
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anon @ 7th Apr 04:01PM:
Re: Personally...

I have an Xbox360 with a Live Account and Netflix on it, a PC with a Steam account that I have bought all my games through (up to 36 games total), catch up on my shows online through the hosting channels website (in HD), I also have a couple people in my house playing online video games pretty much all the time, ontop of that we are constantly streaming music from a couple different online radio stations. How much bandwidth do I use? No idea but I can bet it's more than 40GB. I think it would be safe to say I use well over 100GB because the internet is being utilized all the time. Now I can't imagine any the other house like mine in my neighborhood isn't using the same amount as me or close to it. We are a society that has grown accustomed to having everything at the click of a button and all of sudden people decided to take that away. Now we will have to check to make sure before we click that link or watch that video, or buy another video game/movie.

psx_defector and baineschile, your messages couldn't be anymore of a sale pitch towards tiered bandwidth if you tried. Yes, there are codecs out there but we're streaming the material not creating the DivX files. So you're pointing your argument to the wrong person, in an essence you are blaming the providers of the material. You are blaming them for hogging all the bandwidth. You're blaming Netflix, Youtube, Microsoft, Steam, iTunes(where you can get more than just music), Online Radio feeds, etc for using all the precious low-cost bandwidth. Boy if that isn't hindering innovation I don't know what is. I guess we're just a bunch of bandwidith hogging pirates.
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PeteC2 @ 8th Apr 08:18AM:
Re: Personally...

It's an old story here...and as always, the "truth" is in the middle.

Any usage number that one might quote will be too little, too much, or "just right"...based on the individual! Nothing new there, right?

I do not intrinsically have an issue with some kind of sliding scale based on usage, as long as those very light users pay much less than they pay now..."average" users pay about the same, and those "heavy" bandwidth users, pay a reasonable amount more. The issue, which IMHO is totally fair based on the indutry's track record, is "Will this be done in a non-rapacious way?" Frankly, if the answer is yes, then I would have no problem. Unfortunately, that has not been the paradigm that these companies have operated by...

Now, I am not so sympathetic with those who just download tons of stuff constantly, not even ever using or viewing but a fraction of what they download, because in some cases, it is the acquisition of content in and of itself that is their real "goal"! I think that there is a reasonable placement point for caps in a properly tiered system. For example: What is wrong with a price point with say a 100gb cap, and the next "level" at 250gb (and so on)?

I think that a legitimate problem is that some "average" users are paying too much, while some very "heavy" users are paying too little. It does not bother me that someone may want to download tons of content...not at all! But, I do think that they should be carrying a correspondingly larger part of the voerall cost.
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Deeds, not words

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baineschile @ 8th Apr 02:55PM:
Re: Personally...

Well said.
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