Canadian Consumer Groups Slam CRTC - Cite factual incompetence in Bell Canada throttling issue...
Links: home · search · speed test · login · more ·
Canadian Consumer Groups Slam CRTC
Cite factual incompetence in Bell Canada throttling issue...
(old news - 12:06PM Friday May 22 2009)
tags: dsl · competition · business · alternatives · Op/Ed · world · Bell Sympatico · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Tipped by tmpchaos
Last year, Bell Canada started throttling wholesale customers without telling them, ensuring that smaller ISPs couldn't offer an un-throttled connection to consumers that was better than Bell's throttled Sympatico service. As their back up plan against competitors in case regulators stopped them, Bell Canada started devising a usage-based billing (UBB) system smaller Canadian carriers worry could drive them out of business. Canadian regulatory authority the CRTC, staffed with former incumbent carrier executives, so far hasn't lifted a finger to come to the aid of independent carriers. The CRTC's inaction is allowing Bell to begin charging (usage-based-billing) UBB fees on wholesalers starting May 31. CRTC employees like vice-chairman Leonard Katz, who spent 17 years working for Rogers and 11 for Bell, aren't concerned...for some strange reason. The latest attempt by independent ISPs to get some attention from the Canadian government comes in the form of a new joint filing from a number of Canadian consumer advocacy organizations, small ISPs, and content companies who say they've been negatively impacted by Bell's throttling practices. In the filing and cover letter (pdf), the coalition fires a broadside at the CRTC's understanding of the issues: What is entirely unfair and unacceptable, however, is the fact that the Commission rendered Decision 2008‐108 without the benefit of a comprehensive understanding of the factual, legal and policy issues at play. In particular, if the Commission did not believe that it had an adequate evidentiary record or did not have a full understanding of the factual and legal issues raised by Bell’s throttling of wholesale GAS services... Rocky Gaudrault, CEO of independent Canadian DSL provider TekSavvy (who we profiled in 2007 for their family-run approach to broadband, and their strange inclination toward actually caring about customer service), started a discussion about the latest filing in our TekSavvy forum. Gaudrault and others chime in on the latest ruling in a CBC report ironically posted to the Sympatico main portal homepage, saying Bell Canada still hasn't proved that throttling and UBB were a necessary alternative to capacity upgrades. Canadian regulators seem fairly intent on mirroring the regulatory policies of their neighbors to the south, which resulted in a lack of competition. Namely, a revolving door between incumbent executives/lobbyists and regulators, a strange difficulty in digesting any data or statistics that challenge incumbent positions, and a continued distaste for small business operators who have the potential to improve the competitive landscape.
Related:- Indie Canadian ISPs Fight Back
- Bell Outlines Plan To Cap Wholesalers
- Canadian ISPs (Almost) Come Clean On Throttling
- Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling
- Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- Canadians Take Heed Of Harvard Broadband Study
- CRTC Blocks Canada's WIND Wireless Network
|
Links: New Topic
Forums »
cpsycho @ 22nd May 11:52AM:
Is the war winable?
We have lost several battles so far and the hopes of winning the war seen to get further and further away. But with companies like these, that war just might be winable.
We have a huge problem ahead just sitting inside the Neo-Cons sitting in office. Bell is before the government and who knows who is in bed with who there. Bell will probably get their way with the UBB, then we know the who system is corrupt from the bottom to the top.
This is about money... Stake holders and monopolies. Lets see how many government officials are on the pay role of bell (eg. stocks or members of the board).
I would really like to see something come of this, I really would. But if the CRTC says something now, Bell is porbably gonna side step the CRTC again and go straight to the government again.
reply
insomx @ 22nd May 12:18PM:
Bell is growing way too large.
I know this is a tad off topic, but it is all to do with Bell's business practices.
They keep driving the small ones out of business, and keep buying the one's they can't. For example, Virgin Mobile Canada. Excellent company in everyway ...Bell just bought them (because they can't compete with them). In the East here, Bell bought Aliant (local telecom provider). Now Aliant's cell phones are through Bell, and their internet and phone will soon be assimilated into Bell.
This means in east canada we have Bell and Rogers. And that's it. Don't count Telus..they are in bed with Bell. All other cell providers are owned by either Bell or Rogers. Tv service..only Bell and Rogers. Internet...only Bell and Rogers. This is crazy!
reply
st7860 @ 22nd May 12:25PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
what is almost never mentioned is that Teksavvy basically buys wholesale ADSL from Bell and adds on their own stuff (some backhaul, email/web service, authentication, etc).
for almost 10 years, any company in Canada has the right to rent bare copper lines from the ILEC(bell, telus, etc) and colocate their own dslams into central offices and thus avoid any throtting. but most companies choose to instead buy wholesale adsl from the ILEC, which is obviously subject to throttling.
(obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on)
reply
mlerner @ 22nd May 12:32PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
(obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on)
That's the problem, more than half of customers can only get a connection through a remote! Putting in DSLAMs in CO's is NOT going to provide a complete solution. Further, now Bell is trying to get rid of co-location in the CO!
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 12:34PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
what is almost never mentioned is that Teksavvy basically buys wholesale ADSL from Bell and adds on their own stuff (some backhaul, email/web service, authentication, etc).
for almost 10 years, any company in Canada has the right to rent bare copper lines from the ILEC(bell, telus, etc) and colocate their own dslams into central offices and thus avoid any throtting. but most companies choose to instead buy wholesale adsl from the ILEC, which is obviously subject to throttling.
(obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on)
What is almost never mentioned as well is that Bell built its network, thus the company itself with huge subsidies from the Canadian government ! And where did the govermnet get the money from ? FROM US, THE CONSUMERS. So, if you wonder why the samall ISPs didn't build their own network from scratch, it's because they didn't get any subsidies from the government to do so and so obviously they went with the wholesale forced offer from Bell.
Adi
reply
st7860 @ 22nd May 12:39PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
nobody is forced to buy wholesale.
for ten years anyone has had the right to locate their own equipment in a central office and obviously avoid throttling.
of course if you rent wholesale(white label) services from someone you are subject to disruptions and conditions.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 12:42PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
nobody is forced to buy wholesale.
for ten years anyone has had the right to locate their own equipment in a central office and obviously avoid throttling.
of course if you rent wholesale(white label) services from someone you are subject to disruptions and conditions.
