Washington Post Kills Major Spam, Child Porn Pit - Investigation leads to ISPs pulling the plug on McColo
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Washington Post Kills Major Spam, Child Porn Pit
Investigation leads to ISPs pulling the plug on McColo
(old news - 11:09AM Wednesday Nov 12 2008)
tags: business · spam · scam
Thanks to Brian Krebs of the Washington Post, McColo Corporation -- a Web hosting company that has emerged as a major U.S. base of operations for a host of international cyber-crime syndicates -- has been yanked offline. Krebs highlights his investigation into the company in both this Post article and over at the Post's Security Fix blog. The company for years has been hosting the master servers for a slew of known criminal botnets, which collectively are responsible for roughly 75% of the world's spam. Officials from McColo did not respond to multiple e-mails, phone calls and instant messages left at the contact points listed on the company's Web site. But within hours of being presented with evidence from the security community about illegal activity coming from McColo's network, the two largest Internet providers for the company decided to pull the plug on McColo late Tuesday. Those two carriers were Global Crossing and Hurricane Electric. "We shut them down," Hurricane tells the Post. "We looked into it a bit, saw the size and scope of the problem [washingtonpost.com was] reporting and said 'Holy cow!' Within the hour we had terminated all of our connections to them." Yeah, holy cow. Apparently we're to believe neither ISP noticed they were hosting a huge cyber-criminal conglomerate and master servers for five massive criminal botnets ("Mega-D," "Srizbi," "Pushdo,""Rustock" and "Warezov,") until a reporter called. Still, score one for the good guys, even if McColo will probably be up and running under a new name in no time. For reference, McColo didn't just host spam botnets, they were hosting scam websites, bogus anti-malware operations, child porn, and child porn payment operations. Which makes you wonder why authorities allowed a known criminal outfit to flourish for so long, only to be toppled by a Post reporter and a phone. Perhaps New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo could learn a thing or two from Krebs about effectively fighting child porn.
Related:- McColo Closure Forces BotNet Shift
- Google #4 On Spamhaus Spam Network List
- Verizon To Finally Crack Down On Spam
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Your Constitutional Right To Spam
- FTC Shuts Down 'Rogue' ISP
- Zer01 Looks Worse The Deeper People Dig
- U.S. Broadband Still Relatively Slow
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DrModem @ 12th Nov 11:25AM:
Take that, scum!
Yea.
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TKJunkMail @ 12th Nov 11:29AM:
Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
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DMNTD @ 12th Nov 11:31AM:
DMNTD
nope, they are not police...deal with it.
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Transmaster @ 12th Nov 11:32AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
unforunately it will be up and running in a week with a new name and new servers. :( Nice hit anyway :)
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RadioDoc @ 12th Nov 11:35AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
You're damned right they looked the other way. People have been reporting this stuff directly to (at least) Hurricane Electric for quite awhile. They certainly knew of any criminal activity and their failure to address it until it was blown up in a major media outlet makes them culpable, especially since HE is not an "ISP" in the retail sense the law anticipates.
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 11:38AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
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TKJunkMail @ 12th Nov 11:42AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
They have been notified for ages. They just made too much money to do anything about it until it made the National press in the form of the Wash Post story. Then the negative PR value MADE them take action. And when notified of problems, they should have started their own investigation and not depend on some reporters to do it for them.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
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SilverSurfer @ 12th Nov 11:42AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
Whatever happened to allegedly small government conservatives who abhor government interference in every little thing? I guess that only applies when it comes to their portfolios and Wall Street. Based on the junk you post here I am very sure that if you had stock in either company, you'd be singing an entirely different tune...one of deregulation instead of accountability.
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Rob @ 12th Nov 11:43AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
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morbo @ 12th Nov 11:51AM:
set who is accountable
it's clear that there is a conflict of interest by hosting companies and internet providers and policing the connections. they make money off of the spammers too, so what is their incentive to police them?
what we need is a clear chain of command for dealing with these problems. dare i say it? a SPAM CZAR! we at least need a new system to quickly identify and shut down spammers. if it needs to be a small and nimble federal government entity with the authority to shut down connections within 2 hours, then so be it. obviously, we need checks and balances so that the power isn't exploited, but there needs to be some type of system that we don't have at this moment.
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woody7 @ 12th Nov 11:53AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
"TK Junk Mail
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed."
--
Here's another one that I kind of agree with....
--
BlooMe
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Tsume @ 12th Nov 12:00PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
ISPs should be free from RESPONSIBILITY unless the law has absolute proof they had knowledge of felonies occuring on their network and took no action in disabling their access and/or reporting them to the authorities.
I really think the way this should work is:
1, ISP receives tones of reports and decides to look into it, finds illegal activity, immidiately cuts them off and alerts authorities OR
2, ISP receives tons of reports, does nothing, the government agency in charge of overseeing them receives reports as well (because people will realize the ISP isn't doing their job), government comes in and orders ISP to shut down access, ISP complies.
Either of those scenarios works, #1 is ideal. What happened here is that the ISP did not want to do their job right away, and #2 didn't occur either because people didn't report it to the authorities, or because the authorities did nothing to get the ISP to cut off access (or maybe they don't have the power to do that, which they should).
The only time the ISP should be punished (besides by the bad PR it receives) is if it directly violates an order of the court or other governing authority.
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 12:02PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
They have been notified for ages. They just made too much money to do anything about it until it made the National press in the form of the Wash Post story. Then the negative PR value MADE them take action. And when notified of problems, they should have started their own investigation and not depend on some reporters to do it for them.
Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions.
If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this.
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MGD @ 12th Nov 12:03PM:
About time !!
Kudos to Brian Krebs,
McColo has been the source of multiple crybercrime activities for years. Back in June they played host for two dozen fraud sites that were part of a massive global Russian / Ukrainian based card fraud operation »Ebook websites, fraud charges, Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto The "Berry" site group, which were uncovered by the folks at »aa419.org targeted hijacked UK card data, and were a sub division of the multi year US Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto fraud operation documented here: »Ebook websites, fraud charges, Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto and is still ongoing.
The aa419.org database lists 40 McColo sites »db.aa419.org/fakebankslist.php?p···rchtype= most associated with this fraud.
Though masquerading as a US based Delaware corporation, McColo is operated and controlled from Russia, only the servers are US based.
MGD
EDIT= added text & link
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 12:05PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Rob :said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
Wow, that is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have seen. I would do the right thing and contact the proper authorities and handle it like someone who cares about the outcome. I am not going to try and battle crime myself nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was.
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jhboricua @ 12th Nov 12:10PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that the DOJ looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on.
There, fixed it for you. The current laws give the DOJ what they need to act on this. If this has been reported for ages, why did the DOJ failed to step in to shut down McColo? If the evidence was so clear, why weren't existing laws used?
Nothing in the existing laws prevents the DOJ from shutting dows these operations.
There's no need to burden ISPs with more RIAA/MPAA friendly and innefective legislation.
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Rob @ 12th Nov 12:15PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :said by Rob :said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
Wow, that is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have seen. I would do the right thing and contact the proper authorities and handle it like someone who cares about the outcome. I am not going to try and battle crime myself nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was.
And what if the authorities did nothing? You would just ignore it?
Just let them continue to do what they do without taking any action?
Where does it become your responsibility? Never?
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SilverSurfer @ 12th Nov 12:17PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Rob :
Where does it become your responsibility? Never?
Most States have laws that punish and/or strongly disincentivize vigilantes. Suggest you become acquainted with yours otherwise you may find yourself sharing a jail cell with the same individual you thought you had a right to enforce the law upon.
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mod_wastrel @ 12th Nov 12:19PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
It's not the responsibility of "carriers" to determine what is and is not criminal activity. Anyone who thinks there is a crime being committed should contact the legal authorities (police, FBI, whatever) and let them make the determination. Technically, carriers should not be monitoring the details of what customers are doing (wire-tapping). Carriers should simply cooperate with authorities, sometimes initiating action when they receive complaints from others, but not acting unilaterally to determine whether crimes are being committed. The authorities may want to allow certain activities to continue briefly so as to collect and trace evidence.
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jhboricua @ 12th Nov 12:19PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
If the evidence is there, why would the authorities ignore it?
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Kearnstd @ 12th Nov 12:22PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
it is not the job of a carrier to police every gigabit. that said if hard evidence is brought to them(and i mean real evidence not the bullshit Un-Evidence the RIAA uses against piracy)then they should act and turn the pipe off. but they should also work at this with law enforcement, cutting the pipe might spook the perps and make them destroy data. cutting the pipe with an FBI sting happening minimizes their chance to destroy the drives.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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anon @ 12th Nov 12:27PM:
won't make a dent
This probably won't even make a dent. The spammers are smart enough to have servers at multiple colos. Getting one of their locations taken down probably just means the other locations take up the slack.
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emptywig @ 12th Nov 12:27PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions.
If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this.
The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.
If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such.
wig
--
Please keep your f---ing religion to yourself.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 12:28PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth
This is one of those things where, taken to an extreme (in either direction) it's a problem. I wouldn't want to make providers responsible for anything customers do. But, they shouldn't be immune from any responsibility when it's obvious they turned a blind eye, and were complicit to some extent.
There are many aspects of the law which involve "what a reasonable person" would be expected to know (do). There would be nothing wrong with holding providers to that standard.
What I want to know is, where was Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)? All we hear from their fans is how wonderful it was for EFF to launch a personal injury lawsuit against telcos. Why didn't EFF file a class action against these parties?
Mark
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blueeyesm @ 12th Nov 12:30PM:
So,...
.. is it possible to find URLs showing the difference in 'net traffic over the period of time before McColo was shut down and after?
I'd be interested to see how much of an improvement it's made.
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Noah Vail @ 12th Nov 12:30PM:
Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way!!
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
I agree, if the issue is so large that the Ops center had to be aware, or we have evidence that they have been notified of a smaller issue.
BTW, this kind of cooperation between criminals and pipe providers has been going on since the beginning.
10 years ago, I would edit the garbage groups out of the Netscape NNTP group lists, for my friends who frequented news groups. The group names were appalling. When I attempted to find out who actually owned the servers that held the material, all trails led to uu.net.
With mods either creating or allowing groups like alt.binaries.beat.babies.to.death to be created; someone there had to know what they were hosting.
I spent over a year trying to get someone, anyone to care. I emailed local and national press, child protection groups, even talked to folks in law enforcement. Nobody thought it worth their time.
I remember one conversation with David Caton, head of the Florida Family Association. I tried to impress on him the value of eliminating child porn hosts. However, he was too laser focused on his campaign against homosexual causes to divert any resources to this cause.
