Verizon DNS Redirection 'Service' Spreads - Consumer Affairs: Is this a network neutrality violation?

Verizon DNS Redirection 'Service' Spreads - Consumer Affairs: Is this a network neutrality violation?
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Verizon DNS Redirection 'Service' Spreads
Consumer Affairs: Is this a network neutrality violation?
(old news - 10:31AM Monday Nov 05 2007)
tags: business · networking · net-neutrality · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSL

Verizon has been implementing a DNS redirection service for select DSL and FiOS customers. The service redirects users who mistype URLs to an Verizon-run search page (complete with referral links) instead of giving a traditional error message. While Verizon insists the service was created to help users, it's really just a revenue generator. In essence, butterfingers create a revenue stream.

Verizon isn't alone. ISPs such as Cox, Earthlink and Charter have all tinkered with DNS redirection services. While the majority of users aren't bothered by them, many users believe they "break" core Internet functionality -- causing errors in useful network monitoring tools that require a "clean" 'net.

Consumer Affairs discovers the Verizon redirection service and wonders if the practice violates network neutrality, not only because it disrupts normal DNS functionality, but also because it could be used to deliver advertiser-skewed search results:

In order to redirect the user to the search sites, the user's Domain Name Service (DNS) settings are altered, which can interfere with previously set network security and safe Internet browsing features. It also raises the question of whether or not an Internet provider that automatically redirects a user's searches without telling them will also shape the results they do get, such as filtering their searches to get specific results.

Of course, unlike Comcast's Bit Torrent throttling, Verizon does allow users to opt out of the service. The service first sprung up in the Midwest last June, and just recently appeared on the East Coast. We asked Verizon when/if this would be launched nationally, but received no response.

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N3OGH @ 5th Nov 10:21AM:
Oh it's here now too..

I'm on Verizon DSL here in the Philly 'burbs and I saw this screen yesterday when I had a case of the "butter fingers"

mmmmmmmmmmm Butter......
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 10:26AM:
Doesn't alter user's DNS settings

Consumer Affairs says:

In order to redirect the user to the search sites, the user's Domain Name Service (DNS) settings are altered

The service does nothing to alter the customer's DNS settings. All it does is modify the way Verizon's DNS servers respond when it finds a URL that won't resolve to an IP address. A case can be made that that isn't the best way to do things. But Consumer Affairs doesn't know what they are talking about. And of course they drag in the magical words "net neutrality" as if somehow using these words give some legitimacy to their complaint even though the concept isn't applicable at all in this case.

The redirection on a mistype is a feature many of Verizon's users would want(see OPENDNS's use of this feature to drive people to using OPENDNS dns servers). But they should make it opt-in instead of opt-out and then advertise it to their customers as a good feature to have.
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gaforces @ 5th Nov 10:29AM:
Bad juju

If they are allowed to do this, whats to stop them from going further?
Dictate the browser, OS, or hardware manufacturer?
Make you stop using popup blocker or other security?
After all, it's for the good of the network :P
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woody7 @ 5th Nov 10:30AM:
pfftt...

Have Earthlink, and use open dns, no problems :D :D :D
--
BlooMe
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swhx7 @ 5th Nov 10:35AM:
Re: Doesn't alter user's DNS settings

said by TKJunkMail :

And of course they drag in the magical words "net neutrality" as if somehow using these words give some legitimacy to their complaint even though the concept isn't applicable at all in this case.

said by article :

It also raises the question of whether or not an Internet provider that automatically redirects a user's searches without telling them will also shape the results they do get, such as filtering their searches to get specific results.

[...]

Although Verizon opposes net neutrality, it has also said repeatedly that it would not block content or favor its own offerings over rivals--although it now appears to be doing just that.

In this case it's blocking the "site not found" results that users would encounter from mistyped URLs on a neutral connection.

said by TKJunkMail :

But they should make it opt-in instead of opt-out and then advertise it to their customers as a good feature to have.

Agreed.
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Cyber2lz @ 5th Nov 10:40AM:
What

happens if you don't use V*'s DNS servers??????
--
The Light Pipe is the Right Pipe !!!
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 10:45AM:
Re: What

said by Cyber2lz :

happens if you don't use V*'s DNS servers??????

Then maybe DNS redirection doesn't occur depending on whose DNS servers you use.

Of course redirection is on by default(can be opt-out) at other DNS providers like Opendns( »www.opendns.com/features/overview/ ). So it depends on what DNS servers you point to.
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AnonProxy @ 5th Nov 10:53AM:
Host file

Can you host file the referred to web page and re-redirect the request?