Ya ok and at what prices ?! Oh, right, at the prices that Bell dictates !! Prices that are NOT controlled by the government in any way whatsoever but rather are dictated by whoever owns the collocation office.. oh wait, that's BELL ! gee how did you miss that part ??! 2 posts already on this topic with both of them mentioning this amazing opportunity that all those small ISPs had for 10 years, yet you forget to mention that in fact it's NOT AN OPPORTUNITY AT ALL.
Adi
reply
mlerner @ 22nd May 12:45PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
of course if you rent wholesale(white label) services from someone you are subject to disruptions and conditions.
Of course if you researched a bit, you'd see that it's actually Government mandated wholesale with provisions that the interconnects are bought on a commit basis. There is no justification for Bell to implement throttling on these lines. The tariff is NOT supposed to be white label wholesale! After all, these ISPs are ONLY buying internal transit NOT external.
reply
st7860 @ 22nd May 12:48PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
it is an opportunity, as bare copper lines for ADSL purposes have been available in Canada for 10 years, but teksavvy choses to be cheap and instead rent white label ADSL, and is obviously subject to throttling.
reply
Gman @ 22nd May 12:49PM:
So...
As much as it pains me to say it, the CRTC is never going to rule in favor of the smaller ISPs. I work at one, and nearly everyone has come to accept the inevitability of UBB and to deal with the throttling issue. The only thing that sucks now is Bell can offer faster speeds while keeping resellers at 5Mb. This is going to effectively put many business OUT of business.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 12:51PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
it is an opportunity, as bare copper lines for ADSL purposes have been available in Canada for 10 years, but teksavvy choses to be cheap and instead rent white label ADSL, and is obviously subject to throttling.
I don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. Which part of "BELL OWNS THE COLLOCATION OFFICES AND COPPER LINES." do you not understand ?! Bell charges what THEY want and can outright deny you access to the collocation office if you are a competitor. There, is this more clear now ?
Adi
reply
sbrook @ 22nd May 12:52PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
This is NOT white label service ... The term wholesale is in fact a misnomer. The 3rd party ISPs are buying a service to provide a DSL connection from consumer to the ISP's gateway. Called "Gateway Access Service" or GAS, it could be used for any number of purposes, such as a company connecting to its intranet by telecommuters at home, not just for the third party ISPs providing internet service.
Of course, there are obviously conditions to be imposed, but none of these should be based on the content or amount of data passed through the pipes up to the contracted amount of the backhaul. The incumbent has NO right to touch the contents of the data on the backhaul.
Yes, there is the right to colocate equipment, using the ILEC's last mile services (the wire), and provide your own backhaul, but GAS was a means to provide last mile and backhaul in one package. After all, it's not economic to colo equipment in all of the COs and remotes in the areas they operate in.
reply
st7860 @ 22nd May 12:54PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
it IS white label service and thats why Bell is able to throttle it. companies can choose to rent bare parts like copper lines and place their OWN equipment into a central office then in that situation, bell obviously can't throttle them.
reply
sbrook @ 22nd May 12:55PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Go read what GAS actually IS! Not what you THINK it is!
reply
st7860 @ 22nd May 12:57PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
»tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···make-you
"Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with WHOLESALE service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers
Read more: »tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···tZR3Qu&B
"
and for the people who didn't already know - the reason why bell can throttle ADSL is because most companies choose to rent wholesale services from bell and just stick their own name on it thats why in some situations in ontario(you can't do this in bc or alberta) with various ADSL companies you can trade passwords and USERids and it usually works)
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 12:59PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
it IS white label service and thats why Bell is able to throttle it. companies can choose to rent bare parts like copper lines and place their OWN equipment into a central office then in that situation, bell obviously can't throttle them.
Again with the central office BS... read my other replyes while your're at it. But what about remotes ? My whole neighbourhood was built in 2003 and guess what : it's all linked through a remote. Does Bell allow access to competitors on remotes ? NO.
Adi
reply
mlerner @ 22nd May 01:04PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
and for the people who didn't already know - the reason why bell can throttle ADSL is because most companies choose to rent wholesale services from bell and just stick their own name on it thats why in some situations in ontario(you can't do this in bc or alberta) with various ADSL companies you can trade passwords and USERids and it usually works)
Incorrect, the reason that works in Ontario is because all the traffic and authentication requests go through Bell's network before hitting the provider and Bell's transit runs through the same network. The realm determines which network the traffic goes.
Telus on the other hand terminates retail and wholesale traffic on different segments on the network and they don't use PPPoE for authentication.
reply
derekm @ 22nd May 01:14PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
(obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on)
So most of the DSL infrastructure?
reply
51019512 @ 22nd May 01:17PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
st7860 but sit on the CRTC. Would explain his replies and not understanding.
reply
derekm @ 22nd May 01:22PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Are you Mirko Bibic in disguise?
Your pronounced misunderstanding of the situation in Canada, and your stubbornness in propagating it, belies your affiliation with Bell.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 01:24PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Don't feed the "buy your own gear" troll.
He's from the states he know SFA about the Canadian Telecom situation...
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
AkFubar @ 22nd May 01:30PM:
Great Article!!
Well written with the issues easily understood by most Canadian consumers. Now if we could only get this in front of most Canadian consumers.
--
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 02:36PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Bell doesn't own the airspace so why don't ISPs use that? Ever hear of MOTO Canopy? It works great! ISPs in Canada use it. It's one of the fine products that MOTO makes for their Wireless ISP customers.
These 3rd party ISPs just want to ride on someone else's network without doing anything instead of spending this money they should be out creating their own network if they wanted to stay in business.
Also things change. It's time that these companies get off their asses and start changing as well. Those 3rd Party ISPs are gonna be done for because they didn't build out and who do they have to blame? Their owners and customers like you who claim that they shouldn't have to because the CRTC protects them.
Wake up and smell the coffee you don't get shit for free anymore!
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 02:38PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
So tell your ISP to get off their ass and spend their money building out their own network and you wouldn't have a problem getting their services.
And you know what the best part of that would be? YOU DONT HAVE TO USE BELL! OMG! What an idea!
reply
PolarBear @ 22nd May 02:40PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by AkFubar :
Now if we could only get this in front of most Canadian consumers.
Copy, paste, email, send. Repeat.as necessary.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 02:43PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Why not buy your own gear? you by pass Bell and all their business practices. You don't have to rely on them or their techs or anything else for that matter. especially the RT issue and the colos. You don't need their last mile copper to hit the customer
You people in Canada just want your cake and eat it too.