After a year+½ or so, I finally gave up. I guess it wasn't yet fashionable enough to merit any effort.
NV
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 12:33PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Doing the right thing is very subjective in a society that allows for gratuitous violence and sex on the tube 24/7. People that have been trying to do the right thing are lambasted as a neocons. If federal or municiple authorities asked for compliance, then these 2 ISPs should adhere. Otherwise, you may be in a situation where allegations get innocents hurt. Why didn't this clown from the post run this past authorities...you know, the proper chain of command?
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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Matt @ 12th Nov 12:40PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by jhboricua :
If the evidence is there, why would the authorities ignore it?
Some people just want any excuse to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, or at least their warped interpretation of it. So if the authorities don't show up, with a full contingent of SWAT operatives no less, they feel justified in taking action themselves.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 12:44PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
Why didn't this clown from the post run this past authorities...you know, the proper chain of command?
The article ends by saying there is more to come, but he just wanted to get this part of the story out now.
I don't see anything wrong with a reporter contacting potential co-conspirators as part of the story. If he didn't contact them, there would have been nothing on record concerning their position prior to law enforcement action (if/when it occurs).
I also don't see anything wrong with a reporter publishing a story instead of contacting law enforcement (presumably keeping the story secret?). The reporter's has a job to do. Publishing the story is just one of many ways to alert law enforcement (through public pressure).
Mark
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Noah Vail @ 12th Nov 12:45PM:
Hmm. Why Now Brian Krebs?
Brian, crime hosting providers have been the low hanging fruit for a long time. Anybody can locate one, whenever they wish.
Are you new to journalism? I've shoved stuff like this in the faces of journalists before, including ones from your rag. The Post has never cared before.
I see Elliot Spritzer headlining the issue, brought it into style for you. I suppose having other people define your ethics for you is simpler than developing your own. Way to keep up the journalistic tradition.
NV
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 12:51PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
and some people want any excuse to diminish the 2nd ammendment right, or at least their skewed interpretation of it. So if you're a landlord throwing people out on the street because of a false allegation, or an allegation that did not go through the proper channels, be prepared for a full contingent of lawyers to be talking about your case. And when your getting thrown out of your house because of a bogus judgement, what will you be able to do????
Nothing, because you've gotten rid of your 2nd ammendment right.
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 12:51PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Matt :
they feel justified in taking action themselves.
I wouldn't mind seeing a more militant mindset among Americans. We paint ourselves as patriotic, the home of the brave, etc. But, if you travel through other parts of the world, they have a much stronger expression of such traits. For example, in Latin America it's not uncommon to have annual demonstrations, often violent. Or, for labor sectors to shut down the country. Or, to walk through the main airport and find demonstrators disrupting operations (for better working conditions). It's all accepted as part of how society works. That it's better than "staying in line, and waiting for the authorities to take care of something."
Occasionally we read stories about a group of neighbors who beat the heck out of a burglary (or child molestation) suspect before the police arrive. Everyone gets a tingly feeling about that. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some episodes like that involving corporate executives.
Mark
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mrchris @ 12th Nov 12:56PM:
Eh
Now if only EUROPE and ASIA can get their dumb asses (Especially east Europe, Russia, China, South Korea and others) in gear to actually do something like this!
--
»[FS] PC games, music and movies for sale
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 12:58PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Except for the fact that he may have just screwed a pending case. Not to mention there must be proof that these are violations of Global Crossings and Hurricanes policies. I think its hipocritical for people to ask for a form of "pseudo dumb pipe", and then bitch when they see some of the ramifications of those desires.
And is this the same Global Crossing that screwed investors out of 37 billion just 7 years ago?
Hey, I'm all for shuting them down. But only through the proper mechanisms.
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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MyDogHsFleas @ 12th Nov 01:01PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :
The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.
If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such.
This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit.
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 01:04PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
If thats the case (an I do understand the desire), then we should be marching on wall street and dc with pitch forks and torches in a scene reminiscent of Frankenstein.
However, we are and always will be, above that. The minute we're not, then we become the criminals that we abhore!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
reply
MyDogHsFleas @ 12th Nov 01:04PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :said by Matt :
they feel justified in taking action themselves.
I wouldn't mind seeing a more militant mindset among Americans. We paint ourselves as patriotic, the home of the brave, etc. But, if you travel through other parts of the world, they have a much stronger expression of such traits. For example, in Latin America it's not uncommon to have annual demonstrations, often violent. Or, for labor sectors to shut down the country. Or, to walk through the main airport and find demonstrators disrupting operations (for better working conditions). It's all accepted as part of how society works. That it's better than "staying in line, and waiting for the authorities to take care of something."
Occasionally we read stories about a group of neighbors who beat the heck out of a burglary (or child molestation) suspect before the police arrive. Everyone gets a tingly feeling about that. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some episodes like that involving corporate executives.
Are you seriously advocating violent demonstrations as a normal everyday thing, and beatings of corporate executives? Is this troll/flamebait?
If you are being serious (which I doubt), I certainly don't want my country to be lke that.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 01:10PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by MyDogHsFleas :
If you are being serious (which I doubt), I certainly don't want my country to be lke that.
It was just an observation. I like the calm and orderly nature of our society. But, it's contradictory to our gleamy-eyed depiction of ourselves as rebellious, independent, militant. Other countries are far more militant, and encourage militancy. Heck, there are countries in Latin America that *require* voting (under penalty of law). They emphasize participation in the process, and openly allow demonstrations. Not demonstrations like ours, where you need a permit to march, and a safely cordoned zone, at a certain time of day.
For people who take the US founders' rhetoric seriously, the Latin American model is closer to the mark. For example, Jefferson's admonishment that this country should have a revolution every 20 years(?).
Mark
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SilverSurfer @ 12th Nov 01:15PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :
Why didn't EFF file a class action against these parties?
Glad you asked - EFF is the leading civil liberties group defending your rights in the digital world.
To answer your question, had there been a civil liberties cause of action, then the EFF would have responded. But the proliferation of bots/spam/child pr0n is not and never has been a civil rights action.
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emptywig @ 12th Nov 01:15PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by MyDogHsFleas :
This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit.
The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison.
wig
--
Please keep your f---ing religion to yourself.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 01:16PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
If thats the case (an I do understand the desire), then we should be marching on wall street and dc with pitch forks and torches in a scene reminiscent of Frankenstein.
I agree. And, you have to admit, if we validated such "justice" we'd probably see more caution among execuctives (as it pertains to AIG's lavish parties after taxpayer bailout. Or, obscene differences in compensation.).
I'm not saying I'd prefer such a society. But, I'm not sure I prefer a society where it seems like people get away with anything, and have no shame, because the masses don't seem to be ashamed by *anything*.
When I'm in Latin America and see workers lawfully protesting inside the airport (not just silently walking in circles, but making violent, disruptive noise using musical instruments) it makes me wish we were a little less tolerant of things that should make us angry.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 01:19PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by SilverSurfer :
But the proliferation of bots/spam/child pr0n is not and never has been a civil rights action.
I have a right against being infested by spambots. And a right against spam mail. If EFF were truly a defender of rights, they would have filed a class action against these parties.
It would have improved everyone's use of the internet, in practical, tangible ways, than suing telcos.
Mark
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 01:20PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :said by MyDogHsFleas :
If you are being serious (which I doubt), I certainly don't want my country to be lke that.
For people who take the US founders' rhetoric seriously, the Latin American model is closer to the mark. For example, Jefferson's admonishment that this country should have a revolution ever 20 years(?).
Mark
And the purpose of revolting was to keep our government powers in check. My how we've strayed. But many of those rights have also been tweaked towards perfection. But human right violations are an integral part of the latin American model. Are we too supposed to emulate that?
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hottboiinnc @ 12th Nov 01:27PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
And you would want this to happen to your kids: »www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl···07160322
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 01:28PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
But human right violations are an integral part of the latin American model. Are we too supposed to emulate that?
We used to. And it took behavior considered "uppity" by those who liked the status quo. Latin American tolerance (even encouragement) of popular protest is part of preventing such abuses. Silence would likely lead to resurgences of dictatorships.
Like I said. I like our calm, content, orderly society. It has its benefits. But, it has its downside too. Such as abusers who feel there's no limit to popular "norms" (acceptance = validation, etc.).
Mark
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 01:31PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Rob :
And what if the authorities did nothing? You would just ignore it?
Just let them continue to do what they do without taking any action?
Where does it become your responsibility? Never?
If the proper law enforcement agencies decided not to pursue it, I would move to report it to the next layer of enforcement authority. Why would I take the cause up myself?
What would you do? Grab a lynchin' rope and rustle up a posse? - Yeah, sure you would.
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hottboiinnc @ 12th Nov 01:32PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Where is that right stated? i don't remember learning about that in History or Gov't class.
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Jodokast96 @ 12th Nov 01:33PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Ever tried to have someone evicted?
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anon @ 12th Nov 01:53PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Are you saying you want the government to enact laws to "regulate" how a company does business? Isn't that a "liberal" idea?
LOL, in any case, you are correct. :)
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 01:35PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :said by DVOOR8 :
Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions.
If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this.
The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.
If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such.
wig
Actually Einstein, the idea that you should take the law into your own hands is what is ridiculous.
You cant, nor do you have the authority to investigate any illegal activity and have it result in ANYTHING.
Also, tenants have considerable rights and you would find yourself in trouble trying to kick anyone out of anywhere without due process.
I'm sure you have a bit of internet toughness going here but these are the facts.
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Jodokast96 @ 12th Nov 01:35PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :
I have a right against being infested by spambots. And a right against spam mail.
You do?
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 01:37PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :said by S_engineer :
If thats the case (an I do understand the desire), then we should be marching on wall street and dc with pitch forks and torches in a scene reminiscent of Frankenstein.
I agree. And, you have to admit, if we validated such "justice" we'd probably see more caution among execuctives (as it pertains to AIG's lavish parties after taxpayer bailout. Or, obscene differences in compensation.).
I'm not saying I'd prefer such a society. But, I'm not sure I prefer a society where it seems like people get away with anything, and have no shame, because the masses don't seem to be ashamed by *anything*.
When I'm in Latin America and see workers lawfully protesting inside the airport (not just silently walking in circles, but making violent, disruptive noise using musical instruments) it makes me wish we were a little less tolerant of things that should make us angry.
Mark
The validation that you and many others seek won't put the money back in your pocket...however you'd get a pretty good nights sleep. As far as protests, you can see such discourse anywhere that there are collective bargaining agreements left. Unfortunately, theres not too many of those regions left.