Like if you know all mistypes go to www.search.verizon.com, if you redirected search.verizon.com to another site, would that work?
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 10:54AM:
Re: Bad juju

said by gaforces :

If they are allowed to do this, whats to stop them from going further?
Dictate the browser, OS, or hardware manufacturer?
Make you stop using popup blocker or other security?
After all, it's for the good of the network :P

LOL!!! One has nothing to do with the other. You should really try to get a better understanding of things before making comments like that. Don't like what they do, don't use their DNS servers. They aren't forcing you to do or use anything. Nothing is forcing you to actually pay attention to what appears on the page that opens. It's not like they are hijacking legitimate requests and sending them to other pages.
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 10:56AM:
Re: Host file

Why go through all of that. Just use different DNS servers. They don't lock you into theirs.
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Cabal @ 5th Nov 10:56AM:
That's not all

I've recently learned that Verizon blocks Microsoft RPC ports on their DSL and FiOS users! This is a serious network neutrality issue and must be addressed. Say "No" to network neutrality violations and a filtered Internet!
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
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swhx7 @ 5th Nov 10:58AM:
Re: What

Using DNS servers other than the borked ones avoids the problem of falsified results. But it shouldn't be necessary; accurate DNS, according to internet standards, should be a service the ISP provides.

Reportedly at least one ISP started blocking requests to DNS servers other than their own, but fortunately this does not seem to be common or a trend.

Some entities that run DNS servers do not welcome requests from users outside their own organizations, but generally don't prevent it. But choose carefully. I wouldn't mind placing more load on Microsoft's DNS for example, but I might not have as much confidence in the results as with some others. A local university may be a good choice. Better yet, run your own.
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AnonProxy @ 5th Nov 11:01AM:
Re: Host file

It's more of a question than a suggestion.
As for why, the converse could be said...why not? I am not assured of faster or "better" DNS service from a "third party"
In fact in some companies (my institution for example) many fo the "alternate" DNS servers are blocked.
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swhx7 @ 5th Nov 11:03AM:
Re: That's not all

I assume you're being sarcastic. There is no good reason for anyone to be exposing Microsoft networking ports on the internet, unless you're a researcher running a honeypot. It's just a way for malware to get in.

But seriously, on principle I'd rather have unfiltered.

Breaking DNS standards is more significant though. Returning false results is much worse than filtering malicious packets.
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gaforces @ 5th Nov 11:12AM:
Re: Bad juju

"Give them an inch, and they take a mile"
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TheMadAdmin @ 5th Nov 11:17AM:
Not Liking this

this is a business. No ethical thought was put into it weather it was right or wrong.

Yes it is wrong. They have changed the way the internet works at it's base, stealing traffic for their own site.

Also once this step is made they can take the next step and redirect traffic away from sites it doesn't want people getting to.... Smart business choice but ethically bankrupt.

»themadadmin.com/wp/?p=1035 (Post on it.)

TheMadAdmin (Dave)
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en102 @ 5th Nov 11:25AM:
Re: Host file

I agree... there's a difference between having to 'opt out' of Verizon's or any other ISP's 'site finder DNS' vs. having to 'opt in'.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
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morbo @ 5th Nov 11:30AM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

Don't like what they do, don't use their DNS servers. They aren't forcing you to do or use anything.

this is my favorite line as it places the blame on technologically ignorant consumers. it makes Verizon look like it actually cares about consumers when it cares more about money. if they really cared about consumers it would be opt-in .
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 11:32AM:
Re: Host file

Speaking specifically about Verizon, yeah, you will get better service from a third party. What work does isn't really your concern, is it? You are going to use what they want you to anyway.

They do not return false results. They tell you the page can't be found and give you a list of things that may have been what you were looking for.
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 11:41AM:
Re: Bad juju

Should it be opt-in, sure, why not. But it is not having any effect at all on what you or anybody else does. Hell, 90% of the addresses I mistype anyway has already been taken by 3rd parties doing the same thing. Is it greedy? Absolutely. Unethical? Eh. And they did send notice that they were doing this. Of all of the crap for people to cry about, this isn't one of them. If you don't like it, don't use their servers. Pretty simple.
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morbo @ 5th Nov 11:47AM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

If you don't like it, don't use their servers. Pretty simple.

as i just said, no it isn't. not for the tech ignorant, which is most of their customers.
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Transmaster @ 5th Nov 12:14PM:
Re: Not Liking this

You have a good point, this is a fact of life in the internet porno world. Type in a wrong URL and you get sucked in and the only defense you have is Firefox which gives you more control over this sort of thing.
--
Eat pork chops for Allah!
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russotto @ 5th Nov 12:19PM:
Obnoxious, but not NN-violating

It seems "net neutrality" is the "in" buzzword. This DNS redirection isn't net neutrality violating. It doesn't affect my ability to exchange packets with any host of my choice on any network of my choice. It's obnoxious for other reasons, but not for net neutrality reasons.
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JSRoman @ 5th Nov 12:22PM:
Re: Host file

Better yet, type the correct freaking web address and yahtzee, no problems.
--
»www.seabee.navy.mil
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SilverSurfer @ 5th Nov 12:22PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

But it is not having any effect at all on what you or anybody else does.

And you would know this definitively because?

said by Jodokast96 :

If you don't like it, don't use their servers. Pretty simple.

That is beautiful advice to suggest to those of us who know better and know that there are other DNS servers out there to use. But what about the (as someone else put it) technologically ignorant?