The law is too old and needs to be corrected. These ISPs had a chance to build out a network and didn't. Now they can suffer from it, the same way the ISPs in the USA are in hot water, they didn't build out now they close. Not the ILEC's problem. It's ISP's fault. And actually, VZ was stupid for allowing DSLX to resell their Fiber...i would have told them to go kiss my ass because they didn't build a network, instead they wish to leach just like all the other ISPs out here and in Canada.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 02:44PM:
Re: So...
And it's Bell's problem that you'll lose your job? No! It's your boss's problem. Tell them to start building out a network and you won't have a problem.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 02:52PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
Bell doesn't own the airspace so why don't ISPs use that? Ever hear of MOTO Canopy? It works great! ISPs in Canada use it. It's one of the fine products that MOTO makes for their Wireless ISP customers.
These 3rd party ISPs just want to ride on someone else's network without doing anything instead of spending this money they should be out creating their own network if they wanted to stay in business.
Also things change. It's time that these companies get off their asses and start changing as well. Those 3rd Party ISPs are gonna be done for because they didn't build out and who do they have to blame? Their owners and customers like you who claim that they shouldn't have to because the CRTC protects them.
Wake up and smell the coffee you don't get shit for free anymore!
The "airspace" as you call it is ALL used up. Your little moto Canopy requires licensed space. Will the government give out subsidies to the little ISPs in order for them to acquire the new spectrum (IF there is any available) like they did for Bell to build their copper network ? HELL NO!
Nice try with the FUD spreading but it doesn't work unless the government treats the small ISPs like they treated Bell. Those little ISPs are not lazy, they just don't have the resources to start building their own netowkr because the government isn't giving them $$ like they gave Bell.
Or are you just using a double standard here saying it was ok for Bell to get free $$ and build their monopoly but it's not ok for the small ISPs ? I'm sure a person like you with such high integrity will not think that...... ahem
Adi
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 02:53PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Why? It's not taking a choice away from the customer/consumers. It's taking away the 3rd party ISPs from leaching. They have had plenty of time to build out a network and get it going. But NOPE they didn't want to because they didn't have to. They got a free ride. Well all things come to an end, and this one is about ready to. Good bye 3rd party ISPs and welcome to Bell, your choice due to your ISP was too lazy to build a network. Which means, they don't care about you, they just wanted to collect your hard earned $$$$.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 02:59PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
So tell your ISP to get off their ass and spend their money building out their own network and you wouldn't have a problem getting their services.
And you know what the best part of that would be? YOU DONT HAVE TO USE BELL! OMG! What an idea!
Really, and will the govmernment give FREE $$$ to my ISP so that he can spend and build their own network like they gave Bell ?
I ask, cause i see you're so smart and seem to have the obvious answer that has eluded us all... oh wait..
Adi
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:06PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Moto canopy uses 2.4GHz the same frequency that your home router uses. You can't tell me that it requires a licenses.
You are rooting for your lame ass ISP because they're too cheap to build out their own network.
You need to go read the WISP board here and see how many people are from Canada and run a WISP with out a problem. You can also see that I asked a question the last time this was brought up and asked if a WISP needed licenses in Canada before they could build. The answer is NO!
This product: »www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···Networks uses the same technology your router uses. It also is designed to avoid any interference and only connects back to its base station.
Maybe you should learn how things work before running your mouth when you don't know anything about a product.
By the way, companies like TekSavvy have the money to start reselling Bell Landline? They have the money they can build out a wireless network. If they have the funds to sit and battle this out, they have the money to build a network.
Where does all their profit go? back into the company to expand DSL? Hardly. It goes to their pocket. They should start spending some of that money on their network and building it out and they won't have to rely on Bell..... What happens when Bell goes to the CRTC and tells them that they don't want anyone reselling their landline service? what happens then?
By the way ISPs had how many years? 10? to build out their own network? It's 10years over due that they did.
reply
sbrook @ 22nd May 03:08PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
It requires a certain level of business to be able to expand.
It's not as if the 3rd party ISPs aren't paying their fair share of the costs of the last mile and colo, or GAS services. After all they're paying the tariffed prices that Bell set for these services when requested to do so by the CRTC. If the price isn't high enough, justify a price increase to the CRTC and request it! After all, this is simply another business to Bell.
The only thing they must not be allowed to do (and that's the reason for making it a regulated service) is to set a price that attempts to make up for loss of internet business to themselves (vis to favour themselves).
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:11PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Maybe they should take their profit and expand.
Also Adi, your ISP wouldn't have a problem if he would take his profit and expand using that like every other business. You know thats how businesses work. You don't keep the profit and pay yourself! You expand and offer better products to more customers.
After all you should know that. Oh wait. you don't seem to get that do you?
Also if it wasn't for Bell you wouldn't have a phone system and DSL like you do now.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:14PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
Why not buy your own gear? you by pass Bell and all their business practices. You don't have to rely on them or their techs or anything else for that matter. especially the RT issue and the colos. You don't need their last mile copper to hit the customer
You people in Canada just want your cake and eat it too.
The law is too old and needs to be corrected. These ISPs had a chance to build out a network and didn't. Now they can suffer from it, the same way the ISPs in the USA are in hot water, they didn't build out now they close. Not the ILEC's problem. It's ISP's fault. And actually, VZ was stupid for allowing DSLX to resell their Fiber...i would have told them to go kiss my ass because they didn't build a network, instead they wish to leach just like all the other ISPs out here and in Canada.
Again, spoken with 100% ignorance on the subject. Bell built their network with heavy subsidy from the Canadian government. You can bet you ass the small ISPs would have built their network by now if they had that free subsidy $$$ available to them just like Bell had.
Adi
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:18PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
Why? It's not taking a choice away from the customer/consumers. It's taking away the 3rd party ISPs from leaching. They have had plenty of time to build out a network and get it going. But NOPE they didn't want to because they didn't have to. They got a free ride. Well all things come to an end, and this one is about ready to. Good bye 3rd party ISPs and welcome to Bell, your choice due to your ISP was too lazy to build a network. Which means, they don't care about you, they just wanted to collect your hard earned $$$$.
Wow, 3rd party ISPs being lazy ?! LOL they're the ones who offer MORE then Bell does.
They :
- offer local supprt, don't ship support to India
- don't throttle like Bell does
- offers lower prices compared to Bell
- actually DELIVER faster speeds due to better tier 1 peering compared to Bell
They only reason they didn't built their network yet is for a lack of funding from the government. See, Bell built their network with government $$ yet the same government won't give out those subsidies to the small ISPs now.
Nice attempt to spew BS but on this board, you're a little outnumbered.
Adi
reply
anon @ 22nd May 03:18PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
Snickerdo @ 22nd May 03:19PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
But NOPE they didn't want to because they didn't have to. They got a free ride.
