AT&T: No, We Didn't Misconfigure Our 3G Network - Carrier claims latency criticisms are unfounded
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AT&T: No, We Didn't Misconfigure Our 3G Network
Carrier claims latency criticisms are unfounded
02:08PM Thursday Oct 29 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: business · bandwidth · networking
Earlier this week, blogger and 25-year communications industry vet Brough Turner started a bit of a ruckus with a blog post suggesting that AT&T's wireless broadband network problems were partially AT&T's fault, and not just attributable to the massive influx of data-hungry iPhone users. Though he admittedly didn't have access to the AT&T network guts or first hand experience running a HSDPA GSM network, Turner speculated that AT&T had misconfigured their network, specifically in terms of latency and RNC buffers:

It appears AT&T Wireless has configured their RNC buffers so there is no packet loss, ie with buffers capable of holding more than ten seconds of data. Zero packet loss may sound impressive to a telephone guy, but it causes TCP congestion collapse and thus doesn't work for the mobile Internet.
It's fairly amazing how far and wide Turner's analysis resonated across the Internet, with literally dozens of stories quickly popping up on how AT&T's problems may have been partially their own fault. That of course put AT&T's primary wireless PR protectorate Seth Bloom back into his unenviable position of having to play public relations bomb disposal, and Bloom spent the week contacting dozens of blogs to deny the allegation.

"We believe that recent online speculation regarding AT&T wireless network configuration settings is without foundation," says the company. "Allegations in these posts regarding packet loss network settings are incorrect." "The AT&T wireless network is designed and engineered to deliver the highest possible levels of capacity and performance," says AT&T, who insists that their standing as operator of the fastest 3G network is "validated by multiple third-party testing organizations."

Yes and no. While AT&T's HSDPA network is technically capable of faster speeds than Verizon and Sprint EVDO, it it very often doesn't act that way -- particularly in congested networks like New York City. A recent suite of tests by several news outlets highlighted how AT&T's technically faster network quite often under-performs (see both PC World and Wired tests from earlier this year).

The thing is, whether Turner's diagnosis is accurate or not, AT&T has continually found itself on the receiving end of network quality criticism for a reason -- namely that their network isn't performing well for a significant number of their users. AT&T continues to insist that they're quickly adding cell cites, backhaul and migrating markets to the more capable 850Mhz GSM band. Still, with the kind of wireless data revenues AT&T pulls in each quarter, there's really no excuse for the problems in the first place or moving forward -- no matter what the cause.

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baineschile @ 29th Oct 02:24PM:
Really?

A young male who thinks he knows more than he actually does bashing a tech company? I have NEVER heard of that before...........in any blog/tech news site....................

/sarcasm

Edit: Sorry, misread article. Thought it was a 25 year old.
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Chaldo @ 29th Oct 02:25PM:
Then why are we still in this situation?

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?
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Rob @ 29th Oct 02:26PM:
Milking it for all they can..

IMO, the reason why AT&T has not upgraded their network as quickly and efficiently as we would expect (especially seeing their revenues jump so high thanks to the iPhone) is because they know that when other carriers can start offering the iPhone, customers will switch. In turn, the network congestion on AT&T's network should go down. So to AT&T, why spend all this money to support the current network when there's a really good chance that many users will switch? IMO, AT&T has upgraded their network just enough to make it "stable", but not enough to make it the fastest 3G network in the U.S.

They are milking the iPhone revenue for all they can knowing that the money tree will die one day and they don't want to see all that money "wasted" in a great network.
--
CheckSite.us | YourIP.us | Reverseip.us

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Rob @ 29th Oct 02:27PM:
Re: Really?

said by baineschile :

A young male who thinks he knows more than he actually does bashing a tech company? I have NEVER heard of that before...........in any blog/tech news site....................

/sarcasm
Psst.. he's a 25-year veteran of the communication industry.. NOT a 25-year OLD. :D
--
CheckSite.us | YourIP.us | Reverseip.us

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Karl Bode @ 29th Oct 02:27PM:
Re: Really?

25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
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dynodb @ 29th Oct 02:35PM:
LOL at the simplemindedness

I always find it hilarious (in a frustrating kind of way) that for any present or future issue, everyone assumes that simply throwing money at it will instantly solve the problem.

