Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes - Well golly, if you put it that way...
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Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes Well golly, if you put it that way... (old news - 04:46PM Wednesday May 20 2009) tags: prices · competition · business · hardware · alternatives · bandwidth · Op/Ed · legislation · consumers · caps
Because apparently an organization that spent $14.4 million last year on lobbying just doesn't get enough face time, Ars Technica gives cable lobbyist and NCTA boss Kyle McSlarrow a podium to wax poetic about alternative broadband pricing schemes. During the Time Warner Cable debate over metered billing, McSlarrow played blog patty cake with consumer advocates, proclaiming that Time Warner Cable was simply transparently testing alternative billing models. Ars helps McSlarrow portray a kinder, gentler cable industry: According to McSlarrow, there's no particular rush to pick one business model, and the industry has no "grand plan" hashed out by cigar-smoking executives in clubby back rooms. In his view, though, cable needs to do the experiments to make sure that the Internet survives the coming bandwidth apocalypse. In his view, though, cable needs to do the experiments to make sure that the Internet survives the coming bandwidth apocalypse. -Ars Technica, on NCTA Lobbying boss Kyle McSlarrow |
But Time Warner Cable, one of the NCTA's biggest members, was in a rush. Instead of implementing high caps that targeted just the heaviest users, seemingly detached executives stumbled lustfully for the holy grail of broadband pricing: low caps and high overages that intentionally impact all households, designed to deter and/or monetize competing Internet video delivery. McSlarrow insists to Ars his heart isn't set on any particular model, though you can be damn sure the member companies who pay his salary are drooling over the idea of per-byte billing. McSlarrow doesn't help his case by perpetuating the myth that a bandwidth apocalypse is looming if we don't allow cable operators to freely experiment with charging you more money for less product. The idea that consumers don't want carriers to experiment with better pricing is a myth to begin with. Consumers would be perfectly happy with innovative new pricing -- even caps -- if they see they're not being ripped off and limitations are clear and reasonable. So far, cable operators haven't proposed any pricing schemes that innovate above and beyond the existing flat-rate model. Given cable's history with price hikes, you can't blame consumers for doubting that the cable industry's idea of pricing innovation will serve the consumers' interest. Like every other cable executive, McSlarrow doesn't provide, and Ars doesn't press for, hard data justifying why a move away from the flat-rate billing model is even necessary in the first place -- given the costs to provide broadband are dropping, growth rates are easily manageable, and DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades are relatively inexpensive. We've repeatedly debunked the "Exaflood" as a public relations stunt by broadband carriers and their PR tendrils, yet Mcslarrow quickly trots it out as example number one as to why such "experiments" were necessary. Part of the significant backlash to Time Warner Cable's plan was because the proposed caps were too low and per GB overages were too high, but equal blame can be fixed on Time Warner Cable's apparent assumption that their customers were idiots who couldn't see the carrier's real motivation. McSlarrow continues that fine tradition by insisting that the exploration of new pricing models is simply about discovering what's "best for the consumer," and not about finding a way to monetize and control a coming explosion in HD video delivery for investors. Related:- Product Spotlight - TekSavvy Solutions DSL Service
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- As Verizon Goes, So Goes Metered Billing
- Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
- Verizon's New Wireless Pricing Is An Insult
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
- Wall Street Journal Tries, Fails To Cover Metered Billing Debate
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Anonymous_ @ 20th May 02:52PM:
metered billing means
metered billing means
Public Utilities Commission regulation
heavy government regulation
heavy taxed (per gigabyte) ( two charges like with the power co)
Guaranteed uptime (i get that with the natural GAS /Power/water Co)(THAT MEANS A Fully WORKING DNS SERVER TOO)
NO UPTO on the speed
i do not get UPTO ON natural GAS do i ?
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bgraham @ 20th May 02:56PM:
I know everyone is going to scream but
It depends on the pay as you go price. I jumped from a regular cell to a pay as you go package and saved over $20 a month. See, I am not a big user of cell phones.
If pay as you go internet was decently priced I would go with it. If it's just a way to increase prices, then I have no use for it.
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morbo @ 20th May 03:02PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
you don't really expect them to lower prices for anyone, do you?
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FiOS LIVE @ 20th May 03:05PM:
"Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
The only way a so-called "bandwidth apocalypse" would happen is if the demand for bandwidth increases so fast that the already oversubscribed cable nodes slow to a crawl and under the demand. But that's not really a "bandwidth apocalypse" because only the cable companies refusing to upgrade their network to either less crowded nodes or go FTTH will be affected; the same applies to copper milking DSL telco's.
Interesting how those same companies who fear the "bandwidth apocalypse" are the ones who are going to cause it if it does happen.
--
AT&T + Comcast
Your world. Destroyed.
Throttle and put a cap on it. It's Comcastic!
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winsyrstrife @ 20th May 03:06PM:
Keep it Up TW
Keep at it TW...when it's all said and done, you'll be the pioneers of having made government step in and turn your !#% and all other ISPs !#&es into dumb pipes.
said by Karl Bode :
Instead of implementing high caps that targeted just the heaviest users, seemingly detached executives stumbled lustfully for the holy grail of broadband pricing: low caps and high overages that intentionally impact all households, designed to deter and/or monetize competing Internet video delivery.
LoL, Karl I think that was your high moment when righting this article. Nice creatvity there. :)
--
"Suddenly everything is fainting, falling from a broken ladder's rung. There's a jolt exhilarating from the phone I'm holding...
I hear the words of what I'll become, how eager the hands that reach for love." - Blind Melon - New Life
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me1212 @ 20th May 03:07PM:
Why can't they stop lying....
and treat their costumer like they have a brain? We know they only want to do this to get more money out of us and give us MUCH less, there is no proof that the exaflood is real IF they gave up REAL proof that would be different. If they want to meter why NOT make a real PAYG(we know the answer, money) a $50 for 40GB and 5m and $1 per GB over= fail. If the cablecos must insist that metered billing= the future make it a true PAYG ie $10 for 5m and $0.15(just a random # I thought of) for each GB.
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averagedude @ 20th May 03:08PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
said by bgraham :
It depends on the pay as you go price. I jumped from a regular cell to a pay as you go package and saved over $20 a month. See, I am not a big user of cell phones.
If pay as you go internet was decently priced I would go with it. If it's just a way to increase prices, then I have no use for it.
The opposite of decently is indecent.
The proposed metering pricing was definitely indecent, unseemly, inappropriate, rude, condescending, patronizing, disdainful, and just down right wrong.