How is this a free ride? The third-party ISP pays for and provides the transit to the Internet - Not Bell, provides the servers - Not Bell, the customer support - Not Bell, provides the IP assignment block - Not Bell, etc etc. The only thing that Bell provides is the physical copper from the CP to the CO/Remote/RSLAM, and an ATM cloud to the ISP POP for which the ISP pays an arm and a leg for. Even the authentication servers are provided by the ISP, Bell merely merely channels PPPoE authentication requests for a third-party from the Redback to the ISPs own authentication servers on the other side of the cloud.
Really, the absolute ignorance that is up and down these posts sickens me. People have not a bloody freaking clue of how any of this works but are running their mouths off like they know. What is most pathetic of all is that these people without a clue who are running their mouths off are from South of the Border and probably couldn't even find Canada on a map, let alone have any idea how our regulatory framework works up here or what GAS is and how it works. But yeah, keep it up, ignorance is always good for a laugh at your expense.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
cpsycho @ 22nd May 03:20PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Edit: Reply to hottboiinnc
You really don't get it do you. Its the peoples network not just bells. We gave them money to build it out. So its "our" rules that dictate what bell should and should not do. But we have a problem with corrupt conservatives selling off "our" infrastructure, "our" stuff to private corporations that they seem to sit on the board with. But your an American and dont understand our society up here. Take your "buy your own equipment" phase and head down to where you belong with it.
Do you understand now?
We are a socialist democracy up in canada, not a capitalistic democracy like in the states.
said by hottboiinnc :
You people in Canada just want your cake and eat it too.
It is our cake and we should be allowed to eat it We just have to make sure "our" corrupt politicians make sure we get it.
reply
anon @ 22nd May 03:20PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:22PM:
Re: Great Article!!
I'm not out numbered.
And yes they are lazy. They don't build out.
That's the key. If you want your cake you can't eat it too. You must spend spend spend.
I for one would like to know why company's like Rocky's did not build out. Why don't they spend their profits building out a network instead of spending that money and effort in fighting this with Bell?
Can you answer that? No. Can you answer why i said they're lazy? Yes, because they don't spend any of their profit bettering themselves. Instead they want the thing given to them on a silver platter which is over with.
Bell got the help back when phones came out. They didn't get in the last 10years when the Internet started to come around.
Look at Rogers, they build their network. Why can't Rocky? Why can't anyone else? Instead they prefer to leach off someone else and just reap the rewards of the profit and watch it build up like any other lazy business owner would.
They don't care about their customers and what they want. instead they want what betters their checking account, which is to leach off Bell and let them pay for the network while they sit back and bitch at Bell when something doesn't go their way or doesn't go fast enough for them.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:24PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
No you did not give the money to Bell.
I don't see that Rocky gave them money to build. I don't see anyone else did either. The Gov't help build the telephone network. NOT the Internet network which is at question. If you don't like the way that it's being run well guess what? Build it yourself or do without. That's the way things work.
And in the real world you don't get your cake and eat it too. It just doesn't work that way. But i must live in the real world unlike you and Adi who think it is all cake and ice cream for everyone regardless of what is the truth.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:27PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
Maybe they should take their profit and expand.
Also Adi, your ISP wouldn't have a problem if he would take his profit and expand using that like every other business. You know thats how businesses work. You don't keep the profit and pay yourself! You expand and offer better products to more customers.
After all you should know that. Oh wait. you don't seem to get that do you?
Also if it wasn't for Bell you wouldn't have a phone system and DSL like you do now.
Really now, and you, all knowledgeable one, must know for sure how much profit these small ISPs make. WOW, never thought you had so much industry insight. With pple like you leading the way, we would't even need a government..
Do you even listen to yourself ?! You actually thinks these small ISPs LIKE Bell ?! Do you even know how much Bell charges them for a GAS line ?! It's not 5$, it's not 10$, it's about 90% of the price they charge for a monthly DSL subscription and yet you think they make enough $$ in profit to be able to invest in a network expansion like Bell did WITH the government/our $$ ?
Uhuh..
Adi
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:29PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Sorry. I know where Canada is. It's north of me where all the crying ass babies live.
Bell pays to maintain that network. They actually own the network now. Nothing is owned by you or the gov't. Bell is a private company. Wake up and smell it.
They don't care about you. They care about what they make just like Rocky and every other ISP does. But instead Bell wants to kick them off because they're tired of supporting their business. Which smart people would actually done a long ass time ago.
If those ISPs wants to compete and offer service, well they need to start bettering themselves and start spending some of that profit they're making. And you can't tell me they're not making anything either because thats a crock of bull shit and we all know that. Because if they didn't they wouldn't be in business today. These ISPs have had time to build out a network and they should have. They should have looked into the future and said "yah we need to change, we need to get away from the copper" Well guess what. What happens when copper is replaced and the ISPs can't use it? OPPS! Sorry they're out of luck unless they do what? Yep! that's right, build out their own network.
Sorry It's time of the ISPs to close if they can't compete.
reply
Snickerdo @ 22nd May 03:31PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
They didn't get in the last 10years when the Internet started to come around.
Your ignorance is stunning, even for someone from Ohio.
Bell receives money and grants for network upgrades/deployment on a regular basis. The whole reason they do is because they're the ILEC and their own upgrades more or less mean upgrades for everyone else due to tarrifed GAS service.
But yeah, keep it coming. The hole only gets deeper with each post.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:32PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
TekSavvy must like them to some point? I mean why else would Rocky be reselling Bell Landline services? He after all owns the company. If he didn't like them he would start to refuse to do business with them. Has he ever heard of VoIP. Must not have.
Has he ever heard of build out Wirelessly and cover his customers that way little by little? Nope! instead he sinks his money into fighting bell and doing what? still goes to them to buy wholesale landline services! WTF!
And actually it's common business sense. Look at what happened down here. The same thing. The ISPs didn't make shit. The Telco's went to the Feds and go them kicked off the network. If they didn't have their own network what happened? they closed. That's the way it should have been.
These companies knew that this was coming sooner or later. They just decided not to do anything about it. Just like they did here.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 03:34PM:
Re: Great Article!!
No, it doesn't get deeper with each post, You just decide to ignore the facts that these ISPs are gonna kiss the dirt by the end of the summer.
That's the facts. These ISPs have had over a year to prepare to go out of business, pay the fees, or build out. How's problem is that?
It's not Bells or the CRTC's fault. It's the ISPs fault.