Be it new cell towers, trunks, etc- it takes money AND time. There is no telcom vending machine in which you insert $200 million dollars and out drops more broadband capacity.
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james @ 29th Oct 02:39PM:
Re: Milking it for all they can..

The funny thing is that if they did invest in an amazing network they would likely have kept most of their customers. Now they won't no matter what they do.
--
[BQUOTE=[user=Metatron2008]]But people who download thousands of movies and games.... Yes, they are as bad as any murderer[/BQUOTE]

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en102 @ 29th Oct 02:42PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

They bought separate spectrum for 3G, and didn't attempt to recycle spectrum as AT&T has been doing.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

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ezalocusky @ 29th Oct 02:45PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

Yeah, but you would think AT&T would start improving their data service since Apple is planning to sell the iPhone to other U.S. carriers. It would be logical for them to start actually giving a damn about their performance. But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
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Skippy25 @ 29th Oct 02:45PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

And I find it hilarious that so many assume doing nothing to increase the capacity of the network will address future bandwidth needs.

Be it backhaul, fiber, and such. There is no telcom out there that wont go to that vending machine to take an extra $200 million in profit instead of improving their networks as much as they should to keep the network growing.

Sure it takes time and money, but you have to invest both of those things for the future and you have to do it at a pace that keeps up with demand, if not surpasses it.
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dynodb @ 29th Oct 02:50PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by ezalocusky :

But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
Show me on the doll where the big bad corporation touched you. :uhh:
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TKJunkMail @ 29th Oct 02:51PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo :

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?
And you know that how?
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funchords @ 29th Oct 02:59PM:
What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

See the output in the thread that started it all is here: »www.postel.org/pipermail/end2end···tml#7742 and the rabble-rouser is David P. Reed (a deeply respected network God).


It's interesting -- there's 10 seconds of RTT delay yet not one dropped packet.

Please read the thread for a long list of possible explanations, much too much to sum up here.

--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/

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LineNoise @ 29th Oct 03:00PM:
backhaul upgrades

I'm not sure where you guys are at, but I know at least in Chicago they're running fiber straight to the tower. I stopped and talked to the 2 guys doing it. Again, not an overnight process, but they are doing something.

By no means is this meant to be taken as a defense for AT&T, I don't like them at all. Just stating facts.
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jimbo2150 @ 29th Oct 03:05PM:
Lawsuit anyone?

While AT&T's HSDPA network is technically capable of faster speeds than Verizon and Sprint EVDO, it it very often doesn't act that way -- particularly in congested networks like New York City. A recent suite of tests by several news outlets highlighted how AT&T's technically faster network quite often under-performs (see both PC World and Wired tests from earlier this year).
Does this mean I can start a class-action against AT&T for having all those commercials and signs that say "The nation's fastest network" !

lol

p.s. Happy Halloween!
--

- "Techie" Jim

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PapaMidnight @ 29th Oct 03:13PM:
Re: Really?

25 year vet of the industry, not 25 years old.
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dynodb @ 29th Oct 03:16PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by Skippy25 :

And I find it hilarious that so many assume doing nothing to increase the capacity of the network will address future bandwidth needs.
Check their 3rd quarter results- $4.2 billion in capital expenditures this quarter and over $11 billion year to date. It's fair to assume that a signficant amount of that went to wireless expansion and upgrades.
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Metatron2008 @ 29th Oct 03:20PM:
Re: Really?

I don't think you know from the 3 above answers, but he might be a 25 year vet.
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MrMaster @ 29th Oct 03:21PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

said by LineNoise :

I'm not sure where you guys are at, but I know at least in Chicago they're running fiber straight to the tower. I stopped and talked to the 2 guys doing it. Again, not an overnight process, but they are doing something.

By no means is this meant to be taken as a defense for AT&T, I don't like them at all. Just stating facts.
Tell them to get their asses on a plane and head down to Austin. I'm dropping calls more now than I ever have in my 2 years with AT&T.
--
One never notices what has been done; one can only see what remains to be done. -Marie Curie

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anon @ 29th Oct 03:21PM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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N3OGH @ 29th Oct 03:27PM:
Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

AT&T, your packet, Delivered:
time=9300ms
AT&T, your packet, Delivered:
time=9320ms
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…

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Freezone @ 29th Oct 03:34PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

Can youturn the dollarround and bend it over please sir?
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Chaldo @ 29th Oct 03:35PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