For years we've had the "cowboy" attitude as a nation under the Bush administration. The supporters of this plan were labeled as neocons. And all of the hipocrites that blasted gov't for giving the telecoms immunity for doing "the right thing" are in here with the same vigilance as the gov't was at that time.
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kamm @ 12th Nov 01:38PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
It's quite shocking but true: I almost fully agree with TJunk! :hmm:
Really an historic moment...
PS: almost because I'm not sure what he wants under the necessary change - I want them to be proactive too but am not willing to sacrifice one inch free speech for it, that's for sure.
--
[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
[/BQUOTE]
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 01:39PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Jodokast96 :said by amigo_boy :
I have a right against being infested by spambots. And a right against spam mail.
You do?
Yeah, the founding fathers scribbled that on the back of the original Constitution.
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 01:39PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :said by S_engineer :
But human right violations are an integral part of the latin American model. Are we too supposed to emulate that?
We used to. And it took behavior considered "uppity" by those who liked the status quo. Latin American tolerance (even encouragement) of popular protest is part of preventing such abuses. Silence would likely lead to resurgences of dictatorships.
Like I said. I like our calm, content, orderly society. It has its benefits. But, it has its downside too. Such as abusers who feel there's no limit to popular "norms" (acceptance = validation, etc.).
Mark
Mark, if you've traveled as I have, you know it's still the best game in town!
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kamm @ 12th Nov 01:40PM:
Re: Eh
said by mrchris :
Now if only EUROPE and ASIA can get their dumb asses (Especially east Europe, Russia, China, South Korea and others) in gear to actually do something like this!
What an utterly ignorant, dumb comment - EU laws is way more intrusive than US ones already.
--
[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
[/BQUOTE]
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Transmaster @ 12th Nov 01:41PM:
The Future, Maybe?
I don't know how many of you have read William Shatner's Tekwar series. In my opinion this is one of the most prophetic Science fiction series I have ever read. In it the Internet is called the Matrix, sound familiar :) In this series there is a Matrix Police force who patrols the Matrix in it's virtual world. There are also hackers which in this series are called Matrix Riders. I have always felt this series gives a glimpse of the future of the internet.
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
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DVOOR8 @ 12th Nov 01:43PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :said by MyDogHsFleas :
This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit.
The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison.
wig
Boy you guys don't get it huh?
Thats all fine and good but the landlord CAN NOT make the determination, convict anyone, or prove that something illegal has been going on without an official legal conviction. The tenant would still need to found GUILTY of something, and that requites the authorities.
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mlundin @ 12th Nov 01:43PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
I've seen it done first hand. Lawyer makes proper filings for an eviction, people tossed out by cops in about a week (during which they were in jail for armed robbery). Didn't appear too difficult aside from getting a lawyer.
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moonpuppy @ 12th Nov 01:44PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions.
Oh please, ISPs have been getting rid of people who "supposedly" abuse their connections with no proof for years.
:uhh:
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moonpuppy @ 12th Nov 01:52PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :
For example, in Latin America it's not uncommon to have annual demonstrations, often violent. Or, for labor sectors to shut down the country. Or, to walk through the main airport and find demonstrators disrupting operations (for better working conditions). It's all accepted as part of how society works. That it's better than "staying in line, and waiting for the authorities to take care of something."
For someone who has seen those demonstrations first hand, your entire statement speaks volumes of how ignorant you really are.
Those demonstrations do NOTHING but give the governments the excuse to crack down and beat the crap out of protesters and rarely help the situation.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 01:54PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by hottboiinnc :
Where is that right stated? i don't remember learning about that in History or Gov't class.
Glad you asked. See the following:
said by US Supreme Court :
Both the absoluteness of the citizen's right under Sect. 4009 and its finality are essential; what may not be provocative to one person may well be to another. In operative effect THE POWER OF THE HOUSEHOLDER UNDER THE STATUTE IS UNLIMITED; HE MAY PROHIBIT THE MAILING OF A DRY GOODS CATALOG because he objects to the contents or indeed the text of the language touting the merchandise.[1]
As a matter of background, this case concerned 39 USC 3008 [2]. Congress enacted this law primarily as a protection against smut mail. It placed sole discretion of what is objectionable in the hands of the receiver. The mass-mailing industry challenged the law arguing it infringed their constitutional right to communicate with anyone. That it was too broad and would eliminate even non-smut mailings.
The court disagreed, using such remarks as:
said by US Supreme Court :
We therefore categorically reject the argument that a vendor has a right, under the Constitution or otherwise, to send unwanted material into the home of another. If this prohibition operates to impede the flow of even valid ideas, the answer is that no one has a right to press even "good" ideas on an unwilling recipient.[3]
Therefore, you have what the court deemed "unreviewable discretion" in determining which mail can be prohibited.[4]
For this reason, Postal Form 1500 exists.[5] This form is an Application for Prohibitory Order. The postal equivalent to a restraining order. You are allowed to file it for *any* mailing. This is recognized by the Postal Service's own procedures.[6]
Of course, it's my contention that you should have learned about this from the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) if they truly concern themselves with your rights.
Mark
=== References ===
[1] Rowan, DBA American Book Service, et al. V. United States Post Office Department, et al. 397 U.S. 728, 737, emphasis added. (»supreme.justia.com/us/397/728/case.html#737).
[2] 39 USC Sect. 3008 (»www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/39/3008.shtml), previously codified as Sect. 4009
[3] Supra note 1, p. 738. (»supreme.justia.com/us/397/728/case.html#738). See also:
said by US Supreme Court :
Today's merchandising methods, the plethora of mass mailings subsidized by low postal rates, and the growth of the sale of large mailing lists as an industry, in itself, have changed the mailman from a carrier of primarily private communications, as he was in a more leisurely day, and have made him an adjunct of the mass mailer who sends unsolicited and often unwanted mail into every home. ... whether measured by pieces or pounds, Everyman's mail today is made up overwhelmingly of material he did not seek from persons he does not know. And, all too often, it is matter he finds offensive.
P. 736. (»supreme.justia.com/us/397/728/case.html#736).
[4] Ibid., p. 739, footnote 6. (»supreme.justia.com/us/397/728/case.html#F6). See also:
said by US Supreme Court :
The section was intended to allow the addressee COMPLETE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION in electing whether or not he desired to receive further material from a particular sender.
P. 734, emphasis added. (»supreme.justia.com/us/397/728/case.html#734).
[5] »www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1500.pdf
[6]
said by US Postal Service :
-- The prohibitory order. This order aids in protecting customers from receiving pandering advertisements through the mail. An addressee may obtain a prohibitory order against the mailer of an advertisement that THE ADDRESSEE DETERMINES, IN HIS OR HER SOLE DISCRETION, to be offering matter for sale that is erotically arousing or sexually provocative, as defined in title 39, United States Code, 3008. POSTMASTERS MAY NOT REFUSE TO ACCEPT A FORM 1500 because the advertisement in question does not appear to be sexually oriented. Only the addressee may make that determination. The order prohibits the mailer from sending any further mail to the applicant (and his or her eligible minor children included in the application), effective on the 30th calendar day after the mailer receives the order.
Postal Bulletin PB 21977, July 30, 1998, p. 13, emphasis added. (»www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/bulletin/1···1977.pdf).
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DemonicLlama @ 12th Nov 01:55PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
If the authorities did nothing, the wash post would print the story.....right after more election coverage.
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Jodokast96 @ 12th Nov 01:58PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Ah, them not having the right to send it is not the same as you having the right to not have it sent.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:00PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
Unfortunately, theres not too many of those regions left.
That's my only point. "Calm, orderly, content and knowing one's place" has it's merits. But, it has its downside too. One could say we, collectively will tolerate a lot more behavior which would have been considered outrageous decades ago. We'd still be under British rule if we followed today's sense of playing nicely.
I don't know where the balance should be. But, when exposed to other cultures, I often feel we've gone too far toward civility and "herd" behavior. But, I agree with others that daily street vengeance wouldn't be pleasant either.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:03PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
if you've traveled as I have, you know it's still the best game in town!
Better in some ways. Not in others. This shouldn't have to boil down to "love it, or leave it." There should be room to discuss the pros and cons of how our country has matured. Maturing is not always good. If you're older, I'm sure you can think of a few examples of what I mean.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:07PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by moonpuppy :
Those demonstrations do NOTHING but give the governments the excuse to crack down and beat the crap out of protesters and rarely help the situation.
But, your contention is that, if commoners were less "uppity" (stayed home, engaged in calm discourse), things would be better. That's largely how dictatorships arose in the 70s - 80s (with US assistance, I might add).
Your argument could have (and was) applied to the US founders too.
Mark
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Jodokast96 @ 12th Nov 02:12PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Several things come into play there though. The first is most likely a default judgement being issued since the individual was not present at the hearing. If someone offers up a defense, it usually lengthens the process significantly. Second, without a clear violation of the lease, notice usually has to be given well in advance, 30-60 days. Third, a good evidence of a lease violation must be presented.
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 02:16PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
theres always room for improvement. And as a maturing adult, I certainly feel the pain. One of the most troublesome aspects that has formed in recent years is the merely competitive nature of business morphing into the crisis model thats now in place. This is not only in business, but its in gov't at every level. This marketing technique is used to create shortfalls in budgets, but also to shape our policies, and recently used with several presidential candidates. But you can't keep looking at what the "Joneses" across the borders have, because behind close doors, they have plenty of their own grief!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:16PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Jodokast96 :
Ah, them not having the right to send it is not the same as you having the right to not have it sent.
Did you read what I wrote? You have the right to file Form 1500, which can lead to law enforcement action if the sender continues to mail you.
At a bare minimum you could sue the sender in your jurisdiction's Small Claims court, probably receiving a default judgment (because the offender wouldn't travel to defend themselves against what is indefensible.). After you have a few of those judgments, sell them to collection agencies for 50 cents on the dollar.
Mark
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utahluge @ 12th Nov 02:22PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Rob :
If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:24PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
But you can't keep looking at what the "Joneses" across the borders have, because behind close doors, they have plenty of their own grief!
I agree they have their own grief. But, that shouldn't mean we can't consider what's possibly better.
Many of our problems seem to be attributable to apathy, or contentedness, or how we've written into law how every little thing should work (instead of encouraging the use of common sense, however imperfect that is in daily operation).
For example, I think there's something to be said for forcing all eligible adults to vote (done in some Latin American countries) as a way to keep the population engaged and reminded of their *duty* to participate, rather than expect someone else to fix problems. It has its downside too. (I'm not sure I'd want people voting who don't want to vote.) But, it's at least a step toward addressing a problem which I don't see us even trying to.