Given what we already know about providers, it is fairly accurate to state that if they're given a millimeter, they'll take ten thousand miles. This particular matter is no exception to that evidence.
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swhx7 @ 5th Nov 12:26PM:
Re: Not Liking this

I assume you mean that you get something unwanted - ads, popups - when you mistype the intended URL. But that's not because anyone's monkeying with DNS. Instead it's entrepreneurs (well, typo-squatters) who really own the similar domains. DNS is returning correct results, they're just not what you wanted.

This is different because Verizon is having their DNS servers return an IP address of their ad server (which is false; their ad server's IP does not really belong to the typed URL) when the true reply would be "no such domain".
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 12:30PM:
Re: Bad juju

So tell me then, what the effect is? Are they redirecting you to to another page in place of the one you typed? No. The page you typed doesn't exist. So instead you're sent to a search page, and told the page you were looking for wasn't found. This is nothing more than a money grab.

As for the technoloically ignorant, they won't know the difference anyway. This is exactly the type of person it can give some help to. Maybe next they'll spell the site right.
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birdfeedr @ 5th Nov 12:32PM:
Re: Host file

said by Jodokast96 :

Why go through all of that. Just use different DNS servers. They don't lock you into theirs.

The redirection finally hit here. I've been checking it off and on since the topic first came up earlier this summer.

While I know that the Actiontec router for FIOS customers can use different DNS addresses, it's not yet clear how the average joe is going to be able to make the change.

And, what would you suggest they be changed to? Level3's DNS addresses?

Added: Opting out takes you to this page with instructions for changing settings in the Router. Verizon has the instructions for all their routers. »netservices.verizon.net/portal/l···uct=fios

Instructions are to change the last octet of the DNS settings to .14
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 12:39PM:
Re: Host file

All but only the oldest of Verizons modems can change the DNS servers. Or you can simply set it in your pc's networking options. As to what to use? Some have said the 4.2.2.x servers are re-directing, but I'm not seeing it. Or you can use your own »www.ntcanuck.com
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Ahrenl @ 5th Nov 12:40PM:
Re: Host file

They could just opt-out.
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 12:44PM:
Re: Host file

said by Ahrenl :

They could just opt-out.

Oh the horror! Perish the thought!
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TheMadAdmin @ 5th Nov 12:44PM:
Re: Not Liking this

Yeah,

But that is the next step to "protect people".

Then it is an easy jump to "Manage Information" where they choose if you find info about something like Verizon. How long before they redirect DSLREPORTS.com? They don't like it, they control the DNS. They redirect you.

They shouldn't mess with the fundamentals of the internet.
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 12:53PM:
Re: Not Liking this

And everything that any person or company does can be made into an "easy jump" to anything and everything. My God, they make you give them your address. The next logical step is that a bruiser will be standing over you making sure you don't switch providers now that they know where you live? Ridiculous? Totally, yet people will spew stuff like that. If they wanted to do total redirects of legitimate traffic, they would just do it. This is not going to condition people to accept that crap at any point in the future. You can all cry bitch and moan, and you will change nothing about this. It's not illegal, barely unethical, and totally greedy, nothing more. You have every choice to do whatever you want, they are not taking that away from you.
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migafre @ 5th Nov 12:57PM:
been a few days

Yeah it's been a few days with this piece of crap DNS redirect (noone from verizon mentioned it either). When it poped up, it couldn't even find the site I was looking for, to compare it, I tried searching through google and my search was the first one at the top of the page.
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Transmaster @ 5th Nov 01:03PM:
Re: Not Liking this

Yes I used the porno as a example of how it might look from the person sitting in front of a computer.
--
Eat pork chops for Allah!
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cornelius785 @ 5th Nov 01:09PM:
it is here in worcester

i just tried it from a command line based browser and this 'improvement' came up. maybe i should look into another dns server other than verizon.... assuming i'm not too lazy
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jester121 @ 5th Nov 01:11PM:
Re: Bad juju

The quintessential "slippery slope" argument, staple of DSLreports users the world over.

I'm nearly halfway through the comments and George Bush hasn't been blamed yet. We did have the cheap shot at Comcast in the headlines, however, so we know at least Karl is on the job this morning.
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 01:12PM:
Re: it is here in worcester

As noted 8 posts above, they give you the opt-out instructions right on their own site. That link is for FIOS customers, here's the one for DSL: »netservices.verizon.net/portal/l···duct=dsl.
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cableties @ 5th Nov 01:27PM:
Butter fingers my google!

I typed in "www.google.com" and got THAT Verizon page! I'm looking going, WTF???! I type google.com and same page! I loaded the proper URL (»www.google.com) and I still get that!!!
So I flushed my DNS, deleted any (I had the FIOS one and the trusty old 4.2.2.1...) DNS server names/caches and then replaced the DNS with OpenDNS numbers.

Gone! No more Verizon redirect. You should do the same. ;)

Hey, and this was on OS 10.5 !!
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ross @ 5th Nov 01:31PM:
Re: Not Liking this

said by Jodokast96 :

And everything that any person or company does can be made into an "easy jump" to anything and everything. My God, they make you give them your address. The next logical step is that a bruiser will be standing over you making sure you don't switch providers now that they know where you live? Ridiculous? Totally, yet people will spew stuff like that. If they wanted to do total redirects of legitimate traffic, they would just do it. This is not going to condition people to accept that crap at any point in the future. You can all cry bitch and moan, and you will change nothing about this. It's not illegal, barely unethical, and totally greedy, nothing more. You have every choice to do whatever you want, they are not taking that away from you.