My cousin took my Blackberry to travel all around Euro and he has had no issues what so ever in countries he was in, he said they had way cooler phones, and his speeds were always fine, signal almost everywhere great call quality. Then here comes AT&T.. I have there wireless service, I have rarely no issues, but I am sick of hearing the complaints.
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TKJunkMail @ 29th Oct 03:40PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo :

My cousin took my Blackberry to travel all around Euro and he has had no issues what so ever in countries he was in, he said they had way cooler phones, and his speeds were always fine, signal almost everywhere great call quality. Then here comes AT&T.. I have there wireless service, I have rarely no issues, but I am sick of hearing the complaints.
A sample of 1 doesn't make a valid statistical comparison of service in the EU and the US.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page



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ezalocusky @ 29th Oct 03:45PM:
Re: Lawsuit anyone?

AMEN!!! They should head towards St. Louis. EVERY CALL I MADE GETS DROPPED!!!
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quatrix @ 29th Oct 03:49PM:
Re: Really?

I know plenty of 25-year-olds who know more than clueless 25-year industry veterans. Funny how blogs magically turn people into couch experts.
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Van @ 29th Oct 03:50PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by dynodb :

said by ezalocusky :

But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
Show me on the doll where the big bad corporation touched you. :uhh:
Just show me your wallet and that should do
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pnh102 @ 29th Oct 04:04PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

said by MrMaster :

Tell them to get their asses on a plane and head down to Austin. I'm dropping calls more now than I ever have in my 2 years with AT&T.
Why stay with them if they suck so much? Aren't there other providers in Austin that do a better job?
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

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battleop @ 29th Oct 04:04PM:
Re: Really?

You just described 97% of the readers here.
reply
Vertickle @ 29th Oct 04:11PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

said by pnh102 :

said by MrMaster :

Tell them to get their asses on a plane and head down to Austin. I'm dropping calls more now than I ever have in my 2 years with AT&T.
Why stay with them if they suck so much? Aren't there other providers in Austin that do a better job?
He may be in a contract maybe? He may be using a company phone and the provider is ATT? Switching services isn't always as easy as it would appear...
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dancekat1 @ 29th Oct 04:12PM:
Related Story...

I had five trucks roll on my apartment on the northside and spent 4 HOURS on a teleconference with the data operations center and line maintenance people because of congested throughput and inability to sustain constant DSL speeds. Even the data operations people at AT&T admitted that the local nodes that all internet traffic went through were all both highly latent and timing out on connections. Further analysis revealed that there was very little buffering going on in the network and my data was being dropped. 5 technicians verified my line connection was good. My network redback had a low load and usage. My port was cut and changed at the CO. In the conference call (again nearly 4 hours long) AT&T basically admitted to me they couldn't manage their network. Funny things is - the guys in data ops saying this aren't used to talking to customers and were quite frank in admitting where the problem seemed to be.
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itguy05 @ 29th Oct 04:21PM:
Re: Milking it for all they can..

I doubt any of the US carriers (and that includes Verizon's NOTwork) would have been able to handle the massive (almost overnight) influx of data customers that the iPhone has brought.

After all, just a year or so ago people thought the iPhone would be a huge flop....
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WhatNow @ 29th Oct 04:37PM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

If this crowd of experts were in upper management would it be the most successful company in the world or bankrupt 12 months from now?
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pnh102 @ 29th Oct 04:43PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

said by Vertickle :

He may be in a contract maybe? He may be using a company phone and the provider is ATT? Switching services isn't always as easy as it would appear...
True, but every cell contract has a 2 week to 1 month window to quit the contract without paying an ETF. If I switched carriers and the new service was not working I'd have bolted before being subject to an ETF.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

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Vamp9190 @ 29th Oct 04:46PM:
Re: Related Story...

said by dancekat1 :

I had five trucks roll on my apartment on the northside...
lol, sounds like the SWAT team showed up

why would 5 trucks go to an apartment for a DSL issue
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elbm @ 29th Oct 05:02PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

ATT is running fiber to the tower but they are doing (at least in the mid atlantic area) unprotected, unmonitored, ehternet based fiber services. e.g 2 fibers from a switch at the tower to a telco company router and then into telco company transport. VZW is running ehternet over sonet to all their towers and hauling it all the way back as sonet to their pop sites. The advantages to the VZW approach is dedicated, monitored, redundant, near latency free bandwidth from every tower back to VZW's core network. VZW's approach cost substantially more but will be much more robust and reliable over time. Some of VZW's pop sites the towers are comming back to teh new Fujitsu FW9500's -- these muxes can switch upto 480 gigs per second. For anyone that cares here is a link to a data sheet on the mux:

»www.fujitsu.com/downloads/TEL/fn···9500.pdf
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mobbo @ 29th Oct 05:34PM:
AT&T Culture?