Of course no one would have a problem with reasonable pricing, but that is not what they did thus the fuss.
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baineschile @ 20th May 03:09PM:
Re: metered billing means
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
Until Broadband becomes a utility, we have to deal with a competitive, capitalistic market; which means that if a company want to do caps and overages, thats what we will have to deal with (or go to a different company)
Also, your claim that it was to deter internet video; if that was the case, why would FiOs even bother having TV service if broadband and IPTV is the future? I will give you that no company has supported data that shows they SHOULD have caps; but that doesnt mean the sole reason is to deter competition.
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me1212 @ 20th May 03:15PM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
"Interesting how those same companies who fear the "bandwidth apocalypse" are the ones who are going to cause it if it does happen."
Yup, if it happens they will cause it so they can get more money. Why does it seem all they care about is their pocket book? Why must they be out to skrew us? Why can they not treat us like what we are, their life blood if it weren't for us they would die.
If they over subed less it would help, network upgrades(comcast will be ALL docsis 3 by the end of next year), ya know the stuff that would make them *gasp* make money just a bit more slowly. Cable vision and FiOS can go with out caps y can't other ISPs? Heck even the WISP I subscribe to has no cap.
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Luminaris @ 20th May 03:17PM:
Re: metered billing means
Well, I think what Karl means is, given a household has a 40 Gig cap per say, that cap is still there. Most households, (at least in my area) have smaller kids that will eventually use their internet which means, more of it used. Plus with the amount of video, ads etc. on each page, people don't realize just how much they actually download.
So in essence, yes, it does effect most or all households in a way.
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neowulf @ 20th May 03:17PM:
Re: metered billing means
I also no longer want to pay for banner ads, or any ads for that matter as I would then now be paying for those ads...
Metered billing would turn the internet into a very boring place, think of all the flash sites, or graphics or innovating that would be killed by having to watch how much bandwidth you consume. Heck I am wasting bandwidth right now by being here!
They are trying to tout this as saving the internet, or they talk about it how grandma is subsidizing the heavy users, and that grandma shouldn't have to pay because you watch hulu.
Yet in the end even TWC plan was to charge grandma what she was paying if she just checked her email, but if she downloaded that video of her grand kids she better be ready to pay more then what she was before she was saved by TWC from those heavy users.
So in the end grandma is going to be paying more then she is now, so who exactly are they helping out here? Don't answer that I already know.
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banditws6 @ 20th May 03:18PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
Your story makes sense. My wife recently did the same thing. She hardly ever uses her cell phone, but I want her to at least have one because we ditched our landline and I need the ability to communicate with her while I am out. So she got a TracFone. Honestly, it is perfect.
The problem, though, is that in areas where cable companies has moved to metered billing, I don't often see cheaper plans being offered for those who use less. As far as I can tell, the cable companies only seek to set limits on what we already have and charge above and beyond for usage that, today, is acceptable -- and ignore the other side of the equation, which is offering more cost-effective options to people who use less. If people moving insane amounts of data are impacting the network, I think they should be penalized on an individual basis -- since this is likely to impact the network differently depending on the robustness of the plant in each local area.
I mostly see the metered billing argument not as a "get what you pay for" plan, but as a "pay more when you aren't using your connection the way the ISP thinks you should use it" plan. In most cases, the ISP does not have altruistic intentions behind its definition of how you should use its service. It wants to maximize its profits by, for example, having you use their own video-on-demand service instead of watching online.
Case in point: As a consumer, I have decided that the Scientific Atlanta set-top equipment offered by my cable company is horrendous (it would be hard to disagree, I think) and so I purchased a TiVo. My TiVo does not have VoD capability. Instead, I use Netflix instant streaming. To then be penalized on the bandwidth side effectively because the cable company's hardware offering is terrible rubs me the wrong way. I am grateful that my ISP (Comcast) has set a soft cap with a realistic ceiling, so I am not likely to be adversely affected at this time. By comparison, Time Warner's proposed caps bordered on the criminally insane.
While private companies have every right to make moves like this, customers have every right to dislike it and even see it for what it is: a money grab. And ultimately, they have the right to stop doing business with that company -- although therein lies the rub, thanks to the fact that where broadband exists, there are often few (if any) realistic competitive options.
--
"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent
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me1212 @ 20th May 03:20PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by neowulf :
I also no longer want to pay for banner ads, or any ads for that matter as I would then now be paying for those ads...
Metered billing would turn the internet into a very boring place, think of all the flash sites, or graphics or innovating that would be killed by having to watch how much bandwidth you consume. Heck I am wasting bandwidth right now by being here!
They are trying to tout this as saving the internet, or they talk about it how grandma is subsidizing the heavy users, and that grandma shouldn't have to pay because you watch hulu.
Yet in the end even TWC plan was to charge grandma what she was paying if she just checked her email, but if she downloaded that video of her grand kids she better be ready to pay more then what she was before she was saved by TWC from those heavy users.
So in the end grandma is going to be paying more then she is now, so who exactly are they helping out here? Don't answer that I already know.
That is one reason I dislike this metered crap so much. If they want metered may it a real PAYG.
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beerbum @ 20th May 03:21PM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
The only "Apocalypse" that exists (in their minds) is those alternate delivery methods of TV and video services - and THAT and that alone is what the cable companies want to stop dead in its tracks.
Bandwidth expenses == are a lie
Hardware costs, upgrades and new == are a lie
Running out of bandwidth == a lie
Every excuse given by any cable company officer / executive is a flat out lie to distract everybody from the one thing they fear..
They fear losing their monopoly on video delivery services - it is the only thing that drives them.
I recall one cable executive - from Comcast - his stated goal when the video on demand was deployed - was to put Blockbuster out of business. Guess what, Blockbuster is on the verge of bankruptcy.
The next fight will be over video delivery - and they will do anything to win.
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me1212 @ 20th May 03:25PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
"thanks to the fact that where broadband exists, there are often few (if any) realistic competitive options."
True we NEED more competition and we NEED to get rid of the monopolies/ duopolies and get said competition. Mostly we need content providers to stop masquerading as internet companies and get some real ISPs that care about their costumer.
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Matt @ 20th May 03:26PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
Time Warner's caps were as low as 5GB with a $1 per GB in overage charges. They were taking their unlimited tiers and capping them at 5GB, 10GB, 20GB and 40GB. 40GB (until the backlash) was the highest tier they offered - for a whopping $60 a month.
After the backlash they offered to cap overage charges, which means if you pay $150 a month you can have the same product you have right now for $45 or so. They then offered a 1GB tier with a $2 per GB overage. Nice.