Yet...
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nixen @ 5th Nov 01:32PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

Don't like what they do, don't use their DNS servers. They aren't forcing you to do or use anything.

Of course, that's "today". Who knows what "tomorrow" will bring? It's trivially simple to set up a rule in a router that simply redirects all 53/udp to "butter-finger" DNS servers and it won't matter what you have in your computer's local settings. If they're trying these "services" as something "optional" now, it's only a matter of time until they aren't an option.
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 5th Nov 01:44PM:
Angry with Verizon

I've noticed this the last few days and it is most frequently the result of Verizon's own DNS server errors.

For example, I typed »www.google.com and got this message. It only happens about 1 in 50 pages I load but that's too much. I also had this problem at www.linuxquestions.org. I was replying to a post and then when I hit "post message" I got the redirect. After using the back button I tried to post again, and again got the redirect. The only way to fix it was to close Firefox and then restart Firefox, which caused me to lose a long message I had typed.

Upon further investigation I found that verizon was placing cookies to track the failed addresses. To see this for yourself, open firefox, go to Edit->Preferences->Privacy->Cookies (or Tools->Options->Privacy->Cookies) and view the cookies from verizon. Type an erroneous address such as www.verizon.cmo and you will se the cookie appear.

I followed instruction at verizon website to opt out but I'm still getting these redirects.

Let me be clear on this: I HATE IT. ABOUT 90% OF THE TIME I GET THE REDIRECT IS BECAUSE OF VERIZON DNS ERROR, not my mis-spelling or bad address. Most times I've typed or clicked a good address that inexplicably did not resolve.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 5th Nov 01:49PM:
Re: Butter fingers my google!

Same here. I was getting the redirect even when the address I typed was completely correct and well known good address.

It also seemed to cache the redirect somewhere because after the first failed google.com resolution it would happen every time until I restarted my browser.

I followed the instructions to add .14 to the last octet of the DNS Servers but I'm still getting the message. Gues I'll have to go the OpenDNS.
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SilverSurfer @ 5th Nov 01:52PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

So tell me then, what the effect is?

Clearly, you don't see any big deal about a DNS redirect and bury your head in the sand accordingly, but I'm wondering what other seemingly innoucuous avenue ripe for a "money grab" will the provider take next.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 5th Nov 01:53PM:
Re: Not Liking this

They were redirecting www.linuxquestions.org yesterday. I also got redirects from www.google.com and www.cloudynights.com. All of these are valid addresses but instead I got the Verizon Search page sponsored by Yahoo.
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S_engineer @ 5th Nov 02:40PM:
Re: Bad juju

Agreed, the "honor" system providers once semi-adhered to with the networks is out the window. They will bring net-neutrality regs upon themselves. Then everyone will lose.... except of course the CEOs ...and Haliburton!
--
Where have the adults gone?
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Conficio @ 5th Nov 02:51PM:
It's not the users, but the programmers and service provider

While the majority of users aren't bothered by them, many users believe they "break" core Internet functionality -- causing errors in useful network monitoring tools that require a "clean" 'net.

As sooo many commentators here mentioned, most users do not recognize the difference. But it is the programmers that are upset about tinkering with established protocols, such as DNS. Their programs might fail. The same is true for service providers. If your customer can't find a website, because (s)he did mistype the domain, than it is your problem, and you might not even be aware of it. Isn't that about what the RICO law (»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_···ns_Act)? Isn't that interfering with other people's commerce?

If you want this gone, call Verizon support as often as you can and complain that they block the website you want to reach (mistyped off course). Once they realize this foolish breaking the DNS protocol, costs them more in support requests than they gain in ad revenue, they'll stop it. Assuming they even make the connection.
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SilverSurfer @ 5th Nov 02:59PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by S_engineer :

They will bring net-neutrality regs upon themselves. Then everyone will lose.... except of course the CEOs ...and Haliburton!

NN will benefit anyone with an Internet connection. In fact, every org across the spectrum is on board with NN. I'm not sure where Halliburton comes into play in the NN discussion unless they have become a provider.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 5th Nov 03:54PM:
Re: It's not the users, but the programmers and service provider

said by Conficio :

call Verizon support as often as you can and complain that they block the website you want to reach (mistyped off course).

NOT Mistyped.
You're wrong on that. This redirect is happening most often when the website is typed _CORRECTLY_. Thats my big problem with it. I'm frequently clicking internal links within a web page and being redirected to the Verizion Web Search page. The links and addresses are correct. Its an error by Verizon DNS that sends me to their websearch page.