They shouldn't be so damn stupid and should have been building out or selling their network instead of trying to compete with Bell more by becoming a telephone company and paying them even more. That's their own stupid fault. Not mine.
reply
scavio @ 22nd May 03:34PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Yes, because these small businesses have enough money to build out their own network to compete with an incumbent network the government helped pay for. If Bell paid for the network themselves I could see your point, but of course they did not.
You keep spouting on and on about this, but I see you recently posted asking about a way to get small business grants. I guess everyone should be spending their own money to build out a business except for you?
reply
anon @ 22nd May 03:36PM:
Ugh
The problem is most people have no understanding of how their internet works, and I'd say the vast majority of people probably don't even know that there are independent ISPs. Bell's dirty tricks aside, they are a terrible terrible company to do business with. Ask any Canadian about their experience with Bell (or Rogers) and they'll give you a horror story. How do these companies stay in business? Well, because of rulings like this and the ignorance of the general public.
reply
cpsycho @ 22nd May 03:37PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Who gave the government money to give to bell?
We as the people did. That includes the build out of the last mile copper that bell controls which is a part of the money we gave them, the copper plants as well. This is the wiring the internet runs on.
You still dont understand our ways do you.
So in it is our cake not bells. We the people make the rules not bell. If they want to do business in Canada they follow "our" rules, not try and make their own.
Really before spouting off your mouth read up on Canadian history, laws and society. Again you dont understand our ways.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:38PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
No you did not give the money to Bell.
I don't see that Rocky gave them money to build. I don't see anyone else did either. The Gov't help build the telephone network. NOT the Internet network which is at question. If you don't like the way that it's being run well guess what? Build it yourself or do without. That's the way things work.
And in the real world you don't get your cake and eat it too. It just doesn't work that way. But i must live in the real world unlike you and Adi who think it is all cake and ice cream for everyone regardless of what is the truth.
Yes we did give $$ to Bell and that's the whole point. That copper network that Bell built with our money is exactly what is at the heart of this situation.
Let's talk about the situation in the good old US of A : did the phone companies not receive any subsidies to build their networks ? Of course they did but unfortunately the heavy corparate lobbying has not only killed competition from third party ISPs but has also rebuilt Ma Bell from scratch to the point where it's back up the wonderful days of price gouging from the past.
I don't know about you, but i rather have more then 1 choice when it comes to my internet or anything else for that matter.
Adi
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:45PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :Moto canopy uses 2.4GHz the same frequency that your home router uses. You can't tell me that it requires a licenses.
You are rooting for your lame ass ISP because they're too cheap to build out their own network.
You need to go read the WISP board here and see how many people are from Canada and run a WISP with out a problem. You can also see that I asked a question the last time this was brought up and asked if a WISP needed licenses in Canada before they could build. The answer is NO!
This product: »
www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···Networks uses the same technology your router uses. It also is designed to avoid any interference and only connects back to its base station.
Maybe you should learn how things work before running your mouth when you don't know anything about a product.
By the way, companies like TekSavvy have the money to start reselling Bell Landline? They have the money they can build out a wireless network. If they have the funds to sit and battle this out, they have the money to build a network.
Where does all their profit go? back into the company to expand DSL? Hardly. It goes to their pocket. They should start spending some of that money on their network and building it out and they won't have to rely on Bell..... What happens when Bell goes to the CRTC and tells them that they don't want anyone reselling their landline service? what happens then?
By the way ISPs had how many years? 10? to build out their own network? It's 10years over due that they did.
Are you out of your mind ? Have you seen how busy the 2.4Ghz specturm is in a city ? There's no way a WISP can work in such conditions. Ya, it will work in remotely populated areas, but not in cities.
Moto Canopy ALSO offer LICENCED spectrum devices so my previous point still stands :
»www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···rm_US-EN
You should be the one to look up a product before spewing any wild acusations when you have no idea what you're talking about.
And again, TekSavvy doesn't make enough $$ to deploy their own fiber network with no govermnet subsidies and neither did Bell.
Adi
reply
cpsycho @ 22nd May 03:49PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Wake up? Really....
We gave them money with rules and stipulations. Its bells fault they took it from us. Now they dont like our rules and wanna change them. To bad for them.
Bell is the sleez of the ILEC world. They try and pay, lobby and corrupt our politicians to get what they want.
Its just to bad some of us Canadians were watching and will do our best to stop them.
Next on the list for bell would be an anti-trust lawsuit filed by the people of Canada if they wanna continue to pull this crap. No Company in the world is bigger then the populace who supports those companies and governments.
So please please keep the fud coming your looking more unintelligent with every post you make.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:51PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
No you did not give the money to Bell.
What !? And what exactly were those goverment subsidies ?!
Adi
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 03:53PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Thanks for backing me up on this.
Adi
reply
mlerner @ 22nd May 03:59PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
TekSavvy must like them to some point? I mean why else would Rocky be reselling Bell Landline services? He after all owns the company. If he didn't like them he would start to refuse to do business with them. Has he ever heard of VoIP. Must not have.
The landline service they're reselling is simply an added benefit. They're not intending to make money off of it, they only charge what Bell charges them and it's a huge benefit to boost their business because then new customers can see how great the support is and it may persuade them to get DSL service from TekSavvy. The opposite is true as well, if you have DSL from TekSavvy then you may want to get phone service from them as well.
reply
adisor19 @ 22nd May 04:04PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
TekSavvy must like them to some point? I mean why else would Rocky be reselling Bell Landline services? He after all owns the company. If he didn't like them he would start to refuse to do business with them.
He has no other choice because Bell is a, surprise surprise : MONOPOLY.
said by hottboiinnc :
Has he ever heard of build out Wirelessly and cover his customers that way little by little? Nope! instead he sinks his money into fighting bell and doing what? still goes to them to buy wholesale landline services! WTF!
Wireless is not a solution in a city landscape as the 2.4Ghz band is too polluted. Also, Bell's a monopoly. Nobody else but Bell can give them access to the copper lines.
said by hottboiinnc :
And actually it's common business sense. Look at what happened down here. The same thing. The ISPs didn't make shit. The Telco's went to the Feds and go them kicked off the network. If they didn't have their own network what happened? they closed. That's the way it should have been.
You should compare that to what happened in France. The french "feds" didn't back down to corporate lobying from France Telecom and force their hand to keep providing small ISPs with cheap access to local copper loops. As a result, the small ISPs flourished and started laying out their own fiber networks. This is exactly what should have happened in the states but you're happy it didn't for some odd reason. Maybe you're just a corpoate shill spamming your propaganda around ? Hmmm ?
said by hottboiinnc :
These companies knew that this was coming sooner or later. They just decided not to do anything about it. Just like they did here.