Mark
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knightmb @ 12th Nov 02:27PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by mlundin :
I've seen it done first hand. Lawyer makes proper filings for an eviction, people tossed out by cops in about a week (during which they were in jail for armed robbery). Didn't appear too difficult aside from getting a lawyer.
I don't know what state you live in, but that's totally false. First you file for eviction, then wait a while, go to court, the judge decides, gives them a max of 10 days to comply, then you can get the police to remove them. You don't need a lawyer to do this, anyone can (I have before) and even then you must have a good reason to tell the judge. In my case, it was lack of payment for the home, but a reason like "I think they are doing something illegal" would just be another court case and more time until the next trial to present your evidence before evicting them on top of another 10 days.
So I call BS on that.
--
Fight NebuAD and the like:
Click Here to pollute their data
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 02:27PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
You know, your vigilance gives support to telecom immunity!
Same premise, the ends justifying the means.
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dynodb @ 12th Nov 02:31PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by SilverSurfer :said by TKJunkMail :
If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
Whatever happened to allegedly small government
conservatives who abhor government interference in every little thing? I guess that only applies when it comes to their portfolios and Wall Street. Based on the junk you post here I am very sure that if you had stock in either company, you'd be singing an entirely different tune...one of deregulation instead of accountability.
As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie.
Along with that is the belief that the government should be strong and effective in areas where it has an undeniably legitimate role- in this case law enforcement.
Here the ISP wasn't the one engaging in illegal activity, it was the the host. While they shouldn't be held responsible for every bit of illegal activity they weren't directly involved in, there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 02:36PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by dynodb :
As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie.
I think that's a very fair and accurate description which even liberals would agree with. The problem is in the definition of "counterproductive." It almost always boils down to the base human condition of "who's ox is being gored."
It's just that liberals don't try to dress it up in fancy terms about "free markets" and "being principled." :)
Mark
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Karl Bode @ 12th Nov 02:37PM:
Re: So,...
Wheee!
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 02:45PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Let me ask you something rhetorically, and I don't mean to demean. Are you raising a family? Do you have several jobs?
The reason why I ask because I'm not sure people without kids understand the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy because you don't have time to monitor the representative you've elected in your particular corner of the earth. I think this is the case with most working adults. It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation. And what good is legislation if you're going to bypass it with a lynch mob mentality.
In addition, forcing an electorate would only fuel marketing to the ignorant.
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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Skippy25 @ 12th Nov 02:47PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
You are obviously not a landlord then because the rights and obligations of such do not extend to you investigating the activities of a tenant nor can you just up and throw someone out. State laws vary obviously, but for the most part evicting someone isnt done easily one afternoon and is generally a pretty long road that is in favor of the tenant, not the landlord.
In this case if the ISP's were aware of it then they should not have changed anything and gotten the proper authorities involved to investigate and collect evidence so the owners can be convicted. Otherwise they are simply going to go find another host and the process starts all over.
During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so.
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KrK @ 12th Nov 02:52PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
There's no need to hold them responsible for the actions of their users--- just hold them responsible for their own actions (or lack thereof.)
The question really should be have they been informed and/or aware of the sites/nets/spam/operations.
I seriously doubt that they have received no complaints from victims, law enforcement, other ISP's, security and internet watchdog organizations, etc etc
So in all likely hood they were aware. In which case, you have to wonder if they aren't in some way complicit or liable in an enabling or accomplice role. I think some very hard questions should be being asked of these companies--- perhaps by the FBI, don't you think?
If they truly knew nothing, then again that begs the question of how they could possibly not know--- are they seriously incompetent at managing their network?
My guess is this was about the money. In which case, they should (rightly so) be in some deep trouble.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK @ 12th Nov 02:53PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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Matt @ 12th Nov 02:57PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by KrK :said by DVOOR8 :
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.
I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often.
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RadioDoc @ 12th Nov 02:57PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
This is pretty much the situation here, especially considering the evidence of illegal activity was in the open, accessible from the Internet and available for all to see. In most cases such inaction would result in a service provider (in this case the ISPs) being held accountable as accessories to a felony if they knew the felonious activity was occurring and did nothing about it because it would cut off a revenue stream.
This is not about censorship or Second Amendment rights. Hosting services are not real estate leases and as service contracts generally have provisions which allow the provider to cut off services in light of blatant illegal activity. The servers at McColo were unambiguously hosting illegal activity and the upstreams knew it. Pretty much a closed case.
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Laughing Man @ 12th Nov 03:07PM:
Re: So,...
That's quite a nice drop. Thanks for the pic Karl.
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moonpuppy @ 12th Nov 03:07PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :
But, your contention is that, if commoners were less "uppity" (stayed home, engaged in calm discourse), things would be better. That's largely how dictatorships arose in the 70s - 80s (with US assistance, I might add).
Your argument could have (and was) applied to the US founders too.
Mark
Not my contention at all.
The fact is the more violent a crowd becomes, the easier it is for police and the military to justify their actions whether it be tear gas, attack dogs, water cannons or bullets (rubber and real.)
The second a crowd turns from peaceful protests to rioting the tide of public opinion turns away from them.
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Xizer @ 12th Nov 03:07PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
*punches wall, is republican, is 300 pounds*
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bent @ 12th Nov 03:15PM:
Re: So,...
Damn. It looks like close to half the reported spam was coming from this host.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 03:18PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy
I agree to some extent. But, I'm not sure how many people merely don't have time as opposed to being caught up in making the payments for their new all-wheel-drive, armor-laden SUV (purchased every 2 years). Or, their time-share condos. Or, the latest Wii game. Or, downloading all the "free" music they can find on the net.
Sometimes I think apathy translates more into contentedness. I think most people are like the hoard shown in the movie The Matrix. Plugged in, all their bodily functions performed for them, and slowly slipping into uselessness as a consumer.
They may occasionally express an opinion about current affairs, stopped in mid-sentence with "oooh, is that the new Blackberry? (salivation)"
said by S_engineer :
It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation.
That's the rub, isn't it? How does something carry the weight of a duty if it's not enforced? We've lost a great deal in this regard. The jury was intended to be a fourth branch of government. Where individuals could essentially veto a law (nullification). Today, most good citizens would be as horrified by that idea as they would be by violent protests (or even horn-blowing labor strikers in the middle of an airport). They'd see it as "anarchy."
The same thing with the militia. It was intended to give the people the ability, working within a framework of government (a state militia), the power to *choose* to oppose government. It's no surprise that the militia's disappearance began in the 1880s through 1930s, as there were instances where the militia was called out to put down a labor strike, and instead defended the strikers.
Both of those institutions were originally compelled. (The jury still is, but is typically instructed that it only has the power to judge the facts of the case, not the law itself.).
The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic. I at least feel a sense of wishing we were a little more like Latin American countries when I see students and the police squaring off for their annual violent protest (an eerie sense of the casualness of a re-enactment, but with real bullets). Or, 20 protestors in the airport raising heck (legally, as a recognized and encouraged act). Something about the passion at least. And the respect for passion as a part of civil life.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 03:28PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by moonpuppy :
The second a crowd turns from peaceful protests to rioting the tide of public opinion turns away from them.
I don't disagree with that, as far as it goes. It's the old adage that the definition of a terrorist or patriot depends on who won (and, by extension, how popular the rebellion was). Just a few years after the American Revolution some whiskey makers felt put upon by taxation. Using the same rhetoric of the founders just a decade earlier they rebelled in what came to be called Shay's Rebellion.
The public was horrified. It was the leading cause for calls to abandon the relatively libertarian Articles of Confederation for the Federal Constitution. Backers of the AoC defended (or at least poo-pooed) Shay and his men. But, their side lost. We ended up with a relatively colossal government from the *very* same people who used Shay's arguments against the British.
OTOH, if nobody ever tests popularity (or even encouraged to discuss it, and consider their right to test it) you end up with a populace who is largely apathetic, disengaged, content.
If we applied the same mindset which pervades our society today (you have to play by the rules) we wouldn't have had the original Revolution. However, that doesn't mean I want to see anarchy, or every nutjob blowing up federal buildings. Just saying there's a certain level of passion and critical thought that we've lost. (And, I see expressed in countries we tend to look down upon.).
Mark
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 04:02PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by amigo_boy :said by S_engineer :
the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy
The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic.
Mark
Getting back what we would lost would mean all the cards would have to be laid out. No circumventing by people with their own greed or agendas. Complicating this mess are the globalization factors that continue to erode our manufacturing base and our sovereignty.
I think about how my parents went through years of the great depression. They had the tenacity to tough it out. The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were?
If we're not, we're in trouble!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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dynodb @ 12th Nov 04:58PM:
Re: set who is accountable
said by morbo :
what we need is a clear chain of command for dealing with these problems. dare i say it? a SPAM CZAR! we at least need a new system to quickly identify and shut down spammers. if it needs to be a small and nimble federal government entity with the authority to shut down connections within 2 hours, then so be it.
There is no such thing as a small and nimble federal government entity.
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hottboiinnc @ 12th Nov 05:14PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
but that does not mean E-Mail. Postal mail and email are two different things. And as we seen here before from one other state not too long ago it is a persons right to send SPAM in one state. Right to free speech.
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blueeyesm @ 12th Nov 05:21PM:
Re: So,...
holy crap!
Thanks Karl, appreciate it.
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 05:25PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were? If we're not, we're in trouble!
It sounds like you might be advocating a big-bang approach. The system will eventually melt down, and that's when people will be confronted with reality, forced into a crash-course in civic virtue (making choices based upon the "common good" rather than private interest).
That's one way. Some progressives argue that there are ways to re-instill a form of civic republicanism in the populace. From neighborhood watch groups that are empowered to do more than merely hide behind the curtain as they call 911, to "workplace democracy."
The latter is interesting to me because the Founders believed in civic republicanism. An ideology which was based upon ever-expanding frontiers. Where every citizen had the (compelled) duty to participate in government for the common good, and their participation was backed by the independence to retreat to his lands and be self-sufficient, needing no government.
By the standards of civic republicanism we've become the equivalent of share croppers. Working a 9-5 job with no ownership interest. No frontiers that we can retreat to.
The idea of workplace democracy would be to give individuals greater ownership and responsibility in their otherwise "at will" jobs. Intrusive upon business. But, more cooperative than the antagonistic relationship of labor unions versus "get what you can" management.
The idea being, there may be ways to reinstill elements behind civic virtue (individual emphasis on common good as a means to satisfy their own self-interest) without going all the way to an abrupt meltdown with a society that is "palsied" (from the founders viewpoint).