I never have a good feeling when I see AT&T is working on capacity, cell towers, backhaul, etc. In my experience, AT&T project managers are incredibly incompetent. Our company's office needed an upgrade of our existing phone system...pretty simple job considering all the equipment was there already. We had missed appointments, lost upgrade equipment, "miscommunications" about when techs needed to be there, flat out missed one Saturday appointment which was my ONE weekend off that month.

Their project structure is incredibly inefficient and redundant. Multiple chains-of-command, VP's all over the place, field supervisors, etc. They finally got our measley phone system installed (half-assed job by the way) after 5 months!!! I'm still cleaning up the piss-poor wiring jobs they did. Boxes left all over the place. They gave us no passwords for maintenance. No phone numbers/acct. #'s for support calls. I finally had to have a damn conference call with some VP just to get that info!!

If the same people are incharge of building out new capacity, towers, etc... I can't imagine the clusterf*** of miscommunication occuring at the moment. It must be EPIC! But they don't care. They're union. They'll get their paycheck.

And they can't "trim" the workforce because they're all union.
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fiber_man @ 29th Oct 05:42PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

Only redundant if they are placing 2 fiber cables to each cell site which I for one don't believe they are doing. One cut cable and the entire cell site is down. We have several cell sites with OC-12's placed at the site but it is on a single fiber cable to the site.
--
GO NOLES!!

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cajun4x4 @ 29th Oct 05:45PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

All depends if they are the local ILEC or not. Most of the ones that I am familiar with are being provisioned on the Flashwave platform.
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elbm @ 29th Oct 05:55PM:
Re: backhaul upgrades

It is still redundant-- we fix many simplex troubles where only one or two fibers in the cable are damaged e.g. rodents, gun fire, freeze breaks, sleeve corrosion, deterioration of the cladding... Very often it is a single cable to the site but the route the fibers take once leave the cable feeding the sight is diverse.

Two fiber cables to a site is considered a diverse feed site.

The redundancy also extends beyond the cable, the sonet based stuff has redundant optics, timing, data bases, rectifiers and on some services low speed ports. All of this redundancy is carried out through the sonet network.

Nothing on the fiber/ethernet is redundant.
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cameronsfx @ 29th Oct 06:00PM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

said by mobbo :

I never have a good feeling when I see AT&T is working on capacity, cell towers, backhaul, etc. In my experience, AT&T project managers are incredibly incompetent. Our company's office needed an upgrade of our existing phone system...pretty simple job considering all the equipment was there already. We had missed appointments, lost upgrade equipment, "miscommunications" about when techs needed to be there, flat out missed one Saturday appointment which was my ONE weekend off that month.

Their project structure is incredibly inefficient and redundant. Multiple chains-of-command, VP's all over the place, field supervisors, etc. They finally got our measley phone system installed (half-assed job by the way) after 5 months!!! I'm still cleaning up the piss-poor wiring jobs they did. Boxes left all over the place. They gave us no passwords for maintenance. No phone numbers/acct. #'s for support calls. I finally had to have a damn conference call with some VP just to get that info!!

If the same people are incharge of building out new capacity, towers, etc... I can't imagine the clusterf*** of miscommunication occuring at the moment. It must be EPIC! But they don't care. They're union. They'll get their paycheck.