Is this spelled correctly? www.google.com

Then why does it randomly send me to Verizon websearch? That's the big issue. I'm being redirected when there is no error on my end.
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en102 @ 5th Nov 04:06PM:
Re: Not Liking this

If I have an application that relies on proper functioning DNS through nslookup / gethostbyname, and it now fails to return a 404 on an incorrect domain vs. VZ pushing out a non expected result (i.e. the domain doesn't exist, but VZ gives a response stating it is, then VZ has some serious liability issues to deal with.

Eg.
> sdfgj9sd.com
Server: dns2.dslextreme.com
Address: 66.51.206.100

*** dns2.dslextreme.com can't find sdfgj9sd.com: Non-existent host/domain

Having that come back with a valid IP address is WRONG!
It is NOT valid DNS if the response is not valid.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
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anon @ 5th Nov 04:37PM:
yep

Just use OpenDNS.

»www.infospace.com/_1_NW6UL902LCS···more.htm
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gaforces @ 5th Nov 05:23PM:
Re: Bad juju

Glad to be of service ...
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massysett @ 5th Nov 05:23PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Jodokast96 :

But what about the (as someone else put it) technologically ignorant?

The technologically ignorant won't care. They might even find this useful. The technologically sophisticated, who want a "clean net" or whatever, can opt out or use different DNS servers.

Bunch of hoopla over nothing.
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AnonProxy @ 5th Nov 05:28PM:
Re: Host file

Again for my example:
Let us say you work at an office and can not "opt out" as you do not have control of the router and you can not change your IP settings on your local machine to chose a specific DNS server (due to policy). A real example of WHY people would not be able to use another DNS service. Would doing a host file change work or not?

As well a blanket statement like "ohhh yeah you will get a better results from a third party DNS", is foolish at best.
You are in no position to judge that for everyone, everywhere, nor do you have enough long term performance metrics to prove that. I am looking for real facts, not just some feel good speculation or marketing from the companies providing alternative DNS services, do you have those?
Can you back the statement that you will be better off with a DNS service from a third party over Verizon with performance metrics?
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 05:48PM:
Re: Bad juju

You could at least quote the right person. ;)
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 05:54PM:
Re: Host file

I don't know whether a host file change would work or not, but in a work environment, that's for them to decide if they want to use Verizon's DNS servers or not, not the end user. That situation is truly a who the f*** cares. It affects the end user personally in no way.

I can only back it from personal experience, but try them for yourself. You'll see.
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Combat Chuck @ 5th Nov 06:19PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by nixen :

If they're trying these "services" as something "optional" now, it's only a matter of time until they aren't an option.

Please!!! The problem with the slippery slope argument is it can validly be taken all the way back to the other end of ridiculousness. If this is an issue because it leads to forced redirects then you know what, lets go all the way back and say it's bad for Verizon to offer internet service at all because if they're offering internet service now it's only a matter of time until they force redirect DNS requests to their servers.

Or we could, you know, wait for them to actually force redirects before accusing them of doing it.
--
Mooooooo!!!
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Jodokast96 @ 5th Nov 06:20PM:
Re: Bad juju

Thank you!
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Combat Chuck @ 5th Nov 06:24PM:
Re: Host file

said by AnonProxy :

Can you host file the referred to web page and re-redirect the request?

Yes, as long as it always redirects to reasonably small set of hosts.

Some routers allow you to override URL's too.
--
Mooooooo!!!
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Combat Chuck @ 5th Nov 06:30PM:
Re: Host file

said by birdfeedr :

While I know that the Actiontec router for FIOS customers can use different DNS addresses, it's not yet clear how the average joe is going to be able to make the change.

The average joe isn't going to care. The bottom line is that anyone that finds this an issue either already knows how to counter it, or has the skills to find out how to counter.
--
Mooooooo!!!
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neftv @ 5th Nov 06:31PM:
what are they taking about

When I go to www.asklfewa.com I dont go to a verizon page I got to something else see attached.

Testpage.rtf.zip 146,292 bytes

jjeffeory @ 5th Nov 07:07PM:
Re: yep

Just stop using Verizon's DNS servers. That's what I did when I had Fios. Too bad I can't get it here. Maybe I'll move.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 07:37PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Combat Chuck :

said by nixen :

If they're trying these "services" as something "optional" now, it's only a matter of time until they aren't an option.

I've worked for Verizon (and MCI and Bell Atlantic). Unfortunately, I can tell you, it's not like the PHB's didn't periodically ask whether such redirection could be done.

But, hey, keep on thinking that the guys in the suits are "on your side".
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.
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81399672 @ 5th Nov 09:26PM:
Guess verizon haven't learned yet

Dslextreme tried and other tried and at the end they gave up from bad publicity. Verizon needs to realize that extra revenue that they get will not be enough after they start losing customers and bad pr
--
i am not a lawyer but I do play one on the internet
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JohnNWPVNJMH @ 5th Nov 10:20PM:
DNS Error Page

This is not a big deal at all! I know those that wear aluminum foil hats are screaming bloody hell but let's look at this realistically!

First and foremost, the average user is not so savvy. This service will be GREAT for them and actually help them find the sites they mistype and so on.

If Verizon is smart they should take this DNS service and create what OpenDNS offers ... the ability for the Verizon users to log into a control panel and block certain domains such as porn, whitelist sites and blacklist others and track their DNS stats.