Civic republicanism is actually an interesting mix (or contradiction) of socialism and libertarianism. An interesting play between the liberties of the individual being foremost, but an emphasis upon the individual's dependence upon a virtuous government to recognize and protect those liberties. And, closing the circle, the individual's duty to ensure a virtuous government; and a government beind defined as one which compels individuals to participate and be virtuous.
Mark
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 05:29PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by hottboiinnc :
but that does not mean E-Mail.
I agree. But, I didn't say email. What I said is, if the EFF is going to sue telcos (when the law specifically grants telcos immunity when participating with the executive branch), why wouldn't they sue spammers when we already have a Supreme Court ruling from 1970 which *screams* applicability to the electronic age?
It would certainly have much more practical and tangible effect than nebulous damages of my email being *lawfully* snooped.
Mark
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hacker90 @ 12th Nov 05:30PM:
Re: Eh
I don't see them taking down a number of child porn sites based in Europe. Especially in Russia where a HUGE one exists. Been around I think for at least 5 years and going.
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jay_rm @ 12th Nov 05:40PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by DVOOR8 :
...nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was.
Bingo - we have a winner !
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !'
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Smith6612 @ 12th Nov 06:05PM:
Re: So,...
Wow. This happened and look at that traffic go down :D
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nitzan @ 12th Nov 06:09PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by TKJunkMail :
The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse.
If they were notified of abuse and didn't act on it, that's another story and they should be investigated. However ISPs (and other forms of carriers) have no way to control what their users do - and they shouldn't anyway!
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 06:18PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
I wouldn't mind the big band approach in the context of finding out the true magnitude of the problems that we face. Each "band-member" will probably bring his/her own horrific baggage. This could help us to avoid the band-aid approach we seem to be taking now, and enact substantively changes proactively rather than seeing the system break as a whole.
Civic duty is an obligation, but it should not be mandated. This usually happens when people become adults. I believe Maslow was correct with his hierarchy of needs, but unfortunately Maslow isn't being properly taught in the classroom. Furthermore, what happens when you reach the top (this is the point when your giving back) and the cushion that provided your kindness gets wiped out?
And just how do you teach obligations to the Jerry Springer/Maury Povich generation ?
Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh*
I'll continue to do my part
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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SilverSurfer @ 12th Nov 06:23PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by dynodb :
... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.
Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy?
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dynodb @ 12th Nov 07:03PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by SilverSurfer :said by dynodb :
... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.
Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument
isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy?
You're suggesting that the host wasn't breaking the law??? It's been pretty well established that they were.
The question is, did the ISP know, should they have reasonably known, and should they be able to turn a blind eye to it?
An analogy- you rent a house to someone dealing drugs out of it. If you had no knowledge or reason to know they were doing so, you committed no crime. If on the other hand you continued to rent the house to the drug dealers knowing they rented the house for the purpose of dealing drugs, you could be prosecuted as a co-conspirator benefitting from a criminal enterprise.
Again- it would be unreasonable to expect an ISP to police their customers for any and all possible infractions, but for a continuting operation as large as this one has to question whether they knowingly allowed this to go on in in the name of profit.
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dentman42 @ 12th Nov 07:11PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
and some people want any excuse to diminish the 2nd ammendment right, or at least their skewed interpretation of it. So if you're a landlord throwing people out on the street because of a false allegation, or an allegation that did not go through the proper channels, be prepared for a full contingent of lawyers to be talking about your case. And when your getting thrown out of your house because of a bogus judgement, what will you be able to do????
Nothing, because you've gotten rid of your 2nd ammendment right.
And soon after, there goes the first ammendment rights followed by the other 8 (for starters).
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amigo_boy @ 12th Nov 07:45PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by S_engineer :
Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh*
That could be true. But, historically, a big-bang approach to shocking a "palsied" public (the founders' terminology) into stoic, rugged individualists balancing their self-interest with a "common good" hasn't been very realistic either. When a republic reaches the point (I believe) ours has, it's usually ripe for a demagogic populist.
Mark
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Kearnstd @ 12th Nov 07:50PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Matt :said by KrK :said by DVOOR8 :
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.
I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often.
well if it didnt happen then every local TV station wouldnt need their "I-Team". just sad that it takes the threat of the media beaming it nationwide via satellite to get action.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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S_engineer @ 12th Nov 08:07PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
True, but the question is now the populist won, what policies (for lack of better term) is he going to enact to shape our society in a way that makes the population know that they have a constitutional role in the governing process. I think we're both trying to obtain alot of the same goals. You write well; it gives plenty of credence to your position. Continue non-repentant with your positions. It gives the opposition food for thought. Whether or not they digest it is yet to be seen. I enjoyed the discussion.
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress
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morbo @ 12th Nov 08:54PM:
Re: set who is accountable
what do you suggest then? the current situation is untenable.
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RickNY @ 12th Nov 10:07PM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :
The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.
If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such.
If you tried that in New York, not only will a judge restore possession of the premises back to the tenant, but you as the landlord, would then be accountable for treble damages to the tenant for any losses he/she may incur as a result of an eviction that was done without a court order.
For what its worth, it takes anywhere from 3-6 months to evict someone in New York -- with the shorter cases involving tenants that have already vacated the premises (in which case the landlord still needs to receive the eviction order before he can make the property available for renting to a new tenant).
With that being said, I know a few people that act as landlords of their property.. Its very hard to get good tenants, and if you end up stuck with a real scumbag in your property, you could end up losing quite a bit of money..
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McLovin @ 13th Nov 12:18AM:
Re: So,...
said by bent :Damn. It looks like close to half the reported spam was coming from this host.
Same here on our end. I'll see if we can get a graph generated, but our spam filter went from 70,000 messages per hour, to around 10,000 in a matter of a minute or two after this...
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:16AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by RadioDoc :
You're damned right they looked the other way. People have been reporting this stuff directly to (at least) Hurricane Electric for quite awhile. They certainly knew of any criminal activity and their failure to address it until it was blown up in a major media outlet makes them culpable, especially since HE is not an "ISP" in the retail sense the law anticipates.
Its not a backbone ISP's right to regulate content. If we had backbones disconnecting ISPs on a daily basis for tiny disputes, there would be no internet. What if my cousin ripped me off, can I call Verizon and tell them to shut off landline service to my cousin because I say he defrauded me?
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:19AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :
The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
But the police aren't here. Only a court can make the declaration the illegal activity was done for the purpose of the lease, not you. McColo has excellent grounds to sue if they are innocent (probably not).
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:27AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
It depends on state. On some, by just filing meaningless appeals you can extend it to 6 months before the eviction crew comes. In others, there is no due process, 1 day after the rent is due you file papers, 2-3 days later illegal occupation notice is served, and eviction crew can come whenever they want (when confirmation that the illegal occupation notice was served). The eviction date itself is never told to the occupant. So from 1 day late on the rent, by the end of the month you can have a new tenent in there. BTW, all you belongings go on the street.
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:31AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Skippy25 :
During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so.
Would the city water company be held responsible for providing city water to a chemical manufacturer that does environmental pollution into their backlot if some hippies told the city water company that the chemical manufacturer is using the water for illegal purposes?
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:40AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by Rob :
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
I should come tell you that my neighbors who I hate have a child brothel in their house. I'll love to see the carnage you do and the cops storming the house while your killing the occupants of that house. :-D perfect way to get rid of the neighbors, and to give a sob story about a lone rampaging psychopath attacking the neighborhood to the local TV newsvans
You responsibility is to tell the cops, and thats it. If the cops don't want to do anything about it. Tough luck. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_···immunity
Even if the cops take 3 hours to show up to a group of serial killers executing your entire extended family during thanksgiving, there is nothing you can do (but since this is your residence, you can take a shotgun and deal with it yourself »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine this doesn't apply to property you rent out, or backbone/consumer ISPs).
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:51AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by jhboricua :
If the evidence is there, why would the authorities ignore it?
They don't have to care unless the mass media PR will fire the police chief. Unless there an ambulance is being requested the chances of them showing up is related to how many hours since the last donut break.
NYC, 20 minutes to show upto a high hobo who broke through a front window of a store and was bleeding, ambulance crew couldn't do anything because of weapons check guidelines.
NYC, 45 minutes to show up to 2 thugs against a taxi driver who wouldn't pay. Taxi driver got fucked up and bleeding eventually, but not robbed. Taxi driver drove away injured before cops showed up (30 mins from starting point).
NYC, 25 minutes, neighbor having extended family party turned ugly after too much tequila.
NYC, 10 minutes, ex-employee takes a Uzi to a Radioshack and then goes shooting at rush hour lines of people waiting for buses.
Othercases, 911 wants a 20 minute phone interview while there is a gangfight going on before they will send someone, yes, they said they will only send someone after I give them a testimony. This wasn't NYC but a suburb.
Time for the cops to held legally responsible for not showing up, or time for Texas self defense rights/Texas gun laws nationally. You don't mess with random people since you know you will get shot by grandma.
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws and cops that never show up will have them.
Unless its MWW/ChildS or a corpse, they will take their sweet time in showing up. Ambulances and fire dept are 10x faster.
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 01:59AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
And mainstream media never ever questions the actions of the police. I guess even MWW/ChildS won't make the media question the police.
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 02:17AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by nitzan :
Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse.
Well what is abuse? What do you do when there is activity that is illegal in your jurisdiction coming from Russia or Romania? Disconnect Russia or Romania's internet connection?
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patcat88 @ 13th Nov 02:23AM:
Re: Eh
said by kamm :said by mrchris :
Now if only EUROPE and ASIA can get their dumb asses (Especially east Europe, Russia, China, South Korea and others) in gear to actually do something like this!
What an utterly ignorant, dumb comment - EU laws is way more intrusive than US ones already.
Russia's wiretapping laws, um, *rights are much hire than the EU. Russia's FBI has no due process, no limitations, no cause. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM Yet how much spam and child pornography comes out of those IP ranges?!?!??
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kruser @ 13th Nov 02:56AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by emptywig :said by MyDogHsFleas :
This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit.
The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison.
wig
Who are you to say the activity was illegal? Are you the police? No, I did not think so.
I am a tenant in a fairly large apartment complex and it is usually quiet and peaceful.
However, a year or two back a female moved in and she was obviously dealing drugs from her apartment or she was a crack whore. Not sure but anyhow, about a week or two after she moved in the traffic in and out of the place picked up highly. We went from maybe four cars per hour to 20 cars per hour. The extra 16 cars were all traffic for her apartment. They were white and black males mostly and would stay for under 5 minutes while some would stay for longer and eventually a few would stay for days.
It was then that I said something as the guys coming over were badly dressed and looked like they had been up for days.