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Desdinova @ 20th May 03:27PM:
Hmmm...
I still don't get how anyone with a brain can buy into the exaflood thing. The ISP's are warning us that the 'net's about to crash and they don't want that to happen, but the only way it COULD happen is if they continue to oversell their networks so it DOES happen. If such a crash were truely imminent they could just say "Sorry, no more room on the 'net" and stop selling access.
The whole exaflood seems to be like a party being held in a loft with a flimsy floor and the guy at the door hosting the party is on the phone with police screaming, "Hey, the building's about to collapse from too much weight so you better send someone over here to make all the partygoers go on a diet."
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 03:32PM:
The NCTA is the RIAA of cable...
...and you're surprised that McSlarrow is not completely honest and forthcoming?
Really?
:uhh:
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me1212 @ 20th May 03:32PM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
"Bandwidth expenses == are a lie"
Yup it costs about 20% less than it did last year.
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hayabusa3303 @ 20th May 03:32PM:
here we go again, round how many now?
subject says it all.
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DaveNJ @ 20th May 03:41PM:
Where is that picture from?
Every time he uses that picture next to an article, where is it from?
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fireflier @ 20th May 03:45PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
1. Most internet users are still below 40GB huh? Your statistics to support this can be found where? I'm not a a constant video downloader/gamer/traffic user but my router shows I'm hitting 40+/month. If your definition of "most" internet users are grandmothers who check email, then your claim could be correct but the definition is not. Remember, part of that 40GB consists of various OS patches (along with patches for endless numbers of software packages), Game system updates, etc. And if a person has multiple PCs with similar configuration then it's a x2, x3, x4 scenario. Many households do have more than one PC now.
2. 40GB was TWCs HIGHEST tier at one point in their "suggested" new pricing structure unless you wanted the uber supermondoall-you-can-eat tier for a ridiculous $100 or so a month. 5GB per month for the lower tiers WILL affect MANY households which will force them to higher tiers. It will also become a bigger problem to people as additional bandwidth-using apps appear. I didn't see anything from TWCs spin doctors claiming they'd promise to raise those caps as needs required.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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fireflier @ 20th May 03:51PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
That's exactly the problem. They want pay-as-you go but they want to start at the price point they're at now rather than dropping it to represent the barebones cost requirements for providing raw services on top of which you'd pay the added usage charges. That would be more reasonable but to start with the current costs as a base point and go upwards is idiotic.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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Qixotl @ 20th May 03:51PM:
Re: Where is that picture from?
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_S···l-Sahhaf
»www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/
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Anonymous_ @ 20th May 03:55PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by fireflier :said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
1. Most internet users are still below 40GB huh? Your statistics to support this can be found where? I'm not a a constant video downloader/gamer/traffic user but my router shows I'm hitting 40+/month. If your definition of "most" internet users are grandmothers who check email, then your claim could be correct but the definition is not. Remember, part of that 40GB consists of various OS patches (along with patches for endless numbers of software packages), Game system updates, etc. And if a person has multiple PCs with similar configuration then it's a x2, x3, x4 scenario. Many households do have more than one PC now.
2. 40GB was TWCs HIGHEST tier at one point in their "suggested" new pricing structure unless you wanted the uber supermondoall-you-can-eat tier for a ridiculous $100 or so a month. 5GB per month for the lower tiers WILL affect MANY households which will force them to higher tiers. It will also become a bigger problem to people as additional bandwidth-using apps appear. I didn't see anything from TWCs spin doctors claiming they'd promise to raise those caps as needs required.
heh but if you got more then one person using it you can use upto 400GB permonth
cable modem Noise Traffic is 5GB to 6GB all ready
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hottboiinnc @ 20th May 03:59PM:
Re: metered billing means
Many water companies and power companies are not regulated as they're a co-op within cities. The States do not regulate them for the most part. And they can do what they want.
If you didn't know that go find the story where the person was killed in their home this last winter from a Muni-owned power company.
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hottboiinnc @ 20th May 04:00PM:
Re: metered billing means
If you don't want banner ads you will create a 2tier internet or you will start paying for each website you go to.
The ISPs do not put the banners in, the website owners do.
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Bit @ 20th May 04:01PM:
If I bribed politicians with $14.4M I'd go to jail
It's time to send the NCTA leadership to federal prison for their bribery and cable (and telco) execs to prison for their RICO violations.
It's time that the gov't be of the people, for the people instead of just billed to the people.
--
POKE 65495,1
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hottboiinnc @ 20th May 04:02PM:
ATT
Hmmmm....Again I don't see anything about ATT in this story or in the comments. Remember ATT is one of the biggest ISPs that already are doing the trials. Nobody has any problems with that. it's only TWC, Frontier, and Comcast that people have the problems with.
Maybe if all the other providers changed their name to ATT they'd get a break too.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:03PM:
Re: Where is that picture from?
LOL, you don't now who Baghdad Bob is?
The guy was saying they had won the war and defeated the American army all the way when the Americans were at the palace doorstep!
Here's a funny pic off the internet:
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Bit @ 20th May 04:05PM:
Re: ATT
You just see what you choose to see
»/nsearch?q=AT%···cat=news
--
POKE 65495,1
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 04:07PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
Every corporation's shareholders are its customers. The "costumer" you refer to they refer to as "consumers". Those are merely a resource used in pursuit of profit. And like any production resource you try to spend as little for it while maximizing its utility.
Don't think for a second what you want ever enters into that equation. The only exception is where the consumers own the company, commonly known as a co-op.
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me1212 @ 20th May 04:08PM:
Re: ATT
That may be because this article is about calbecos not telcos.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:12PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
I wish people would stop saying this crap. If you don't treat consumers right they walk.
Theirs a reason why alot of corporations are failing and it's due to the fact they forgot that the fucking customer is always right.
Not to mention that most executives now are highly incompetent and only care about their next paycheck.
If the person who I'm quoting is saying what they said based on today's business executives, I'd agree, but this is not how a competent business is run.
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DaveNJ @ 20th May 04:12PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Until Broadband becomes a utility, we have to deal with a competitive, capitalistic market; which means that if a company want to do caps and overages, thats what we will have to deal with (or go to a different company)
So your against higher speeds, and corporate competition for customers, in favor of a government run, non -competitive, market ?
--
They Live... We Sleep...
Spreading the wealth around never results in a better outcome for people. It always results in destruction.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:14PM:
Re: metered billing means
I'd love to see actual graphs on how much people use. I'm willing to bet the majority of users are 3 times higher then 40 gig.