On a technical standpoint this service will NOT affect clean DNS. You will ONLY get a help page if the site you try to find does not resolve to an IP!

For the likes of the trio from The X-Files, users can OptOut from this service.

For those that are technical minded and likes what Verizon is doing in regards to help pages, consider checking out the OpenDNS.Com service as it does what Verizon is doing and much more! You can block domains, block porn, block phishing sites, track your network stats and much more.

In regards to advert revenue, great idea Verizon .... extra revenue from such things like this helps to keep package prices affordable for subscribers! Why would anyone cry that Verizon is making money from advert revenue? Someone short the stock or perhaps a Comcast employee is mad they didn't think of it first?

In conclusion, the consumer group that is barking about this service first needs to hire someone that understands what DNS is before they comment on something they certainly do not understand. Verizon is trying to implement a service that will help average users, not tech savvy people like you and I ... the people that browse DSLReports.com ... but the people that call YOU up when their MS Word document disappears from their desktop... .the average user! That said, the service is even helpful for geeks as it confirms the DNS service is working and that for sure the web site they tried does not resolve.
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Combat Chuck @ 5th Nov 10:21PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by nixen :

I've worked for Verizon (and MCI and Bell Atlantic). Unfortunately, I can tell you, it's not like the PHB's didn't periodically ask whether such redirection could be done.

But, hey, keep on thinking that the guys in the suits are "on your side".

Did I say they were on my side, no. What I'm saying is the slippery slope argument is a stupid argument that is turned to when one wants to vilify anything. This is a non issue, should they start redirecting all DNS traffic to their servers, that is a separate issue. Quite frankly for any valid reason you can come up with pointing to this being a problem, I can come up with a valid reason why Verizon would see this as a useful to their customers; the fact that the bad domain error message most browsers throw up is somewhat confusing and likely results in a significant number of support calls incorrectly thinking it's a Verizon problem being just one of them.

The issue is that the majority of the people here will suspend all logic to take whatever opinion it is that makes any large company look bad.
--
Mooooooo!!!
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furlonium @ 5th Nov 10:38PM:
On RCN, too

This happens with RCN, and it pisses me right the fock off.
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Zverina @ 5th Nov 11:04PM:
Re: On RCN, too

just noticed it on RCN. bastards.
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cghh @ 6th Nov 02:17AM:
Re: DNS Error Page

Then there is the observation that the Internet is a WHOLE lot more than WWW. Corrupting DNS like this breaks non-WEB applications that expect to be told a domain does not exist, and have nothing to do with fumble-fingered users. If the ISP wants to capture mistyped browser addresses, then provide a customized browser or browser plugin for their customers that does that redirection. But don't mess up core Internet functionality.
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linicx @ 6th Nov 06:01AM:
My cure

The first time it happened, I was nor happy. I cleared the cookies. The second time it happened I quickly hit the "home" button and the redirect didn't load.
--
Mac: No windows, No gates, Apple inside
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estover @ 6th Nov 07:53AM:
Whats old is new again!

I remember when VeriSign made this kind of change in the root. The flood of posts from NANOG was more than my mail server could handle. :) It did the exact same thing. Took misspelled requests and sent the user to a "site finder" page.

To the people that are saying that this is no big deal, the web is a whole lot more than www.yourthinghere.com. One big problem is that it makes most SPAM filters fail. One of the checks it does is to see if the senders domain really exists. If the bad domain is redirected to an IP of any sort, it looks like the sender is OK. For a company with 30 users that have been around for a while, the increase of SPAM not being blocked via this check can be in the thousands per day.
And that is just one thing that failed redirects can break.
Another is site/server monitoring. Unless you put it IP address of the site server the failed site redirect will appear to the monitoring software the the site is up.

I have over 35 servers I monitor for availability, this includes DNS settings/monitoring. Now if the DNS server I use will redirect a failed lookup to a functional IP, it will not alert me to a down server.

Site Finder kind of stuff is OK for the average user, but remember the Web is not only used by 400 pound people with fat fingers looking for porn.

If they are going to break something that doesn't need fixing make it opt-in.

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TechieZero @ 6th Nov 08:09AM:
Re: What

Meh, I use OpenDNS as I noticed Verizon's DNS lags. Plus I like the control OpenDNS gives me.
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printscreen @ 6th Nov 08:32AM:
Re: Bad juju

I agree. For most people a page like that is far more useful than a cryptic "Page cannot be displayed" or "DNS error". It isn't like they are redirecting legitimate addresses to their own servers.
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Jodokast96 @ 6th Nov 10:07AM:
Re: Whats old is new again!

Someone who actually makes a sane and informative argument against this. Thank you and well done. This is a legitimate issue that they should address.
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justin @ 6th Nov 10:59AM:
The opt-out is a pain

The instructions are long, involve multiple pages and end up (for DSL users) saying you should change your DNS server from A.B.C.D to A.B.C.14 (put 14 in the last field).