These companies lack the financial power and political influence to have any sort of impact that compared to Bell's. They didn't really have a choice but to fight it out.
Adi
reply
lrtc @ 22nd May 04:06PM:
Wasted money
Our government can fund a company and that company is not allowed to have any market advantage. I'm glad to see my tax dollars wasted again.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 04:09PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
I'm still incredibly amazed that some posters with no idea how the Canadian telecom industry works, love to come on here and shamelessly troll on with their pseudo-libertarian nonsense.
First of all, its our infrastructure, not Bell's we paid for it with our tax dollars.
Second of all, there are laws which I pay for unfortunately, that prevent TSI (and other resellers) that prevent them from building out their own network with the same ease as the incumbents.
People hate the stacked deck, they don't want handouts from bell.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
fiestaware @ 22nd May 04:23PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Adi is right: 2.4Ghz telephones don't even work in my (high-density) apartment building. I wouldn't want to try transferring large amounts of data at that frequency.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 04:47PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
I'm not out numbered.
Um you are outnumbered, and you need a basic english class to boot.
My first language is french and I have a better command of english grammar and sentence structure than you do.
The fact is you are completely ignorant of Canada and its laws, your blanket statements only show your ignorance about the fight that's being going on forever.
I'm assuming you're just an ignorant troll, but on a very slim assumption you were a paid astroturfer, I hope your contract is coming up soon because your employer is definitely not getting their money's worth.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:02PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
You must not have read the PDF about Canopy.
It is designed so IT AVOIDS the interference.
But then again you wouldn't know that since you failed to read.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:03PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
No it DOES NOT stand
You fail to see that Canopy is designed to avoid this interference. You would know that if you read the white papers. But you must not understand those like everything else, especially since the only time you really post is when it has to do with Bell killing off the ISPs because they're lazy.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:05PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
doesn't matter if they make money off it or not. They still took the time, and money to get bell to offer them the services. In return TekSavvy spends money marketing the product and selling it.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:06PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Maybe because my ISP actually but its network out instead of leaching off the Telephone companies. You know companies here in the USA do that thing. It's called being a real business.
As I have said before Moto Canopy AVOIDS the interference.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:08PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
That small business grant was not for me thank you very much. And who says I'm not spending my own money. Also I don't need to build a business out like the ISPs. My business is small and doesn't require that. But then again i know of these things called Venture Capital.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:09PM:
Re: Ugh
I have talked to several Rogers Customers and you know what? they're happy with Rogers. DSL SUCKS! Especially when you have to deal with a 3rd party ISP that can pass the problems on to the actual company providing the last mile.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:10PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Those gave you the right to get telephone service. NOT to build out an Internet Network.
Also the network was given to Bell. IT DOES NOT Belong to the people. So you keep saying how YOU gave them money. You didn't give them shit. People maybe ~100+ years ago did. NOT you.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:11PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Those laws do NOT stop them from building a Wireless Network. You should learn that.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:13PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Sorry don't work in IT anymore. You can have your french as well. And just because my English is not properly structured on here doesn't mean I can not talk proper.
And no my comments are not blank. You want TekSavvy and every other ISP fall.
Their days are numbered with 9 more to go.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:15PM:
Re: Great Article!!
No you did not give them money. I don't believe you paid for the services ~100+ years ago. Did you? I don't think so
Also the Gov't turned that network over to Bell. It's now their network which they will do what they see fit with it. And that's to get rid of the leaches.
Anti trust? LMAO! It can't be Anti-Trust! And i'm sure you "people" have the money to take on Bell. Good Luck! I'm sure they'll love to own your home when they drag you through court.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 22nd May 05:15PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Yah especially since you don't know how to read and understand a white paper.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 05:16PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
Once again you're completely missing the point. Wireless infrastructure like the kind you're proposing doesn't work in densely populated areas.
And once again it isn't bell's network it belongs to the Canadian Taxpayer.
I'm taking a trick from you book. Maybe if I just repeat myself over and over you'll understand.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 05:20PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
Sorry don't work in IT anymore.
Good thing, you lack the logic to properly analyse problems anyways.
said by hottboiinnc :
You can have your french as well. And just because my English is not properly structured on here doesn't mean I can not talk proper.
You just proved my point in spades.
said by hottboiinnc :
And no my comments are not blank. You want TekSavvy and every other ISP fall.
Their days are numbered with 9 more to go.
Like I said... if this is what Big Telco/Big CableCo are getting for their lobbying dollars then the world is a sorry place indeed.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 05:29PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
You can have your french as well.
That just goes to show how small minded some Americans really are.
How do you expect to contribute to a conversation about Canada with an attitude like that?
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 05:32PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by hottboiinnc :
Yah especially since you don't know how to read and understand a white paper.
You got plenty to say about reading and writing skills buddy...
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
Fireblade @ 22nd May 05:42PM:
Re: Great Article!!
I thought Urbanriot was a tool, this guy is in a completely different league.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.
reply
mazhurg @ 22nd May 05:51PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :»
tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···make-you"Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with WHOLESALE service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers
Read more: »
tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···tZR3Qu&B"
and for the people who didn't already know - the reason why bell can throttle ADSL is because most companies choose to rent wholesale services from bell and just stick their own name on it thats why in some situations in ontario(you can't do this in bc or alberta) with various ADSL companies you can trade passwords and USERids and it usually works)
Considering that level 0 and 2 transports have really nothing to do with the above layers, and that those layers can be used for much more than TCP/IP (lvl 3), you really shine in your ignorance.
Perhaps you should crawl back under the rock you came from, where the dank warmth of corporate spew keeps you happily ignorant.
--
"Vision without funds....
is a hallucination"
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 06:03PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by Fireblade :
I thought Urbanriot was a tool, this guy is in a completely different league.
Yeah its sort of like dousing your head with gasoline and then running through a forest fire.
At first you wanna kick his ass but then you realize how pathetic he is and you start feeling a mixture of disgust and pity all at once
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
Snickerdo @ 22nd May 06:11PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by El Quintron :
At first you wanna kick his ass but then you realize how pathetic he is and you start feeling a mixture of disgust and pity all at once
Dude, he lives in Ohio. We win. End of story.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
cpsycho @ 22nd May 06:29PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Bell keeps getting grants to this day to build out the network. So really quit with it. They also have right away access. You live in Ohio, do yourself a favor and quit buying stocks in a Canadian company if you don't like our rules.
reply
El Quintron @ 22nd May 06:35PM:
Re: Great Article!!