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bjbrock @ 20th May 04:15PM:
Nationalize the Broadband Infrastructure.
I don't care who built it with whose dollars. It is time the federal government stepped in and nationalized ALL broadband infrastructure. Totally take away any corporate control over the delivery of bandwidth. Only the delivery of services should be used in their business. This is the only way to put everybody on a level playing field.
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Mr Matt @ 20th May 04:18PM:
A modest proposal.
:( After the cable parasites stop playing with themselves and playing with the minds of consumers and regulators they could play with metered billing. I propose that the Cable Companies be required to start out with a test year. Customers would not be charged for the amount of data transmitted or received but their broadband bill should include the following information:
1) Bytes downloaded.
2) Bytes uploaded.
3) The IP address and name of the owner of every server that downloaded data to the account.
4) The IP address and name of the owner of every server that data was uploaded to from the account.
5) The amount the customer would have paid if metered billing was in effect.
On items 1 to 4 the usage statistics should be monitored and provided by a disinterested third party other than the ISP.
By employing a test year, customers and ISP's would have the opportunity to work out billing issues. The detailed data usage statement would give a broadband customer same opportunity to examine their broadband usage, that a telephone customer has to examine their long distance charges. If ISP's argue that doing this is to hard, they should remember that they retain this data under government regulations. The whole process could be paperless like a telephone bill. Customers can download a comma delimited file and import it into a spreadsheet file. The customer could sort the data to see how much data was downloaded by a parasitic website like double-click and where the data came from or was sent to.
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 04:18PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
Quit saying what crap? It's the ugly truth especially when you have an oligopoly controlling the market. There are precious few places where you have enough provider choice to influence their behavior. The consumer is mostly faced with one provider or nothing. Where do expect them to walk to?
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wifi4milez @ 20th May 04:23PM:
Re: Nationalize the Broadband Infrastructure.
said by bjbrock :
I don't care who built it with whose dollars. It is time the federal government stepped in and nationalized ALL broadband infrastructure. Totally take away any corporate control over the delivery of bandwidth. Only the delivery of services should be used in their business. This is the only way to put everybody on a level playing field.
No thanks, my taxes are HIGH enough already....... :mad:
--
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
-Ronald Reagan-
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:29PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
Yes, well your talking about monopolies/doupolies, and then saying EVERY corporations shareholders is it's customers.
Any decent corporation would plan for their future. You can't please the customers, and they aren't your friends, but one thing you don't do is piss them off.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:31PM:
Re: A modest proposal.
Well, you can honestly do this now, just actually count up what people use.
And all this would do is give the cable executives an ability to make up stats.
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 04:35PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
What gets a CEO walking papers faster? Disgruntled consumers or disgruntled shareholders?
What is one of the biggest downward pressures on a stock? Falling prices.
A disgruntled but paying customer with no where else to go is considered an asset. They are often the biggest asset of a company in bankruptcy.
Unless there are many players from which to choose the customers piss level is rarely considered.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 04:43PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
Just wait for the executives to steal all the money. Then both shareholders and customers would be pissed as hell.
Again, your talking corrupt executives and monopolies. This sort of crap excist outside of the free market.
Not only that, but the executives you refer to don't care about the shareholders either. If anything, they care about their golden parachutes.
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 04:54PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
Stealing the money is illegal. Providing poor service in the name of profit is not. Try another straw man.
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axiomatic @ 20th May 04:56PM:
Re: metered billing means
I still disagree. Let the "websight owners" fight these caps to get their advertisements back then. Regardless its not the END USERS responsibility, period. We don;t want the ad's therefore we are DEFINITELY not paying for them to be transmitted to our houses over our capped lines.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 04:57PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by neowulf :
I also no longer want to pay for banner ads, or any ads for that matter as I would then now be paying for those ads...
Ad Block Plus for Firefox or IE7pro for IE.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 05:06PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
said by RadioDoc :
.
Don't think for a second what you want ever enters into that equation.
Of course, what the consumer/customer wants is important, because without any customers there is no profit. But a company's goal can't be ecstatic customers at the expense of a profit. There is a balance between making the customer happy and also making a profit as well. Many here make nonsensical statements like the "customer is always right". Well the customer isn't always right when what the customer wants(like many childish people that post in these forums) is something for nothing. They have to grow up and realize that you never get something for nothing - there is ALWAYS a cost. It is just that that cost is sometimes hidden, like what the government does with indirect taxes. That is, tax a company and pretend the citizens don't actually pay that tax in the end.
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 05:11PM:
Re: If I bribed politicians with $14.4M I'd go to jail
Hell, that's just their trade association. Add in the $12.5 million that Comcast spent, $8.2 million from Time Warner, etc. and it now we're talking over $40 million to lobby the folks who are supposed to be watching over these bastards.
The U.S. Telecom Association (the telco equivalent to the NCTA), on the other hand, is a piker at $2.8 million
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morbo @ 20th May 05:13PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
Clearly this is a troll post.
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morbo @ 20th May 05:16PM:
Re: ATT
said by hottboiinnc :
Maybe if all the other providers changed their name to ATT they'd get a break too.
where have you been? AT&T dsl and u-verse is doing cap trials as we speak. they aren't off the hook. plus, that whole "spying on all citizens in the u.s. via the NSA" thing is still around.
reply
neowulf @ 20th May 05:16PM:
Re: metered billing means
Already use, and there are ads that still get through. But that is besides the point, once you meter something it should be the responsibility of the company that meters to make sure garbage no longer gets through.
TWC wants all the gravy of what metered billing brings, but wants no added responsibility.
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RadioDoc @ 20th May 05:16PM:
Re: Why can't they stop lying....
True. I was simplifying it, obviously. Most companies judge what their customers want by how well it sells or by focus group research, etc. But I don't think I've ever seen that trump shareholder's "wants" for a higher stock price.
Not saying it is the best thing for everyone...just an observation of how things usually work. It would be peachy-keen if corporations lived to serve the consuming masses but that's not how our economy is set up. Thank god.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 05:17PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by morbo :said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
Clearly this is a troll post.
Why. He tells the truth. Just not a truth you want to hear or let be heard.