»netservices.verizon.net/portal/l···=c134108

This is a simple play by verizon to get a monetized search box up in front of users before google does. They are being dishonest in marketing the change as something "helpful" to users. It might be helpful for some users, it might not, but to say that is the REASON they made the change is pure 100% unadulterated corporate dishonesty.
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nixen @ 6th Nov 12:01PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by Combat Chuck :

Quite frankly for any valid reason you can come up with pointing to this being a problem, I can come up with a valid reason why Verizon would see this as a useful to their customers; the fact that the bad domain error message most browsers throw up is somewhat confusing and likely results in a significant number of support calls incorrectly thinking it's a Verizon problem being just one of them.

In all my years of working for ISPs, and that's a LOT of years, I don't think I've ever personally received a call from someone because they typo-ed. As stupid as some users are, and there are some real clue-children out there, typographical errors don't seem to result in support tickets. Who knows, maybe it's just because they're just too stupid to figure out how to get ahold of support, too. Whatever.

said by Combat Chuck :

The issue is that the majority of the people here will suspend all logic to take whatever opinion it is that makes any large company look bad.

True enough. I can admit to having observed that. I can also admit to having observed that there are those that will do the same but for the other half of the argument. That said, my particular beef comes from what I've observed having worked Verizon and for the various companies that now make up Verizon. In other words, I'm familiar with the mindset of the company - and it is a long-standing corporate mind-set.
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 6th Nov 12:33PM:
Re: Bad juju

Yes, they are. Thats the part that bothers me. I am randomly getting their site on properly-formed addresses that obviously exits like www.google.com
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JohnNWPVNJMH @ 6th Nov 02:37PM:
Re: DNS Error Page

You make a good point that I didn't think of at all when assessing this. If non-WEB apps get confused by this, that could be an issue.

That said, I have been using OpenDNS for a while and have had no issues that I can speak of but I can see where you are going with this. Would this system interfere with non-HTTP requests or is this system smart enough differentiate traffic? Hypothetically, if an app is not looking on port 80, this system should be able to bypass the "help" pages.

I just did an experiment, »www.verizon9237i344534hkd7.net:8047/ and instead of the interactive error page I received a normal generic "Could not connect to server" error which tells me that at least OpenDNS ignores non port 80 traffic in whole regarding their interactive error page.

For you that are using the interactive Verizon DNS pages, try this url and »www.verizon9237i344534hkd7.net:8047/ and if you don't get a verizon error you are confirming it is ignoring non-port 80 traffic. This should conclude that this system should not interfere with non-http traffic and apps.
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cghh @ 6th Nov 07:06PM:
Re: DNS Error Page

The port is not part of the DNS system. You just give the DNS server the string and the record type (usually "A"), and it returns some number of IP addresses. The server has no idea what port you intend to connect over once you get the IP address(es). The URL you stated just says to find the IP address associated with that fake name, and then try to connect to it on port 8047. I am willing to bet that that their broken DNS server returned the IP address of their "help" server, but, as expected, that server isn't listening on port 8047, so you get the error you saw. Note that you got "cannot connect to server", not "server not found".
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Combat Chuck @ 6th Nov 08:20PM:
Re: Bad juju

said by nixen :

That said, my particular beef comes from what I've observed having worked Verizon and for the various companies that now make up Verizon. In other words, I'm familiar with the mindset of the company - and it is a long-standing corporate mind-set.

I think you'd be surprised to find out that this same mindset exists at pretty much every large company, and the only difference between them is the number of people who stand in the way of stupid ideas; it's a balance of power thing.

If you're a higher up at Verizon and are uncomfortable with this are you gonna spend your clout on this small by-passable issue or are you going to save it till they do do something like forcing people to their DNS servers.
--
Mooooooo!!!
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JohnNWPVNJMH @ 6th Nov 11:26PM:
Re: DNS Error Page

I am trying to figure out an easy way to test and see if the interactive DNS will interfere with non-http apps or not. I know the port number has nothing to do with DNS, however, does the interactive DNS have something to do with ports? In other words, does OpenDNS and the Verizion "helpful" DNS know that you are requesting DNS lookups for a port 80 request and if so, will it bypass the system completely for non- port 80 traffic? How smart is it?

The "Cannot connect to server" error is an Opera error equivalent to "Server not found" in IE.

I tested the fake URL & a real URL with a random port using IE and this is the error:
Cannot find server or DNS Error
Internet Explorer

Do you have any suggestions in hwo we can test this "interactive" DNS once and for all. I am very curious to see if it interferes with non-http apps or not.
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cghh @ 7th Nov 01:06AM:
Re: DNS Error Page

How about running ftp (instead of a browser) to various sites? That's a nice non-HTTP application. It should give "unknown host" for a non-existent host name.
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Jeff_Dallas @ 7th Nov 12:27PM:
Re: DNS Error Page

That error message you see in Opera and IE are not the actual error messages from the DNS server. The actual errors are error codes such as "404". The actual message you see in your browser is just a result of how Opera or IE decided to handle a 404.

You could try wget, which is a linux method of retrieving http data from a command line. There is a windows version of it. Its very widely used and would likely be adversely affected by this Verizon shinanigans.