So the manager made note of my complaint and watched the traffic and verified that I was correct. She could not do anything however but the police were called and they started tracking the vehicles that came and went. This took about two months and they finally busted someone going in or out of her apartment and that bust activated the clause like yours that says you cannot use the apartment for illegal activities. Once that took place then the complex sent her a certified letter stating she had 30 days to vacate. She did but I've seen many that did not and the sheriff had to come in and throw them out.
So if you are really a landlord then you are doing illegal actions but I suspect you are not a landlord.
You sound like the guy down here that says he will throw you out if you put up a satellite dish on his property even though it is your area. The federal government gives you the right as a tenant to put up a dish so long as it is an exclusive use area of your rented apartment. So if you have say a balcony exclusive to you that faces south then you can put a dish on it regardless of what the lease papers say. It's called the OTARD law.
Sorry to be off topic here but this guy needs to learn in my book.
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anon @ 13th Nov 08:15AM:
Apt. analogy makes me laugh.
The apartment/eviction analogy makes me laugh.
First off the guy who says he's a landlord and would go in
with a bat and evict someone for illegal activity would
probably get his head blown off. Cops are there for a reason.
What is the host provider supposed to do? Go to the place
their customer is and bash all the servers hosting the child
porn garbage? I can see many laws broken there by the host
provider, trespassing, willful destruction of property,
and I'm sure a good lawyer could find plenty more.
I look at it from this point of view:
I pay my phone bill, I pay my ISP bill and am provided
services. What right does a spammer or telemarketer have
to use my phone or ISP to market to me? Their right to
spam/market to me ends with my right to privacy.
Now, read very very carefully.
ISP's and host providers do not regulate the content
moving on their networks. Read that again. If you don't
understand it, read it a third time.
The only reason an ISP would pull the plug is if the bill
isn't paid. It's not their job to regulate what goes over
their network. To them, data is data, whether it's a jpeg
of Aunt Martha, or a song from your kid's garage band.
They're paid to provide the connection that allows you to
move data from one machine to another. That's it.
That would be like your hard drive not allowing you to save
naked pics of your wife, girlfriend, boyfriend or whatever
because of the content. Ridiculous notion. The hard drive
is a machine that does not judge, or make decisions.
It's job is to save and retrieve data. Sounds similar to
the ISP and hosting providers. They're paid to move data,
no matter what it is. Law enforcement can't just go in
either. A court order is needed, so in order to satisfy
the court, law enforcement CAN investigate as they legally
have the power to do so.
Now, read very very carefully again.
There is no higher court than the court of public opinion.
You can yell "this isp or hosting provider is hosting
child porn", and even if it were so, they could still sue
you for slander and defamation of character and possibly
loss of revenue (dunno, I'm no lawyer).
I can say, any ISP that wishes to sniff my traffic will never
ever get my money. I pay them to move traffic, that's it.
Be it an MSN video chat with my mom, or my latest pictures
of snow in the mountains. They're paid to move my data
and that's it.
So, back to the court of public opinion, would you do
business with a company that regularly cheats its customers?
Didn't think so. If law enforcement comes to a hosting
provider and says, take this site down, it has bad stuff
on it, the ISP can legally tell them no. However, if
law enforcement comes to them with a court order ordering
them to take this site down, and the ISP does not comply,
then the ISP can be found guilty of aiding and abetting.
(Any lawyers here know about this?)
It's sad but true, we live in a society where you can be
sued just for looking at someone the "wrong way".
For many years I've said that email protocols need to be
redesigned so that only people in your addressbook can
send you mail, and all mail is blocked by default.
Too bad the opposite is true, all email comes in except
what you block.
Another analogy is the postal service.
If you pay to send me mail, they have to put all the ads
and flyers in my mailbox even if I don't want them.
However, I pay for my phoneline, and my ISP and no spammer
has the right to use what I pay for to market to me.
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--Central Control! D-Dial #49
reply
Noah Vail @ 13th Nov 09:45AM:
Re: Apt. analogy makes me laugh.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
What is the host provider supposed to do? Go to the place their customer is and bash all the servers hosting the child porn garbage?
Actually the recommended response is for the ISP to stop offering their services to the offender. I suppose all that other irrelevant stuff was fun for you to write, though.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Now, read (my blips) very very carefully.
ISP's and host providers do not regulate the content
moving on their networks. Read that again. If you don't
understand it, read it a third time.
(I bet you had fun writing that one too.)
Reading that 3x is a lot like peeling the same orange 3 times. Somehow, it just never turns into an apple.
Internet Service Providing isn't HillaryCare. An ISProvider isn't obligated by law to provide services against their will.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
The only reason an ISP would pull the plug is if the bill isn't paid.
Perhaps that would be your mentality if you were an ISP.
Most folks in this forum would refuse to accept money for the cause of hosting k-porn. But again, we're not you.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
It's not their job to regulate what goes over their network. To them, data is data, whether it's a jpeg of Aunt Martha, or a song from your kid's garage band.
They're paid to provide the connection that allows you to
move data from one machine to another. That's it.
Or they could not get paid for not providing the mechanisms for spam and child pornography. I know you're struggling with this, but try to stay with me.
It really is true. There are some folks who manage to eek out a living, without aiding spammers and k-porn barons.
You could be one of them, all you have to do is to believe.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
That would be like your hard drive not allowing you to save naked pics of your wife, girlfriend, boyfriend or whatever because of the content. Ridiculous notion.
Actually it would be like an auto leasing company
choosing to stop doing business
with a client that depends on those leased vehicles,
to smuggle in children for his sex trade.
For most of us,
the loss of income would be worth it
to not be a part
of something so profoundly evil.
But that's just the majority of humanity. I understand you have your own creative style of logic.
You seem to object to any interference with the flow of data. It doesn't matter how many thousands of human beings are utterly ruined by the monsters you enable through your ideology.
NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd.
reply
birdfeedr @ 13th Nov 10:46AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by utahluge :said by Rob :
If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail.
Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police.
Not too smart, in my view.
C'mon people, surely you're not all as dense you seem to be. There's lots of ways to get authorities involved without getting caught in the middle. Hell, call your local TV station. They'd love stories on "kiddie porn right under your noses. Film at 11."
Call the local equivalent of DCYF. There's plenty of ways to allege something without coming right out and saying it. Talk blonde with big hair and a Cranston accent.
Ok, that last part is a Rhode Island euphemism. Ya gotta be there. :D
reply
amigo_boy @ 13th Nov 10:57AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
said by birdfeedr :
Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police. Not too smart, in my view.
There are cases where well-intentioned people bought dope, called the police to give it to them, and report who the seller was. The caller went to jail for buying and possessing dope.
The last thing I would do is visit kid porn sites so I could video tape them as evidence. Not unless I was part of a watchdog group recognized by the police.
Mark
reply
utahluge @ 13th Nov 10:59AM:
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
Depends on where you film from. Obviously your not going to be in the same room. Plus, just film the house number and then snail-mail a CD to the police department. Be anonymous.
reply
anon @ 14th Nov 10:05AM:
Re: Apt. analogy makes me laugh.
>Actually the recommended response is for the ISP to stop >offering their services to the offender. I suppose all >that other irrelevant stuff was fun for you to write, >though.
If the ISP becomes aware of it, of course.
An ISP should always act on a TOS violation.
>(I bet you had fun writing that one too.)
>Reading that 3x is a lot like peeling the same orange 3 >times. Somehow, it just never turns into an apple.
>Internet Service Providing isn't HillaryCare. An >ISProvider isn't obligated by law to provide services >against their will.
I never said they should provide services against their will.
I DID say that they should provide the pipe the customer
paid for. If that customer is found to violate the TOS
of the ISP, then the plug should be pulled.
>Perhaps that would be your mentality if you were an ISP.
>Most folks in this forum would refuse to accept money for >the cause of hosting k-porn. But again, we're not you.
True, you're not me, however, regardless of what data
is, be it a jpg, mp3 or whatever, an ISP is paid to
provide the pipe that data goes over.
How is an ISP supposed to know a k-porn site is active
on their network without someone telling them?
I'm looking at this from a technical point of view.
I'm sure anyone that hosts such sites doesn't come right
out and say, I'm hosting child pornography and I want service
from you. Most ISP's want billing information and don't
give a crap. If there's a TOS violation they are made
aware of, then they can pull the plug if they want.
>Or they could not get paid for not providing the
>mechanisms for spam and child pornography. I know you're
>struggling with this, but try to stay with me.
>It really is true. There are some folks who manage to eek >out a living, without aiding spammers and k-porn barons.
>You could be one of them, all you have to do is to believe.
True and most ISP's do. However, as I stated, unless it
is brought to the attention of a HUMAN, the network itself
has no way of knowing what kind of data the users of that
network are passing over it. Now, try and stay with me
on this, a hard drive, network, PC, or other computer
peripheral has no idea what data is stored/displayed/printed etc.
A human has to make that determination.
Hopefully this clarifies my earlier post.
>Actually it would be like an auto leasing company
>choosing to stop doing business
>with a client that depends on those leased vehicles,
>to smuggle in children for his sex trade.
Again, a HUMAN has to make that determination.
I still say money is the great motivator.
The host had all that k-porn/spam etc on it and they
didn't know? The court of public opinion can be a powerful
one. Would you want to join up with an ISP that is known
to host such garbage? My previous post inferred more of
the technical aspects.
>For most of us,
>the loss of income would be worth it
>to not be a part
>of something so profoundly evil.
But that's just the majority of humanity. I understand you have your own creative style of logic.
Yes, clear logic, a data pipe is a data pipe, it's dumb.
It has no intelligence, and doesn't know what kind of data
is passing through it. Looking at it logically, since the
data pipe itself has no intelligence, and human interaction
is required to make a determination, computers cannot be
relied upon to do so. Sure computers can compare files and
determine if they match, but to determine if it's "good"
or "bad" (human concepts by the way) is impossible at this
point in time.
>You seem to object to any interference with the flow of
>data. It doesn't matter how many thousands of human
>beings are utterly ruined by the monsters you enable
>through your ideology.
OK let's pull that one apart....
Of course I object to any interference to the free flow of
data. Data is data. As I've previously stated, good and
evil are human concepts that a computer cannot understand.
Nowhere in this or my previous post did I advocate the
spread of child pornography. Let's use a simple analogy.
A hammer is used to drive nails is it not?
A hammer can also be used to bash someone's skull in.
Should the sale of hammers be banned based on a use that
MAY occur? Of course not. Computers are tools NV, and
how those tools are used depends on the morality of the
person using them. Unfortunately, there are those who look
for this garbage and unfortunately, where there is a demand,
there will be a supply.
I think the entire net needs to be redesigned.