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espaeth @ 20th May 05:23PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by Anonymous_ :
cable modem Noise Traffic is 5GB to 6GB all ready
The noise traffic is broadcast traffic, and shouldn't be counted against the unicast byte counters per associated MAC on the CMTS. I've had some "drive time" on the Cisco uBR CMTS in the lab, and that traffic is definitely excluded from the reported individual modem/MAC byte totals on that platform.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 05:33PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :said by Anonymous_ :
cable modem Noise Traffic is 5GB to 6GB all ready
The noise traffic is broadcast traffic, and shouldn't be counted against the unicast byte counters per associated MAC on the CMTS. I've had some "drive time" on the Cisco uBR CMTS in the lab, and that traffic is definitely excluded from the reported individual modem/MAC byte totals on that platform.
And if it was counted, the background noise runs about 10 kbps based on my router WAN statistics. That comes to about 3.24 GB/month »www23.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=···000+bits & not 5 or 6 as claimed.
[att=1]
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axiomatic @ 20th May 05:39PM:
Re: metered billing means
I agree with neowulf, no one said we could not block the ad's. It's that in such a tightly metered bill if we the customer don't want the ad's period, they should no longer be transmitted to us because we can not control the size, cost, or ad cycle frequency of the advertisement banner.
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espaeth @ 20th May 05:49PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by fireflier :
1. Most internet users are still below 40GB huh? Your statistics to support this can be found where?
These statistics can be found various places. The MINTS project, for example, cites approximately 5GB per capita on average in the US for Internet traffic.
said by fireflier :
If your definition of "most" internet users are grandmothers who check email, then your claim could be correct but the definition is not.
The median traffic usage level for most ISPs in the US and Europe is somewhere in the 2-5GB/mo range. That means that at least 50% of the subscriber base is using 2-5GB/mo or less. These numbers have been published in closed-data sources like those from Comcast, open statistics from major ISPs in Japan, and by research groups like MINTS.
You have to realize that as a member of this site, you're not representative of most broadband customers.
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JamesPC @ 20th May 05:55PM:
Re: metered billing means
Its not the truth, just a speculation.
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JamesPC @ 20th May 05:57PM:
Re: metered billing means
Very good points neowolf.
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anon @ 20th May 06:05PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
said by banditws6 :
The problem, though, is that in areas where cable companies has moved to metered billing, I don't often see cheaper plans being offered for those who use less.
And that's the most annoying thing about what TW was trying to do. They had no intention of making changes for "the consumer". Any billing model change that TW makes is going to be designed to increase their profits. I would have had a little more respect for them if they admitted that fact (but only a little).
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hottboiinnc @ 20th May 06:07PM:
Re: ATT
When ever there is anything about caps the Cable Cos are the ones that get all the attention on this site. ATT doesn't get shit. ATT may have an article maybe every few months regarding they're considering expanding. They also don't have "news site" called StopTheCap that talks about them capping. They only talk about TWC and claim they're the reason behind they decided not to cap.
Sounds like ATT is sending more money into this site just like Google and VZ.
ATT also only spies on you if you use their services or your data hits their centers. If you don't use them you don't have any problems. I don't use them so I don't have any problems.
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espaeth @ 20th May 06:08PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by JamesPC :
Its not the truth, just a speculation.
The statistical data is on his side that most people use far less than 40GB.
I'm not saying that some (maybe even as much as 10-15% of subscribers) don't use more, but the data simply doesn't support the position that average usage is over 40GB/mo. Even in South Korea where Internet traffic growth has been explosive, they are still only looking at about 20GB/mo per capita for Internet usage. Clearly there are folks that use a vast amount more than that, but they are more than offset by the massive number of people at the low-end of the usage spectrum.
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hottboiinnc @ 20th May 06:09PM:
Re: ATT
And that was old news. you don't see Karl out covering more "news" about them like the Cable Companies where he spins their words into what he thinks is "news" to have a few more hits on here.
reply
Transmaster @ 20th May 06:10PM:
It all for the Money
Money makes the world go around
The world go around
The world go around
Money makes the world go around
It makes the world go 'round.
A mark, a yen, a buck, or a pound
A buck or a pound
A buck or a pound
Is all that makes the world go around,
That clinking clanking sound
Can make the world go 'round.
[GIRLS]
Money money money money money money
Money money money money money money
Money money money money money money
Money money
[EMCEE]
If you happen
To be rich,
[GIRLS]
.......Ooooh
[EMCEE]
And you feel like a
Night's enetertainment,
[GIRLS]
...Money
[EMCEE]
You can pay for a
Gay escapade.
[GIRLS]
Money money
Money money
Money money
Money money
[EMCEE]
If you happen to
To be rich,
[GIRLS]
.......Ooooh
[EMCEE]
And alone, and you
Need a companion
[GIRLS]
...Money
[EMCEE]
You can ring-ting-
A-ling for the maid.
[EMCEE]
If you happen
To be rich
[GIRLS]
.....Ooooh
[EMCEE]
And you find you are
Left by your lover,
[GIRLS]
...Money
[EMCEE]
Though you moan
And you groan
Quite a lot,
[GIRLS]
Money money
Money money
Money money
Money money
[EMCEE]
You can take it
On the chin,
[GIRLS]
.....Ooooh
[EMCEE]
Call a cab,
And begin
[GIRLS]
...Money
[EMCEE]
To recover
On your fourteen-
Carat yacht.
[EMCEE]
Money makes the world go around,
The world go around,
The world go around,
Money makes the world go around,
Of that we can be sure.
(....) on being poor.
[ALL]
Money money money-
money money money
Money money money-
money money money
Money money money money money money
Money money money money money money
Money money money money money money
[DANCE BREAK]
[EMCEE AND GIRLS (In Canon)]
If you haven't any coal in the stove
And you freeze in the winter
And you curse on the wind
At your fate
When you haven't any shoes
On your feet
And your coat's thin as paper
And you look thirty pounds
Underweight.
When you go to get a word of advice
From the fat little pastor
He will tell you to love evermore.
But when hunger comes a rap,
Rat-a-tat, rat-a-tat at the window...
[GIRLS]
At the window...
[EMCEE (spoken)]
Who's there?
[GIRLS (spoken)]
Hunger!
[EMCEE (Spoken)]
Ooh, hunger!
See how love flies out the door...
For
[EMCEE]
Money makes
The world...
[GIRLS]
...Go around
[EMCEE]
The world...
[GIRLS]
...Go around
[EMCEE]
The world...
[GIRLS]
...Go around
[EMCEE]
Money makes the
.... Go around
[GIRLS]
...Go around
That clinking
Clanking sound of
Money money money money money money
Money money money money money money
[EMCEE]
Get a little,
[GIRLS]
Money money
[EMCEE]
Get a little,
[GIRLS]
Money money
[EMCEE]
Money money
[GIRLS]
Money money
[EMCEE]
Money money
[GIRLS]
Money money
[EMCEE]
Mark, a yen, a buck
[GIRLS]
Get a little
[EMCEE]
Or a pound
[GIRLS]
Get a little
[EMCEE]
That clinking clanking
[GIRLS]
Get a little
Get a little
[EMCEE]
Clinking sound
[GIRLS]
Money money
Money money...