Yeah he's one of those guys who never made it to Cleveland... the only good place in Ohio.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.
reply
Snickerdo @ 22nd May 06:40PM:
Re: Great Article!!
said by El Quintron :
Yeah he's one of those guys who never made it to Cleveland... the only good place in Ohio.
... and that right there says something, hah.
reply
glparker4 @ 22nd May 07:23PM:
Something to consider...
Companies like Verizon Communications are deploying FIOS throughout their territory. Smaller companies like SaskTel are following the lead. Do you think these companies would invest so heavily in these networks if they were forced to resell them to competitors at regulated rate?
I am an American living in Canada. I do understand the argument that Bell's network should be 'opened' in the public interest as it was funded by tax subsidies. I have always disagreed with the privatisation of the internet. This is similar to placing all major highways in the control of one large company. However, it will be a cold day in hell for the government to take over these networks.
Considering this, I try to understand how reselling the existing network will encourage innovation, investments, and upgrades of the network by the ILEC. For example, why isn't Bell deploying FIOS rapidly like Verizon?
Here in Vancouver, most residents in the downtown core have at least THREE providers for broadband access...Shaw (the incumbent cable operator), Telus (the incumbent phone provider), and Novus (a newcomer with a fibre network). Is it possible that we will see more companies similar to Novus appear in Canadian and US cities in the near future?
reply
MIghtyCicero @ 22nd May 09:22PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by adisor19 :
FROM US, THE CONSUMERS.
We are NOT consumers. We are CITIZENS.
People have to stop reducing themselves to autonomous profit-generating-waste-producing drones.
reply
brad @ 22nd May 09:38PM:
Re: Ugh
said by hottboiinnc :
I have talked to several Rogers Customers and you know what? they're happy with Rogers. DSL SUCKS! Especially when you have to deal with a 3rd party ISP that can pass the problems on to the actual company providing the last mile.
Rogers SUCKS ASS.
reply
anon @ 22nd May 11:17PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
you aren't in CA so why does this matter so much to you?
reply
anon @ 22nd May 11:56PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
do you own stock or something? Or are you just being an ass for the sheer amusement of it?
reply
Snickerdo @ 22nd May 11:24PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
You fail to see that Canopy is designed to avoid this interference. You would know that if you read the white papers. But you must not understand those like everything else, especially since the only time you really post is when it has to do with Bell killing off the ISPs because they're lazy.
Having actual experience with Canopy equipment, I can say for certain that it doesn't work anywhere near as well as you make it out to, and that's at 5GHz. It's hate to see what it'd be like at 2.4 with all the interference around here.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
Tails @ 23rd May 01:55AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
So you agree with the CRTC ruling, despite the fact that Karl has repeatedly pointed out in his stories that these members are former executives of rogers/bell?
I don't see why you are trying to use a straw man's argument here about Moto Canopy. I've read your posts, and you say "BUILD YOUR OWN NETWORK! STOP MARKETING YOUR PRODUCT! SINK SOME OF THAT PROFIT INTO BUILDING A NETWORK!"
So, what these small ISPs should do is instead build their own networks, which would cost a small fortune? Not to mention, if you have actually been following this story from its infancy, you would understand that Bell is a monopoly? I'm not going to reiterate what someone post above, but if you read again, you would understand why building your own network like you suggest is not possible.
You are saying, in essence, that these small ISPs should instead offer their customers inferior wireless broadband...honestly man, why are you trying to defend Bell? I see what you are trying to say about "who owns the network in the end", but like I said...I challenge you to reread the news stories, and do a little more research other than spout this nonsense that you think is knowledgeable.
The fact that you are arguing over something that you have barely any knowledge of at all appalls me. Go back and do some more reading, and then come talk about what you think "running a business requires."
I'd also like to add that the same logic about "STOP MARKETING" can be applied to Bell. They should build up their OWN NETWORK if they are complaining about congestion issues. The fact that Bell can't supply the evidence to support their position shows that Bell just wants to stifle competition.
--
Do or do not, there is no try! - Yoda
reply
scavio @ 23rd May 09:13AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
These small businesses didn't require building out either. For some reason, you think they did.
I just think it's funny that "the person who isn't you "that wanted to find ways to get a business grant is justified (or you wouldn't have asked) but these evil small businesses aren't supposed to fight for what they have rights to.
reply
mlerner @ 23rd May 09:38AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
And they would be building out if Bell didn't make it so costly and difficult to co-locate in the CO's and give some access to remotes. Having said all that they are looking at some fiber deployments but they likely won't be able to do many build outs with the costs associated with that.
reply
adisor19 @ 23rd May 11:49AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by MIghtyCicero :said by adisor19 :
FROM US, THE CONSUMERS.
We are NOT consumers. We are CITIZENS.
People have to stop reducing themselves to autonomous profit-generating-waste-producing drones.
Ya well there is a very VERY fine line between the two terms..
Adi
reply
adisor19 @ 23rd May 11:51AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
You must not have read the PDF about Canopy.
It is designed so IT AVOIDS the interference.
But then again you wouldn't know that since you failed to read.
I don't know what you're smoking but if the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum is full of crap, there is no way to "avoid" interference. Speeds will drop to a crawl even with your super Canopy hardware.
Adi
reply
adisor19 @ 23rd May 11:55AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by hottboiinnc :
No it DOES NOT stand
You fail to see that Canopy is designed to avoid this interference. You would know that if you read the white papers. But you must not understand those like everything else, especially since the only time you really post is when it has to do with Bell killing off the ISPs because they're lazy.
LOL, uhuh, i'd like to see if avoid interference on the 2.4Ghz band when it's chock full of : leaky microwave ovens, digital phones, wireless Xbox remotes, WFI access points and Bluetooth phones and every other wireless connectivity under the sun. No matter how good your Canopy device it, there is nothing it can do when the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum is full of crap. This is NOT the miraculous solution that the ISPs need. This is akin to the BPL panacea that everyone was blowing in our face a year ago. Whatever happened with that ? Oh right, it was senseless to begin with.
Adi
reply
Snickerdo @ 23rd May 12:04PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by adisor19 :
LOL, uhuh, i'd like to see if avoid interference on the 2.4Ghz band when it's chock full of : leaky microwave ovens, digital phones, wireless Xbox remotes, WFI access points and Bluetooth phones and every other wireless connectivity under the sun. No matter how good your Canopy device it, there is nothing it can do when the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum is full of crap. This is NOT the miraculous solution that the ISPs need. This is akin to the BPL panacea that everyone was blowing in our face a year ago. Whatever happened with that ? Oh right, it was senseless to begin with.