Spammers will look for any open mail server, hack any
easy email password, use malware, spyware, and any PC that
can be compromised, anything they don't have to pay for
to send out the porn links, nigerian 419 email scams, etc.
Any access they can get they'll use. It's already been
proven. Look for a program called Wireshark, and see how
many probes and scans of your IP address are made in a
24 hour period.
As the email system stands right now, everything in, except
what you block. It should be everything blocked, except
what you let in. The net's a mess. You really want to stop
the k-porn and crap? Go after the people looking for it
as well as the people supplying it.
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--Central Control! D-Dial #49
reply
Noah Vail @ 14th Nov 03:14PM:
Re: Apt. analogy makes me laugh.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
>Actually the recommended response is for the ISP to stop >offering their services to the offender. I suppose all >that other irrelevant stuff was fun for you to write, >though.
If the ISP becomes aware of it, of course.
An ISP should always act on a TOS violation.
Spam Origination ISPs ARE notified by spam filtering services; dozens of times a day, via their registered abuse address.
Likewise, k-porn hosts and providers are also notified regularly, by law enforcement and private agencies who deal with this stuff.
You'll have to do better than that to protect those who are rewarded for spam and k-porn.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
An >ISProvider isn't obligated by law to provide services >against their will.
I never said they should provide services against their will.
I offered that the ISP isn't under a legal constraint to support k-porn or spam. That removes the ONLY possibly valid reason to not immediately terminate that support.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
I DID say that they should
provide the pipe the customer paid for. If that customer is found to violate the TOS of the ISP, then the plug should be pulled.
So knowingly hosting k-porn is acceptable to you, as long as you are paid for it and it isn't against any ToS you might happen to jot down.
Nice.
You wouldn't mind
providing your personal contact information
to those children
who were raped in order to provide those images,
would you?
As they grow to adulthood, some may wish to stop by and express their feelings on your profiteering methods.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
>Perhaps that would be your mentality if you were an ISP.
>Most folks in this forum would refuse to accept money for >the cause of hosting k-porn. But again, we're not you.
True, you're not me, however, regardless of what data
is, be it a jpg, mp3 or whatever, an ISP is paid to
provide the pipe that data goes over.
How is an ISP supposed to know a k-porn site is active
on their network without someone telling them?
I would think that daily notices of spam traffic and regular alerts to their k-porn provisions would constitute being notified.
So it really isn't a matter of ignorance then, is it?
said by DeeplyShrouded :
I'm looking at this from a technical point of view.
I'm sure anyone that hosts such sites doesn't come right
out and say, I'm hosting child pornography and I want service from you.
They don't have to. As soon as they establish themselves as a provider that is friendly to spam, bots and k-porn, the business comes to them. All they need to do to establish themselves is to ignore the countless abuse notices that alert them to the illicit network traffic.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Most ISP's want billing information and don't give a crap. If there's a TOS violation they are made aware of, then they can pull the plug if they want.
Most ISP's don't care? Maybe in the Czech Republic or Nairobi or your world. Most US ISP's are going to dump those accounts, the moment they read the abuse notices.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
>Or they could not get paid for not providing the
>mechanisms for spam and child pornography. I know you're
>struggling with this, but try to stay with me.
>It really is true. There are some folks who manage to eek >out a living, without aiding spammers and k-porn barons.
>You could be one of them, all you have to do is to believe.
True and most ISP's do. However, as I stated, unless it
is brought to the attention of a HUMAN, the network itself
has no way of knowing what kind of data the users of that
network are passing over it.
Thousands of abuse notices might just rise to the level of NOTIFICATION.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Now, try and stay with me
on this, a hard drive, network, PC, or other computer
peripheral has no idea what data is stored/displayed/printed etc. A human has to make that determination.
Hopefully this clarifies my earlier post.
And the humans whose networks provision k-porn, spam and bots choose, more than a day or two, have chosen to profit from that material.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
>Actually it would be like an auto leasing company
>choosing to stop doing business
>with a client that depends on those leased vehicles,
>to smuggle in children for his sex trade.
Again, a HUMAN has to make that determination.
I still say money is the great motivator.
The host had all that k-porn/spam etc on it and they
didn't know?
They knew. With the length of time they were enabling spam-casting, the notices likely numbered hundreds of thousands.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
For most of us,
the loss of income would be worth it
to not be a part
of something so profoundly evil.
But that's just the majority of humanity. I understand you have your own creative style of logic.
Yes, clear logic, a data pipe is a data pipe, it's dumb.
It has no intelligence, and doesn't know what kind of data
is passing through it. Looking at it logically, since the
data pipe itself has no intelligence, and human interaction
is required to make a determination, computers cannot be
relied upon to do so. Sure computers can compare files and
determine if they match, but to determine if it's "good"
or "bad" (human concepts by the way) is impossible at this
point in time.
Unless, of course, you read the notices that inform that the files are, indeed bad.
said by DeeplyShrouded :said by Noah Vail :
>You seem to object to any interference with the flow of
>data. It doesn't matter how many thousands of human
>beings are utterly ruined by the monsters you enable
>through your ideology.
OK let's pull that one apart....
Of course I object to any interference to the free flow of
data. Data is data.
And much of that data is innocuous. But the instant appearance of tens of thousands of connections, to a single user might just put you on to the trail of one of the bot nets you host.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
As I've previously stated, good and evil are human concepts that a computer cannot understand. Nowhere in this or my previous post did I advocate the spread of child pornography.
It's true that you didn't say that.
However you did state that you object to an ISP preventing the spread of k-porn, via their network, as long as the k-porn baron has paid their bill and isn't in conflict with any ToS the ISP owner may have scribbled down.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Let's use a simple analogy.
A hammer is used to drive nails is it not?
A hammer can also be used to bash someone's skull in.
Should the sale of hammers be banned based on a use that
MAY occur? Of course not.
An analogy of goods to highlight an issue of services, isn't a very good analogy; but we'll try to work with it.
So this guy is buying a stream of hammers from you. I stop in and provide you acceptable evidence that he's burying them in the skulls of horses.
You then plug your fingers in your ears and sing loudly "La La La La La. Nobody's notifying me of anyone killing horses with my hammers! La La La La La!".
You then continue to sell him hammers because
he's PAYING for them,
there isn't any 'No Killing Horses with These Hammers' notice posed in the window,
and what business is it of yours, anyway?
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Computers are tools NV, and how those tools are used depends on the morality of the person using them.
That is so profound, I may have that tattooed on my thigh.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Unfortunately, there are those who look for this garbage and unfortunately, where there is a demand, there will be a supply.
The supply doesn't magically appear. People work to create it. Other people turn their heads and enable it. Still others, make excuses for them both.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
Look for a program called Wireshark, and see how many probes and scans of your IP address are made in a 24 hour period.
Well, gee whiz Wally, I'll just go do that (you forgot to recommend using WinPCap 4.1 beta, because it's more compatible in promiscuous mode on virtual and wireless adapters).
And here's something really brilliant I can to with Wireshark. I could point it inside my network and spot check http headers for keywords, look for malformed packet and concentrated port traffic spikes.
That's if I managed any type of network, and I actually cared about something beyond my paycheck. If.
said by DeeplyShrouded :
As the email system stands right now, everything in, except what you block. It should be everything blocked, except what you let in. The net's a mess. You really want to stop the k-porn and crap? Go after the people looking for it as well as the people supplying it.
Oh yea. Imposing suffocating controls is WAY better than an ISP shutting off their bot and spam traffic, once they've been notified.
NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd.
reply
McLovin @ 14th Nov 06:51PM:
Re: So,...
said by McLovin :said by bent :
Damn. It looks like close to half the reported spam was coming from this host.
{IMG Removed}
Same here on our end. I'll see if we can get a graph generated, but our spam filter went from 70,000 messages per hour, to around 10,000 in a matter of a minute or two after this...
Here is our graph.
--
Remember, passwords are like underwear... the longer the better... don't leave them lying around... keep them hidden... don't share them with your friends... and change yours often!
reply
anon @ 15th Nov 10:26AM:
Re: Apt. analogy makes me laugh.
>If the ISP becomes aware of it, of course.
>An ISP should always act on a TOS violation.
>Spam Origination ISPs ARE notified by spam
>filtering services; dozens of times a day, via their
>registered abuse address.
>Likewise, k-porn hosts and providers are also notified
>regularly, by law enforcement and private agencies who
>deal with this stuff.
>You'll have to do better than that to protect those who
>are rewarded for spam and k-porn.
So if they're notified, and do nothing they should be held
liable as well. The Son Of Sam law prohibits criminals
from profiting in any way from their crimes.
Any ISP worth its salt has it in their TOS that the
Service will not be used for illegal purposes.
>I offered that the ISP isn't under a legal constraint to
>support k-porn or spam. That removes the ONLY possibly
>valid reason to not immediately terminate that support.
If the account holder is violating the TOS, then of course
the account should be terminated. However, how many ISP's
read the thousands of emails going to abuse@isp.com net
or whatever? I know when I send spam to Yahoo's abuse,
I get a reply within a day.
>So knowingly hosting k-porn is acceptable to you, as long >as you are paid for it and it isn't against any ToS you
>might happen to jot down.
>Nice.
>You wouldn't mind
>providing your personal contact information
>to those children
>who were raped in order to provide those images,
>would you?
>As they grow to adulthood, some may wish to stop by and >express their feelings on your profiteering methods.
As previously stated, I am against any form of child
pornography, and this is the second time I've had to make
this clear to you.
I also previously stated, that data is data, and unless
one human notifies another human that something is wrong,
the network will pass the data sent through it.
I also said, that no ISP I know of at least in the USA
would willingly accept payment from someone who opens
an account and tells the ISP they're a child porn distributor.
However, there appears to be a market for it, and the
old law of supply and demand comes into play.
If there's a demand, there will always be a supply.
Have you ever seen a ball bearing 1000 ft around?
I haven't. Why? There's no demand for it, hence, no supply.
It's like the "war on drugs", there's a demand for it,
so there will always be a supply, no matter how much
law enforcement throws money and resources at it.
Why? Because there's no electronic trail. Drug pushers
can meet anywhere, anytime to peddle their garbage and
the users who are addicted will always be there.
>I would think that daily notices of spam traffic and
>regular alerts to their k-porn provisions would constitute
>being notified.
>So it really isn't a matter of ignorance then, is it?
If an ISP is ignoring notification that something is wrong
then that ISP is in it for the money and doesn't care
what is wrong. If I were an ISP, and I found that filth
on my network, law enforcement would be notified immediately.
The smart thing is for law enforcement to go after the downloaders as well.