And they can't "trim" the workforce because they're all union.
That describes AT&T business services to a tee. I'd rather stick tin cans together or just hire a local business telecom outfit that knows what the hell they are doing. Only big businesses or very, very small ones use AT&T. I can say Pensacola has seen Cox take away 50% or more of all AT&T's business especially residential. I know only 1 person who hasn't dumped AT&T at his residence.
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mobbo @ 29th Oct 06:04PM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

Trust me...I would have NEVER gone with AT&T if it had been my decision. The upgrade was already in the beginning stages when I was hired on. I would have BEGGED to go with a smaller local company, but I had no pull at the time. Working for AT&T must be a very frustrating job. You have 100 VP's and supervisors over you and so many stupid procedures, you can't get anything done!! I imagine after a while you just give up. That was the vibe I got from all the AT&T techs that came to work on our project. They just didn't give a shit. They probably used to care...but it had been beaten out of them after years of stupid corporate crap.
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Boxer Person @ 29th Oct 06:04PM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

With all respect the majority of the employees you spoke of, project managers, VPs, field supervisors, are by definition non-union. ;)
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dancekat1 @ 29th Oct 06:23PM:
Re: Related Story...

Five separate visits over 4 weeks....sorry for the confusion...
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Chaldo @ 29th Oct 07:31PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

That's just my cousin, I have a lot of people that live in EU and say they have this carrier, don't have problems there network is a lot faster then the ones here right now. I just heard great things about there GSM networks, and look here what AT&T gets criticized for, it pisses me off and I am still a 10+ year customer of them. My dad just went to NY 4 weeks ago he got so many call failed messages on his phone he couldn't stand it he almost switched to Verizon when he got back, but I don't want him too I can't stand Verizon. This is just my 2 cents.
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Chaldo @ 29th Oct 07:35PM:
Re: Milking it for all they can..

I disagree, this is just the beginning. There will be a time where you will see Smartphones grow larger in usage then they do now, and it wont be considered "luxury" anymore, it will be a every day life thing. The usage is only going to grow, and they need to deal with that demand. 4G LTE will help a lot with that, but AT&T has to do what it can to get up with the demand, if they don't bad news for them.

Just my 2 cents.
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TKJunkMail @ 29th Oct 07:35PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo :

That's just my cousin, I have a lot of people that live in EU and say they have this carrier, don't have problems there network is a lot faster then the ones here right now. I just heard great things about there GSM networks, and look here what AT&T gets criticized for, it pisses me off and I am still a 10+ year customer of them. My dad just went to NY 4 weeks ago he got so many call failed messages on his phone he couldn't stand it he almost switched to Verizon when he got back, but I don't want him too I can't stand Verizon. This is just my 2 cents.
I don't dispute at all your contention that AT&T has MANY problems with service in parts of the US. I just doubt that cell phone coverage in some parts of the EU are not as bad(like Poland, Romania, etc.).
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page



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bender @ 29th Oct 07:44PM:
Re: Really?

i resemble that remark. well, plus 2 years
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NetFixer @ 29th Oct 07:47PM:
Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

That is some terrible lag you have in DC. Maybe you should move out into the hinterlands.

Here is a ping to the same host from a bluetooth connection to my cell phone (connected to an AT&T WCDMA 3G tower):


Certainly not as good as my DSL connection, but no 8-10 second delays either.

--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
-- Thomas Jefferson

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bender @ 29th Oct 07:49PM:
Re: Related Story...

sounds cooler if you say it was all at once.
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dancekat1 @ 29th Oct 07:55PM:
Re: Related Story...

Did I mention they were wearing tactical assault gear? ;) Kidding....
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NetFixer @ 29th Oct 07:55PM:
Re: Related Story...

said by dancekat1 :

Funny things is - the guys in data ops saying this aren't used to talking to customers and were quite frank in admitting where the problem seemed to be.
That is precisely why engineers are not usually allowed to talk to customers.

[att=1]
[att=2]
[att=3]
--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Click for full size
Click for full size
Click for full size
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battleop @ 29th Oct 07:55PM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

Yet you continue to do business with them. If you keep paying and stay a customer they will think nothing is wrong. The only thing they pay attention to is revenue. If revenue were to start dropping someone would notice. If revenue keeps going up then they think they are doing something right.
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funchords @ 29th Oct 08:00PM:
Re: Related Story...

That first cartoon is priceless!
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funchords @ 29th Oct 08:00PM:
Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

actually, the output in my post was from David Reed in Chicago.
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dancekat1 @ 29th Oct 08:01PM:
Re: Related Story...

LMAO!!! Thank you for making my day. Those are great. I never finished engineering school and must have missed that part of class.
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reddy @ 29th Oct 09:28PM:
Internet freedom act FTW!

It's not that they aren't investing in their network because they think they will lose their customers. They aren't investing in their network because they think they are going to win on net neutrality. Once they control what can be transmitted on their network by law (for the children and freedom) there won't be any congestion.