The moron doesn't know what he's blabbering about. I have several clients on Canopy 5GHz equipment for Internet connectivity and one using Canopy 2.4GHz as a Point-to-Point link between two locations. While it works, I'd question whether it works well, and it is by no means in any way shape or form a replacement for a proper wireline connection. We always recommend that our clients ditch wireless the moment a wired alternative like cable or DSL becomes available in their area.
Also, using Canopy as an example only further proves that this clown has no clue what he's talking about, as there are MUCH MUCH better wireless implementations out there. Still, even these are no replacement for a proper wireline connection.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
mlerner @ 23rd May 12:33PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by Snickerdo :
The moron doesn't know what he's blabbering about. I have several clients on Canopy 5GHz equipment for Internet connectivity and one using Canopy 2.4GHz as a Point-to-Point link between two locations. While it works, I'd question whether it works well, and it is by no means in any way shape or form a replacement for a proper wireline connection.
A point to point connection with high gain antennas on roof tops is absolutely fine. In a ISP rollout where the range and elevation varies it's much more difficult and not reliable unless it's in ideal conditions.
reply
Snickerdo @ 23rd May 12:36PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by mlerner :
A point to point connection with high gain antennas on roof tops is absolutely fine. In a ISP rollout where the range and elevation varies it's much more difficult and not reliable unless it's in ideal conditions.
We've had issues with the point-to-point connection, but that turned out to be more firmware related than anything else and was eventually solved. Was a real pain in the ass when we were dealing with it, though.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
anon @ 23rd May 09:03PM:
Bell is the ideal corporate greed machine.
The fact that they pretty much own the crtc and can get away with murder is proof.
reply
davidl @ 23rd May 10:29PM:
Nationalize Telecommunications Networks
It's like this...frakking Bell gives us what we want, or it's time to pull a Venezuela and nationalize their infrastructure...we'll still get screwed, but so will they.
If Steven Harper's Conservatives will not deliver satisfaction on this issue (I voted for him), I will vote NDP, Liberal or Bloc Quebcois in the next federal election...frak Canada...it has never been anything to me but a liability anyway.
reply
XNemesis @ 24th May 01:40AM:
Re: Nationalize Telecommunications Networks
I still say that the biggest problem is that this situation is largely unknown to most Canadians. If a large majority of internet users being fed up enough to force a difference does not occur, then this current dilemma will never change, or at least not for a very very long time. And I just wonder if word is really getting out there beyond this website and it's Canadian users?
reply
anon @ 25th May 07:25AM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
another point the poster in support of wireless fails to acknowledge is security! AS an IT security professional I can tell you ANY type of wireless connection can be compromised, wired hard lines can NOT. so weather its 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz, or 6.0 DECT ( which is in the works to be next) it can all be hacked. I have installed wired and wireless systems on both the US and Canadian sides of the border.
reply
alphaz18 @ 25th May 02:31PM:
To HotBoi.
I do understand to some extend where hotboiinc is coming from. he is looking at this from a purely capitalistic viewpoint. in a free market capitalistic world. he would be absolutely right. However, Bell does not exist in a capitalistic environment. they were given money by tax payers to build the network. and as such they don't deserve these same rights.
How would you like it, if you were working hard at your little private company, then.. some other startup with ties to the gvn't got 100 million $ in free money from gvn't then opened the same business as you, then drove you out of business with $$$ and government support? .. according to your theory. that would make it absolutely your own fault that you got crushed because you didnt have better ties with the gvn't and didnt have 100 million in the bank ready to compete?
I'm sorry but thats the EXACT... same thing thats happening right now to the small ISPs. the world isn't as black and white capitalistic view. theres a pretty huge shade of gray. that is tax payers money and the gvn'ts and how they use it. the problem here is the GVN"T and how they're NOT representing the CITIZENS. but they're representing the Shareholders/Stakeholders of huge monopolistic companies. all this stuff about cable dsl, and moto wireless canopy is moot and just beating around the bush.
reply
anon @ 25th May 08:23PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
i lived in a acerage where 3 different companies provided 900mhz/2.4ghz service. there is nothing but interference between these companies. i have not read the pdf, but experience tells me i dont have to. you need to try this stuff out in all kinds of circumstances b4 typing. informed opinions are not mandatory, but only help to further discusion.
reply
Snickerdo @ 25th May 08:31PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by Buddah :
another point the poster in support of wireless fails to acknowledge is security! AS an IT security professional I can tell you ANY type of wireless connection can be compromised, wired hard lines can NOT. so weather its 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz, or 6.0 DECT ( which is in the works to be next) it can all be hacked. I have installed wired and wireless systems on both the US and Canadian sides of the border.
You must not be that good of an IT professional if you think that wireline is the end-all for security. All it takes is an Ethernet jack and a packet sniffer. With physical access, anyone can do anything.
Of course, wireless makes it all the more easier, but it is most certainly not impossible to break into a wired connection, and once you have physical access it is easier to work with since 99% of the time there's no transport layer encryption or anything of the sort to speak of.
I'll also pay anyone who can break into WPA2/AES with 802.1X in any sort of reasonable amount of time to make it a worthwhile endeavor. Good luck.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
reply
R0CKY @ 25th May 11:34PM:
Re: Bell is growing way too large.
said by st7860 :
it IS white label service and thats why Bell is able to throttle it. companies can choose to rent bare parts like copper lines and place their OWN equipment into a central office then in that situation, bell obviously can't throttle them.
It isn't white label service at all, as you've been told before. What Bell is doing is absolutely wrong. Put it this way. If we turn off the internet IP stuff (which we control as independent ISPs), Bell's DPI equipment will "not" work and you won't have internets.... It is an IP based piece of hardware and looks passed the layer 2 to identify "signatures" as Bell calls it. So, removing the IP component would make the DPI equipment become a very expensive paper weight. A resold/white label service would not have the ability to do this, and we also wouldn't have the ability to bring every single client down, which we also can do....
To further the distinction and the differences between third party ISPs and Sympatico is as follows.... The connection goes to the Central office, hits the BAS and if over Sympatico, it goes directly to the internet, but if over a company, say like TSI/ACANAC/etc., it goes via a type of dumb pipe to a designated, contracted central point. From there we take it and make it become "tha internets".
BTW - I missed you st7860.... where you been hiding? You appear at the funniest times.... :)
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
reply
Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2009 silver matrix LLC