I truly wonder how many ISP's really DO read their
abuse@ emails. There is probably some automated system
in place to deal with it. Still though, from a technical
standpoint, a network doesn't know or care what data is
going over it. It takes human to human contact to make
the determination that some data (jpg or whatever) is
k-porn.
>They don't have to. As soon as they establish themselves
>as a provider that is friendly to spam, bots and k-porn,
>the business comes to them. All they need to do to
>establish themselves is to ignore the countless abuse
>notices that alert them to the illicit network traffic.
And for this they should be held liable.
When Youtube is notified that there is copyrighted material
posted, they usually remove it immediately or in a timely
manner. What I find interesting is, it took a news reporter
to get this McColo site shut down. So the question becomes,
did the ISP know? If so, how long did they know, and if
the amount of time spans years, then why wasn't action
taken sooner?
>Most ISP's want billing information and don't give a crap. >If there's a TOS violation they are made aware of, then >they can pull the plug if they want.
>Most ISP's don't care? Maybe in the Czech Republic or
>Nairobi or your world. Most US ISP's are going to dump
>those accounts, the moment they read the abuse notices.
And how many actually do? When a person signs up for
service, the only thing an ISP wants to know at first is
will they be paid. That's the bottom line.
The user reads the TOS (which hopefully has some clause
in there that says they won't use the network for illegal
purposes), clicks accept, and bingo, they now have an
account. At this point, the ISP is only interested in
providing service for payment. Spammers/k-porn etc.
don't care about the TOS. If one ISP dumps them, they'll
just find another, or, using a different name/info, come
back to the same ISP. Not to mention the fact that there
are literally tens of thousands of viruses and worms out
on the net designed to exploit any weakness in a PC so
a spammer/etc. can use it to send out their garbage for
free.
>Or they could not get paid for not providing the
>mechanisms for spam and child pornography. I know you're
>struggling with this, but try to stay with me.
>It really is true. There are some folks who manage to eek >out a living, without aiding spammers and k-porn barons.
>You could be one of them, all you have to do is to believe.
>True and most ISP's do. However, as I stated, unless it
>is brought to the attention of a HUMAN, the network itself
>has no way of knowing what kind of data the users of that
>network are passing over it.
>Thousands of abuse notices might just rise to the level of
>NOTIFICATION.
Re-read what I said, the NETWORK has no way of knowing.
It still takes a human to make that determination.
To the network, those thousands of abuse notices are just
data.
>Now, try and stay with me
>on this, a hard drive, network, PC, or other computer
>peripheral has no idea what data is stored/displayed
>/printed etc. A human has to make that determination.
>Hopefully this clarifies my earlier post.
>And the humans whose networks provision k-porn, spam and
>bots choose, more than a day or two, have chosen to profit
>from that material.
Exactly. CHOOSE TO. A human has to make the choice.
As stated, where there is a demand, there will be a
supply. It's unfortunate but alas, it is true.
I think they should be held liable as well. If there is
notification and nothing is done, then they're in it
for the money. I still say go after the people looking
for it (drying up the demand) and the supply should go
with it. Naturally in a perfect world, that would be true.
However, in our world, it unfortunately isn't.
>Actually it would be like an auto leasing company
>choosing to stop doing business
>with a client that depends on those leased vehicles,
>to smuggle in children for his sex trade.
>Again, a HUMAN has to make that determination.
>I still say money is the great motivator.
>The host had all that k-porn/spam etc on it and they
>didn't know?
>They knew. With the length of time they were enabling
>spam-casting, the notices likely numbered hundreds of
>thousands.
If it went on for years then of course they knew.
I've been trying to tell you, that as far as technology
goes, one computer passing data to another sees that
data as binary information. 0's and 1's.
Again, a human has to make the determination.
Even if they didn't read the abuse@ emails, the server
space alone to store thousands and thousands over the
years would at least give them SOME clue.
So yes, they knew.
>For most of us,
>the loss of income would be worth it
>to not be a part
>of something so profoundly evil.
>But that's just the majority of humanity.
>I understand you have your own creative style of logic.
>Yes, clear logic, a data pipe is a data pipe, it's dumb.
>It has no intelligence, and doesn't know what kind of data
>is passing through it. Looking at it logically, since the
>data pipe itself has no intelligence, and human interaction
>is required to make a determination, computers cannot be
>relied upon to do so. Sure computers can compare files and
>determine if they match, but to determine if it's "good"
>or "bad" (human concepts by the way) is impossible at this
>point in time.
>Unless, of course, you read the notices that inform that
>the files are, indeed bad.
On that we agree. I tend to look at the technical side
of things. A NIC or hard drive doesn't know what the data
is, to them, it's all 0's and 1's.
>You seem to object to any interference with the flow of
>data. It doesn't matter how many thousands of human
>beings are utterly ruined by the monsters you enable
>through your ideology.
>OK let's pull that one apart....
>Of course I object to any interference to the free flow of
>data. Data is data.
>And much of that data is innocuous. But the instant
>appearance of tens of thousands of connections, to a
>single user might just put you on to the trail of one of
>the bot nets you host.
>As I've previously stated, good and evil are human
>concepts that a computer cannot understand. Nowhere in
>this or my previous post did I advocate the spread of
>child pornography.
>It's true that you didn't say that.
>However you did state that you object to an ISP preventing
>the spread of k-porn, via their network, as long as the
>k-porn baron has paid their bill and isn't in conflict
>with any ToS the ISP owner may have scribbled down.
No, I said, I object to an ISP impeding the free flow of
data. 0's and 1's. Nowhere did I say I advocate the spread
of k-porn. As I said, I'm looking at things from the
technical point of view. I know when I send email to my
sister or video chat with my mother, I don't need an ISP
impeding that data. At this point in time however, there
does not seem to be a way for an ISP to curb the k-porn.
Here's the quandry I see. It's illegal to produce right?
It's illegal to possess right? So even if it were
technically possible to compare every file going over every
IP address of its network, how can an ISP compare files
if such garbage is illegal to produce or possess?
>Let's use a simple analogy.
>A hammer is used to drive nails is it not?
>A hammer can also be used to bash someone's skull in.
>Should the sale of hammers be banned based on a use that
>MAY occur? Of course not.
>An analogy of goods to highlight an issue of services, >isn't a very good analogy; but we'll try to work with it.
>So this guy is buying a stream of hammers from you. I
>stop in and provide you acceptable evidence that he's >burying them in the skulls of horses.
>You then plug your fingers in your ears and sing loudly
>"La La La La La. Nobody's notifying me of anyone killing
>horses with my hammers! La La La La La!".
>You then continue to sell him hammers because
>he's PAYING for them,
>there isn't any 'No Killing Horses with These Hammers' >notice posed in the window,
>and what business is it of yours, anyway?
How is a hammer supposed to know it's killing horses?
When I go to a hardware store to buy a hammer, does the
salesperson ask me if I'm going to use it to kill horses?
Of course not. I can go back there as many times as I want
and buy as many hammers as I want. Now, if the hardware
store has any morality, and is informed that the hammers
they are selling to me are being used to kill horses, then
hopefully they would stop selling me hammers wouldn't they?
Suppose I have a baby that's deathly allergic to milk.
One drop could kill them. I go to the store for a gallon.
Is the store going to ask me if I have a baby that's
deathly allergic to milk? Of course not. They will sell
me the product as long as I am willing to pay for it.
Now, if that same store were notified that I intend to
purchase milk to kill my baby (if an isp were notified
beforehand that the account I purchased was intended to
be used for illegal purposes) then that store would be
under a moral obligation not to sell me milk.
>Computers are tools NV, and how those tools are used
>depends on the morality of the person using them.
>That is so profound, I may have that tattooed on my thigh.
It is also true, and like any inanimate object, computers
have no concept of "good" or "bad".
>Unfortunately, there are those who look for this garbage
>and unfortunately, where there is a demand, there will be
>a supply.
>The supply doesn't magically appear. People work to
>create it. Other people turn their heads and enable it.
>Still others, make excuses for them both.
Thank you. You've just summed up what I've been saying.
Computers have no idea the F-bomb is a "bad" word.
The letters F U C and K can be used in plenty of other
words. It's when you string them together in a certain
sequence, that it becomes morally objective.
It comes back down to the old law of supply and demand.
>Look for a program called Wireshark, and see how many
>probes and scans of your IP address are made in a 24 hour
>period.
>Well, gee whiz Wally, I'll just go do that (you forgot to
>recommend using WinPCap 4.1 beta, because it's more
>compatible in promiscuous mode on virtual and wireless
>adapters).
>And here's something really brilliant I can to with
>Wireshark. I could point it inside my network and spot
>check http headers for keywords, look for malformed packet
>and concentrated port traffic spikes.
>That's if I managed any type of network, and I actually
>cared about something beyond my paycheck. If.
Haven't heard of WinPCap, I'll have to check that one out.
I don't manage any type of network except for my home one.
>As the email system stands right now, everything in,
>except what you block. It should be everything blocked,
>except what you let in. The net's a mess. You really want
>to stop the k-porn and crap? Go after the people looking
>for it as well as the people supplying it.
>Oh yea. Imposing suffocating controls is WAY better than
>an ISP shutting off their bot and spam traffic, once
>they've been notified.
>NV
Naturally an ISP should be notified, that's a given.
But if there were a way to stop the crap in the first
place, then ISP notification would be moot wouldn't it?
I don't see how a whitelist email system would be
suffocating controls. For instance, I have Skype, and
there is an option to only allow contacts from people I
know. Same thing with MSN Messenger. Now if those two
programs can do it, why not web based email?
Is it really too much trouble to add only the people you
want to receive email from to an addressbook?
It sure would put a stop to all the randomaddress@yahoo.com
spam that says come see me **** on webcam".
Even if you filter "crap" they can spell it "c r a p"
and still get by your filter.
With a whitelist based email system, you still get the
content you want without all the spam.
As far as the k-porn crap, unfortunately, it's not going
to go away any more than spam is. It doesn't matter how
many hosts an ISP shuts down, they'll pop up somewhere else.
I still say that law enforcement should go after the
people that look for k-porn as well as those that supply it.
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--Central Control! D-Dial #49
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anon @ 19th Nov 03:49PM:
you got the wrong analogy
landlords are not like ISP's. ISP's are more akin to the people in charge of roads and highways, and maybe more like the ones in charge of toll roads. you can't hold the toll road owner responsible for everything that traverses his road. that said, if i saw a car with a big stack of illegal drugs or something hanging off the hood speeding down my toll road, OR ANY road, I'd call the police and report it, plain and simple. Might even try to take down their license plate number. that's my 2 cents. thank ya.
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