[EMCEE]
Is all that makes
The world go 'round
[GIRLS]
Money money
Money money
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
reply
sbrook @ 20th May 06:16PM:
Why do they have to experiment?
They have consumption data and they know what people say they are willing to spend on internet, and they know what the demand usage is likely to be in the future.
They can do the arithmetic!
This "experiment" is solely to "See what the market will bear" or rather to seehow much they can get away with gougeing the public!
reply
JamesPC @ 20th May 06:18PM:
Re: metered billing means
True, even though most of the statistical data is not accurate or could be manipulated.
With all that is said on both sides, why limit growth? And in my opinion this will kill the internet. But I dont think the consumer will let it happen unless the broadband companies want to go out of business. As soon as they try this in my market, bye TWC. This is nothing more than greed of a corporation.
reply
S_engineer @ 20th May 06:22PM:
Re: metered billing means
So then if the best interest of the consumer was in the mind of the cablecos...then why not price ala carte? That would drop those 5gig users to about $8 a month and those vicious bandwidth hogs would be on the hook for what they use!
The more they pay the less they use...then the cablecos would reclaim some of that precious bandwidth they're supposedly losing.
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BF69 @ 20th May 06:22PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
A) Doesn't affect them NOW. Usage per household is growing exponentially. Within a few years 40 GB will be nothing for most.
B) TW caps were as low as 5 GB and that DOES affect most households.
Until Broadband becomes a utility, we have to deal with a competitive, capitalistic market; which means that if a company want to do caps and overages, thats what we will have to deal with (or go to a different company)
That would be nice if there was an actual free market. There isn't and if you think there is you're deluded. Just because I own the only gas station around for miles doesn't mean I can legally charge $100 a gallon for gas.
Also, your claim that it was to deter internet video; if that was the case, why would FiOs even bother having TV service if broadband and IPTV is the future? I will give you that no company has supported data that shows they SHOULD have caps; but that doesnt mean the sole reason is to deter competition.
Sure it does. Say if I decide to cut my cable and go with watch all TV thru Hulu and other legal internet sources. Now say I want to watch them in HD. The average person watches 151 hours of TV a month. 151 hours at 2 Mbps stream is 130 GB a month and that's if you're a 1 person household and don't have any other internet useage( which is doubtful ). Now you have a 40 GB cap so you are 90 GB over which TW will charge you $90. Well that's more expensive than cable. So the incentive to cut cable is now gone. If that isn't deterring internet video I'm not sure what is.
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Dolgan @ 20th May 06:22PM:
Re: ATT
quote:
ATT also only spies on you if you use their services or your data hits their centers. If you don't use them you don't have any problems. I don't use them so I don't have any problems.
At least some, if not a majority, of your calls will hit/ride AT&T's network at some point in their travels throughout the US. Once your call hits their network it will be subjected to the same scrutiny as a call that originates on their network. Therefore, you could have more problems than you might have thought originally.
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BF69 @ 20th May 06:24PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by TKJunkMail :And if it was counted, the background noise runs about 10 kbps based on my router WAN statistics. That comes to about 3.24 GB/month »
www23.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=···000+bits & not 5 or 6 as claimed.
[att=1]
And if you have a 5 GB cap that's 65% of your cap.
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JamesPC @ 20th May 06:26PM:
Re: metered billing means
Ya, like my MLB.tv. Which i watch alot of different games legally.
The best part is that we talk about it likes it costs them alot for bandwidth. There marketing budgets are more than there bandwidth costs.
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Bit @ 20th May 06:30PM:
Re: ATT
Because we don't see AT&T in everyone's face constantly like we see cable industry spokesholes endlessly blogging, giving interviews, etc.
If you see AT&T asswipes trying to justify caps, submit the blog, interview or whatever to Karl, he'll put it up just as he has done many times before.
IOW, if the cable hacks would keep their mouths shut, they wouldn't get near the attention they get.
--
POKE 65495,1
reply
BF69 @ 20th May 06:33PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :These statistics can be found various places. The
MINTS project, for example, cites approximately 5GB per capita on average in the US for Internet traffic.
And of course it will stay 5 GB forever. Um have you noticed the ads for Hulu on TV a lot? What happens as more and more peole start using that. I have a subscription to MLB.tv where I can watch live games on the internet. They even have them in HD at 3 Mbps stream. Watching my favorite team play their 26 games a month will use 100 GB. I wouldn't consider watching 1 baseball game a day excessive.
You link also eldues to a 50% yearly increase. Within 5 years that's 38 GB per month average. Within 8 years it's 128 GB average. Within 12 years it's 649 GB average.
By the way how come no cap on TV watching? How much bandwidth am I using when I'm watching that average 151 hours of TV per month?
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espaeth @ 20th May 06:36PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by JamesPC :
True, even though most of the statistical data is not accurate or could be manipulated.
Sure, stats can be manipulated, but there are enough different sources out there that all come to similar numbers that it would require worldwide collusion at this point. The conclusions about an "Internet Meltdown" are obviously sensationalized; companies will change pricing and work harder on better QoS techniques long before it gets to that point.
said by JamesPC :
With all that is said on both sides, why limit growth?
I don't think anybody really wants to limit growth... as long as people are willing to pay for it. That's really the crux of the argument, people are expecting providers to upgrade their networks at a loss -- and that just isn't ever going to happen.
said by JamesPC :
This is nothing more than greed of a corporation.
These companies exist for the sole purpose to make money. They will offer any product you could possibly want, as long as there is a return on their investment and effort. If profitability cannot be maintained, the only option is to shut down the company.
That is, of course, until non-profit entities like the United Way and UNICEF get into the business of building broadband networks.
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anon @ 20th May 06:37PM:
same old crap cap
fuck them all fine some one better
reply
JamesPC @ 20th May 06:38PM:
Re: metered billing means
They are more than profitable now. This is all a scheme to pretend that the internet is melting down, and the truth is that its running just fine.
»www.google.com/finance?q=comcast
»www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TWC
reply
espaeth @ 20th May 06:41PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by S_engineer :
So then if the best interest of the consumer was in the mind of the cablecos...then why not price ala carte? That would drop those 5gig users to about $8 a month and those vicious bandwidth hogs would be on the hook for what they use!