400 - Bad request

401 - Unauthorized

403 - Forbidden or Connection refused by host

404 - Not Found or File Not Found 404 errors are among the most common error messages on the Internet.

502 - Service Temporarily Overloaded

503 - Service Unavailable

The friendly HTTP-status error messages are stored in the following registry key:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main\
ErrorThresholds

Internet Explorer 5 and later provides a replacement for the HTML template for the following friendly error messages:

400, 403, 404, 405, 406, 408, 409, 410, 500, 501, 505

There is a name value pair (for example, "404", 128) for each of the errors. The first value is the error code. The second value is the byte size value used by Internet Explorer 5 or later to detect when it should replace error messages with its own. Therefore, when the Internet Explorer 5 version of the Wininet.dll file obtains an HTTP error message, the Wininet.dll file determines if the HTML content attached to the HTTP error is a well designed Web page. This is based on the size of the page. The threshold value in the registry is evaluated for each error. If the Web page is small enough, it gets rejected, and the friendly HTTP-status Web page is displayed.
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altermatt @ 7th Nov 04:38PM:
Open DNS

Very easy even for those who don't usually like fooling with such things ;)...faster and safer:
www.opendns.com
--
The truth of a thing is the feel of it, not the think of it. -- Stanley Kubrick
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mikenolan7 @ 7th Nov 08:22PM:
Re: Doesn't alter user's DNS settings

A small clarification. OpenDNS does not use this feature to drive users to their system. How could they? You have to actually be using their system before they can affect your search results. OpenDNS does use this feature to fund their service, which is otherwise free to the end user (if you don't mind ads when your fingers are all buttery). They make that very clear on their site, and I think the services they provide are well worth it - but that, of course, is just my opinion. I agree with HCT - check them out for yourself. You might be surprised at what you can get out of DNS.

Save the flames, I don't work for them, or get any money from them, I'm not related to them, and I don't know them. I just kinda like the service.
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robertfl @ 7th Nov 10:15PM:
Re: Open DNS

They do the same thing, too.

-Rob
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JohnNWPVNJMH @ 9th Nov 03:36PM:
Re: DNS Error Page

I tried various real and fake FTP addresses and had no problems with OpenDNS server interfering. This suggests that the OpenDNS service is smart enough to know the difference between HTTP requests and other. Someone may want to check this out using the Verizon DNS servers and see if they get the same result. If so, we may be able to finally debunk the idea that helpful DNS will interfere with other, non-HTTP, apps.
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GeekGirl1 @ 10th Nov 10:30AM:
Has anyone tried the opt-out "fix"?

Has anyone in the Philly area done the opt-out? I'm having problems getting it to work. The last byte in the DNS servers is set to 12, but I still get the ad page.

Thread started: »Since when did Verizon start Advertising on busted URLs?

Update: It's fixed. My bad. The last byte should have been set to 14. However, you have to install the update to the correct network connection. In my case, it was to Broadband (Coax), not the Network (Home / Office) as stated in the Verizon instructions. See the thread for info (thanks to noping).
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GeekGirl1 @ 10th Nov 11:11AM:
Re: Has anyone tried the opt-out "fix"?

(duplicate post, sorry)
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anon @ 10th Nov 12:35PM:
How do I fix this?

I used to be able to type words into my Firefox address bar and it would often go directly to the site I want through Google's "Browse by Name" feature, and give me Google results the rest of the time. Now I see a Verizon search result. How do I get back Google's result?
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anon @ 10th Nov 08:11PM:
Re: Open DNS

I saw that and tried it, but they do exactly the same thing. How do I get Google's "Browse by Name" back?
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pende_tim @ 11th Nov 06:56AM:
Re: How do I fix this?

Yes, How do you enable that? I do seem to recall this working a while ago but have not see it recently now that you mention it.

Tim
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estover @ 11th Nov 08:20PM:
Re: Whats old is new again!

Thanks for the thumb.
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GeekGirl1 @ 12th Nov 10:41PM:
Re: How do I fix this?

Believe it or not, you set your router to "opt-out" of the ad page. More info here: »Since when did Verizon start Advertising on busted URLs?
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anon @ 13th Nov 12:58PM:
FYI

If you run your own DNS server, like I do, you're unaffected. I noticed this behavior recently on my verizon dsl when I had temporarily used my Westell router while doing maintenance on my firewall and I was sure glad to get my firewall back in there. Running pf+altq w/ bind for dns. I have a normal westell modem and a westell wireless router that I use for a backup.

bsd
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TheMadAdmin @ 16th Nov 03:03PM:
Re: Not Liking this

Good point.

You are right applications are expecting the 404.

Link checkers are going to get fooled because nothing will error out.
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anon @ 20th Nov 11:05PM:
Re: Open DNS

I figured this out. Just use 4.2.2.1, 4.2.2.2, etc. as your nameservers. Apparently these are also Verizon, but can be used by anyone, are faster, and give the proper error message? that initiates Google's Browse by Name. So now I can type "something" in the address bar and get a Google search for the word "something", while typing "something awful" in the address bar goes directly to somethingawful.com It does its best to go directly to what I was looking for.
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