Enjoy your internet then suckers!

Don't forget, you should welcome bandwidth metering and controls. After all, you wouldn't want the electric company to deliver electricity with a fire hose, why would you want that from your internet provider.
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cmaenginsb @ 29th Oct 09:54PM:
Re: Really?

said by Karl Bode :

25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
None of it in wireless, most of it doing PBX work based on his own website. It's like saying a 25 year veteran OBGyn can do the same job as a 25 year brain surgeon.
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber

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cmaenginsb @ 29th Oct 09:55PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

You'd be surprised, I spend a lot of time in Ukraine, in major metro areas wireless is excellent (and they are poorer and less developed than Poland or Romania)
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber

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w4ncr @ 29th Oct 11:28PM:
Re: Internet freedom act FTW!

Nothing surprises me with this company especially way they are set up their southeast headquarters of the old BellSouth their second headquarters in Texas
And two prices for their DSL Service offerings!
I wish offer their customers same service offering in areas where they operate their DSL
Their last conference call they seem to talk a lot about their metro Ethernet for backhaul to cell site's talk little detail about fiber their cell site's my guess very little fiber Installing to them?
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djrobx @ 29th Oct 11:44PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

I'll make it a sample of 2.

Took my iPhone to Sydney, Australia. Unlocked it and put a Telstra SIM in it. I was really impressed by the coverage. I rarely ever saw less than full strength, both inside and outside of the city.

Their customer website really sucked, though. :)
--
AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.

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wierdo @ 30th Oct 02:35AM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by en102 :

They bought separate spectrum for 3G, and didn't attempt to recycle spectrum as AT&T has been doing.
That might have something to do with the regulatory agencies in most of the rest of the world allocating a new band in a reasonable timeframe. The AWS auction didn't happen until long after the US carriers had begun their 3G rollouts. And there still are very few AWS-capable devices.

This is one thing you can't blame at&t for. You can blame them for their pricing, and even their network performance, but you can't blame them for the FCC's decisions. (To some degree you can't even blame the FCC..half of our problem in this country with spectrum harmonization is the military)
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)

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Nerdtalker @ 30th Oct 02:50AM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by TKJunkMail :

said by Chaldo :

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?
And you know that how?
Let's turn that around upon yourself now; how many people do you know that have problems in Europe? Have you ever read a single story about people complaining that O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile (Germany) drops calls constantly, has data that immediately slows to a grind whenever more than 12 people are in a convention center, and generally is all over the place? Because if you have, enlighten me with links. My entire family lives over there, and frankly, they laugh at how pitiful the situation is here in the states.

Let's face it, Europe is years ahead of us when it comes to 3G/HSPA/HSPA+ roll outs. It's almost embarrassing how completely sub par GSM rollouts are (T-Mobile just lit up its 3G network, which is the smallest in the US. AT&T is... AT&T), and CDMA is a dead end bag-of-hurt (I'm glad I jumped ship; being constantly plagued by missing calls when my phone's slot cycle index wasn't set quick enough to poll the 1xRTT network during a data transaction, endless supplies of duplicate SMSes, I could go on and on).

So yeah, Europe has managed to do a pretty good job. But keep in mind, Europe is very urbanized and relatively small in size compared to the relatively huge size of the US. Obviously rolling out lot of 3G GSM-camp coverage is going to take a while. The inexcusable part here is that AT&T is rolling in subscription fees and failing it hard at keeping data flowing for customers.
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Nerdtalker @ 30th Oct 02:55AM:
Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by dynodb :

Be it new cell towers, trunks, etc- it takes money AND time. There is no telcom vending machine in which you insert $200 million dollars and out drops more broadband capacity.
So really the vending machine will gladly take the money, it'll just take a few months for broadband to pop out.

Oh, and in that time, your customers will have simply gone to the cafe across the street and had themselves a latte. A surprisingly apt metaphor for what will happen if AT&T keeps it up.
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Nerdtalker @ 30th Oct 02:57AM:
Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

I still tend to lend the data credence myself.

As soon as I read "bimodal distribution" I thought "A-Ha! Finally someone who sees the same thing I do!"

Honestly, half the time I see either something between 2-8 seconds, or the (as expected) ~200ms latency.