For the same reason you can't offer $300k in auto insurance for $1/mo for the people who don't file a claim in a year. The system isn't sustainable if you drop the base price to $8, unless your folks using more than 5GB/mo are willing to kick in hundreds of dollars to re-balance the system.
said by S_engineer :
The more they pay the less they use...then the cablecos would reclaim some of that precious bandwidth they're supposedly losing.
It's not quite that simple. Subscriber monthly fees * {x} subscribers buys {y} amount of bandwidth. The problem is when the demand of {x} subscribers exceeds the amount of capacity {y} that can be built out using that money. The numbers are constantly shifting.
reply
espaeth @ 20th May 06:56PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by BF69 :
And of course it will stay 5 GB forever. Um have you noticed the ads for Hulu on TV a lot? What happens as more and more peole start using that.
You start having a lot more indicators popping up about how the current model isn't sustainable.
Insurance rates are based on statistical evaluation of past events. What do you suppose the impact would be to home owners insurance rates if instead of a major hurricane every few years to having, say, 2 major high-claim hurricanes a season? Pricing will need to adjust to new reality of the situation.
The argument made here is that your usage should be able to dramatically increase, but your monthly bill should stay the same or be lower. That position has obvious inconsistencies with reality.
said by BF69 :
I have a subscription to MLB.tv where I can watch live games on the internet. They even have them in HD at 3 Mbps stream. Watching my favorite team play their 26 games a month will use 100 GB. I wouldn't consider watching 1 baseball game a day excessive.
Sure, but MLB.tv had around 500,000 subscribers last year, out of 200-some million broadband subscribers in the US. That's practically a rounding error in the grand scheme of Internet statistics.
said by BF69 :
You link also eldues to a 50% yearly increase. Within 5 years that's 38 GB per month average. Within 8 years it's 128 GB average. Within 12 years it's 649 GB average.
5 years is a long way away. 5 years ago we were just being introduced to the first DOCSIS 2.0 hardware that was capable of turning the 9mbps shared upstream into 27mbps shared upstream on cable plants. Keep in mind that is average growth; the demand of some folks is significantly greater than that year-to-year.
said by BF69 :
By the way how come no cap on TV watching? How much bandwidth am I using when I'm watching that average 151 hours of TV per month?
Because broadcast TV is infinitely more efficient. There are a vast array of one-way delivery technologies (OTA ATSC, QAM, 8PSK/QPSK, etc) that are able to push massive amounts of content to your house economically. 2-way systems are more expensive, and have the detractor of having to manage separate flows per viewer.
Broadcast TV is easy to plan for, the downstream bitrate is constant no matter how many viewers there are, and efficiently only goes up when more people are watching the same thing at the same time.
reply
Metatron2008 @ 20th May 07:05PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :said by BF69 :
And of course it will stay 5 GB forever. Um have you noticed the ads for Hulu on TV a lot? What happens as more and more peole start using that.
You start having a lot more indicators popping up about how the current model isn't sustainable.
Insurance rates are based on statistical evaluation of past events. What do you suppose the impact would be to home owners insurance rates if instead of a major hurricane every few years to having, say, 2 major high-claim hurricanes a season? Pricing will need to adjust to new reality of the situation.
The argument made here is that your usage should be able to dramatically increase, but your monthly bill should stay the same or be lower. That position has obvious inconsistencies with reality.
said by BF69 :
I have a subscription to MLB.tv where I can watch live games on the internet. They even have them in HD at 3 Mbps stream. Watching my favorite team play their 26 games a month will use 100 GB. I wouldn't consider watching 1 baseball game a day excessive.
Sure, but
MLB.tv had around 500,000 subscribers last year, out of 200-some million broadband subscribers in the US. That's practically a rounding error in the grand scheme of Internet statistics.
said by BF69 :
You link also eldues to a 50% yearly increase. Within 5 years that's 38 GB per month average. Within 8 years it's 128 GB average. Within 12 years it's 649 GB average.
5 years is a long way away. 5 years ago we were just being introduced to the first DOCSIS 2.0 hardware that was capable of turning the 9mbps shared upstream into 27mbps shared upstream on cable plants. Keep in mind that is
average growth; the demand of some folks is
significantly greater than that year-to-year.
said by BF69 :
By the way how come no cap on TV watching? How much bandwidth am I using when I'm watching that average 151 hours of TV per month?
Because broadcast TV is infinitely more efficient. There are a vast array of one-way delivery technologies (OTA ATSC, QAM, 8PSK/QPSK, etc) that are able to push massive amounts of content to your house economically. 2-way systems are more expensive, and have the detractor of having to manage separate flows per viewer.
Broadcast TV is easy to plan for, the downstream bitrate is constant no matter how many viewers there are, and efficiently only goes up when more people are watching the same thing at the same time.
The current business model is unsunstainable?
So we should send them more money huh? The same way we sent telcos tariffs for years so they would build out FTTP, and they did nothing but keep the money?
Who do you work for?
Sorry to say this, but if they kept a majority of payments to themselves, instead of using WHAT WE ALREADY PAID to build new infastructure, and the internet didn't die, it won't.
reply
PittsPgh @ 20th May 07:06PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by TKJunkMail :said by neowulf :
I also no longer want to pay for banner ads, or any ads for that matter as I would then now be paying for those ads...
Ad Block Plus for Firefox or IE7pro for IE.
Wouldn't matter what you use to block the ads. They still hit your modem.
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Core0000 @ 20th May 07:07PM:
Hasn't this been explained already...
There is no internet apocalypse on the main big backbones right? its all last mile that is getting congested.. why? because isp are over selling there networks right?
(Please notice my question marks anyone who reads this, I am asking more of a question than I am stating something.. anyways...)
I honestly do believe when you don't deliver to the customer what they want, give mediocre service, ask for more money from the customer, then at that point you have crossed the threshold into greed. (You know that.. kinda reminds me of the fed Government.. except you can't vote with your wallet in that situation, but I digress)
If company A offers 10d/10up and charge 70 dollars a month, but it's fantastic service that never goes down and has the lowest possible latency. Great. .. shit my mind just went blank, not sure where I was going with my example now.. _-_'
I think my point is, that someone else can charge a different price for the same service, but that 'LEVEL' of service may be different etc. The money from that other isp that offers the speeds at a lower cost may not be investing that money back into there infrastructure.. not managing there profits correctly.. and then start over selling there networks..etc.
If there were more competition the consumer would not have to pay for the stupidity of the ISPs...