Something is definitely wonky.
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anon @ 30th Oct 06:24AM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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tmpchaos @ 30th Oct 07:30AM:
Re: Really?

said by Karl Bode :

25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
You know they start them young these days, Karl.
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Van @ 30th Oct 09:22AM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

Depends on whether the person has another viable alternative

I attack certain services that I own. In some cases, I am unhappy but not ENOUGH to warrant changing...in others, I just don't have the time/energy to switch

I wish it were easy enough to just flip a switch and change but some companies don't make it that simple and easy
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battleop @ 30th Oct 09:25AM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

By the sounds of what he has there are alternatives.
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mobbo @ 30th Oct 10:04AM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

This is at the company and I am not in the position to make such a decision (to switch). I'm a lowly SysAdmin :) I also think our company signed an agreement. Again, I don't have a corner office, so I can't jump ship...not my call. Believe me, if I could, I would do it in a heartbeat.

On a related note, I did convince the CFO to drop AT&T as our wireless provider :) I was happy about that. Verizon (in this area at least) is soooo much better when it comes to cell/wireless.
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AquaSport @ 31st Oct 02:26AM:
Misconfigured? No...

Seems as if they "MisUnderestimated" the data load on their 3G network when the iPhone was launched. You can't use 1 T-1 link for each 3G tower (as i've heard) - that just won't work. AT&T needed to get their ass in gear earlier than they did to avoid problems. Seems like the executives fell asleep in their piles of money before they had the chance to write a note about network upgrades. GRRRRR!!! ~I'm so totally going with verizon next year... I'll get a touchscreen phone and an iPod touch for music.. SCREW YOU AT&T (and your Bay Area network!!!)!!!!
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anon @ 31st Oct 11:55AM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo :

signal almost everywhere great call quality.
I live in a fairly rural county in the UK, but there most definitely isn't 3G coverage everywhere - it is very very splotchy.

GSM coverage on the other hand is pretty top-notch. Shame about GPRS (EDGE is only supported by a couple of networks, only one has a rollout worth talking about) though.
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Maggs @ 31st Oct 03:44PM:
Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by djrobx :

I'll make it a sample of 2.

Took my iPhone to Sydney, Australia. Unlocked it and put a Telstra SIM in it. I was really impressed by the coverage. I rarely ever saw less than full strength, both inside and outside of the city.

Their customer website really sucked, though. :)
Vodafone on the other hand is a clusterfuck down in Sydney, their CS is off on weekends.
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cameronsfx @ 31st Oct 03:52PM:
Re: AT&T Culture?

said by mobbo :

Trust me...I would have NEVER gone with AT&T if it had been my decision. The upgrade was already in the beginning stages when I was hired on. I would have BEGGED to go with a smaller local company, but I had no pull at the time. Working for AT&T must be a very frustrating job. You have 100 VP's and supervisors over you and so many stupid procedures, you can't get anything done!! I imagine after a while you just give up. That was the vibe I got from all the AT&T techs that came to work on our project. They just didn't give a shit. They probably used to care...but it had been beaten out of them after years of stupid corporate crap.
It is corporate that doesn't care. You probably got some techs that were residential that all the sudden were business techs. Corporate tells them, "Finish this job in x hours or you get written up." They have all kinds of "rules" saying x job can be done in x amount of time that is like half the time required.

I know they ruined BellSouth techs here with those rules. Getting threatened to be fired everyday eventually does make them cut corners. Some are smart and say, "Here's my cell. Call me if it doesn't work." Why? Repeater calls can also get them fired since the company didn't give them time to fix it right in the first place.

The tech I had almost fell over when he say a 4-line jack in my house. A retired tech put them in. But, they put the DSL on the wrong line. I was pulling 4 down on a 1.5 line so told him to leave it alone. He was grateful. His job lasted 15 mins that should've took 1 hour.

Trust me, corporate is the problem. If they let the techs decide how long jobs should take, they'd fix it right the first time. And their supervisors (former techs) know it but the idiot over them doesn't care. Numbers, numbers, numbers. That is why customer service at most companies is in the toilet. Let's sell them something else they don't need instead of fixing the problem.

Funny, a WalMart moves in and they have a team that connects everything from some T-1 or T-3 lines. One I knew said they wired it during construction and once the T-1s were lit, voila! And, their CC machines go through a satellite. Never seen a faster CC machine.
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