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 07:08PM:
Re: metered billing means
And let me remind everyone that is was At&ts promise that they would use the tariffs to build FTTP to all homes.
If this current business model is unsustainable, then At&t was also lying to the government.
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baineschile @ 20th May 07:10PM:
Re: metered billing means
Look, on a website thats dedicated to all things braodband,, obviously the arguement will be that "most" people use XX gigs per month.
There are still 13 million households in the US that use dial up. DIAL UP. 56k. I am sure there are a few 28.8's left out there too.
The fact is, everyone on here is reasonably internet saavy, so obviously our use and consumption is higher at this point and time. But the general household, who browses the internet and checks email, doesnt use that many gigs.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 07:10PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by PittsPgh :said by TKJunkMail :said by neowulf :
I also no longer want to pay for banner ads, or any ads for that matter as I would then now be paying for those ads...
Ad Block Plus for Firefox or IE7pro for IE.
Wouldn't matter what you use to block the ads. They still hit your modem.
Actually no they don't. You link to a web page and the ad block software prevents that page from calling all the ads in from different web sites. Ads are almost all served from web sites separate from the web page you are going to. Those ads are never even delivered. The add block software isn't suppressing the display of the ad, it is suppressing the retrieval of the ad completely.
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baineschile @ 20th May 07:12PM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
your point is well taken, but it has one flaw. Yes cable is the main delivery of video these days; but they do own a significant share of the broadband market, which is also their product.
The REAL people who should be fearful are networks and the ad money they get; not the actual TV delivery companies.
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baineschile @ 20th May 07:13PM:
Re: metered billing means
Clearly this is not; its factual based argument that you just happen to disagree with.
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Metatron2008 @ 20th May 07:13PM:
If the current business model is unsustainable...
I said this in another topic, but I want to expand on it here.
We paid tariff fees for years to telcos so they could build a FTTP for all homes.
If this current business model is unsustainable, to the point where major price increases need to happen, then the telcos tariff bills were never possible, and were a fradulent agreement between them and the FCC.
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morbo @ 20th May 07:17PM:
Re: ATT
AT&T and Verizon (telco) pay for the stopthecap propaganda sites directed at cable
cable companies could fund shill organizations dedicated to pointing out how ATT also caps if they wish.
reply
Metatron2008 @ 20th May 07:18PM:
Re: metered billing means
His is the factual argument. I've had to block websites pop ups because some carry trojans. If they were still uploaded you'd get trojans no matter what.
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Zorglub @ 20th May 07:54PM:
Only thing missing is competition
Look at countries where the last mile was unbundled and compare the prices. We will get screwed because we allowed a duopoly to take place. Our choice is to either get screwed by the cableco or by the telco...
For the price of Comcast speedy internet service, I'd get 8/1 internet, video over DSL and VOIP in France. Difference? Unbundling of the last mile at a set price by the regulator. They have good old fashion capitalistic competition and we don't.
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espaeth @ 20th May 08:01PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by Metatron2008 :
The current business model is unsunstainable?
At the current rate of bandwidth consumption compared to the growth of revenue, yes.
said by Metatron2008 :
So we should send them more money huh? The same way we sent telcos tariffs for years so they would build out FTTP, and they did nothing but keep the money?
I didn't say we should "give" them anything, I'm just saying they might need to tweak their pricing to come in line with reality. You might want to fact check a bit; the telecom act of 1996 gave tax cuts (which is not the same as handing over money) to fuel network expansion. The telcos didn't just waste the credits -- they vastly expanded their footprint for DSL by investing in remote terminal DSLAMs to push the service radius further from the COs.
It is, of course, easy to overlook the fact that it wasn't even remotely cost effective to deploy FTTP in the 90's. Passive optical distribution systems (like those used for FiOS) didn't start showing up as actual implementable products until the early to mid 2000's.
said by Metatron2008 :
Who do you work for?
A large healthcare company. We have a network services organization that manages the design, implementation, and operation of network infrastructure built out using carrier MPLS services, private/leased fiber plant for metro DWDM / metro-E, and extensive Internet connectivity for hosting/B2B VPN/employee VPN/Work at Home call center agents/etc all over the US.
reply
patcat88 @ 20th May 08:10PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :said by Anonymous_ :
cable modem Noise Traffic is 5GB to 6GB all ready
The noise traffic is broadcast traffic, and shouldn't be counted against the unicast byte counters per associated MAC on the CMTS. I've had some "drive time" on the Cisco uBR CMTS in the lab, and that traffic is definitely excluded from the reported individual modem/MAC byte totals on that platform.
I'm sure they can be added as "common traffic" to all accounts, the users must pay for the basic traffic usage of any provisioned connection.
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patcat88 @ 20th May 08:12PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by neowulf :
Already use, and there are ads that still get through. But that is besides the point, once you meter something it should be the responsibility of the company that meters to make sure garbage no longer gets through.
TWC wants all the gravy of what metered billing brings, but wants no added responsibility.
Water company isn't responsible for the leaking toilet in your house, why should TWC be responsible for the ads your computer pulls through?
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neowulf @ 20th May 08:42PM:
Re: metered billing means
But would they be responsible if they sent me raw sewage in my drinking water? Sorry but to me that is more comparable.
Once you put a meter on anything it becomes regulated. I can't think of any other service that is metered and isn't regulated. You are going to have local, state and fed governments come in put on all their new fees for each bit you transfer. Once you put a meter on bandwidth it is going to open the floodgate of new fees.
The whole ad thing I originally opened with was more of a joke then serious, but in a funny sort of way you are going to be paying for those ads, even with a ad blocker a few always get through. I guess that is how people who subscribe to cable or satellite tv feel. I wouldn't know since I don't subscribe to any video service.
There are a million things how meter billing on the net will have it's weird questions, like if I am in the middle of a big dl, the ISP has a outage, the file becomes corrupted or the site does not resume the file, will I get credit for the ISP's outage, more then likely the answer is of course not.
So in the end these ISPs want to meter you because they know they will make a killing, as they are already profitable as a all you can eat. But they also don't want the regulators to come in and tell them what they can and can't do. So they want our money, they don't want to provide anything extra for that money, and they don't want the government to come in and regulate what they can and can't do or charge or just about anything, seems fair to me.
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neowulf @ 20th May 08:47PM:
Re: I know everyone is going to scream but
Let all ISPs use the same wires and open the market up to competition, I wonder how far the ones that have a cap and metered usage would do in that competitive market.
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anon @ 20th May 09:03PM:
Re: metered billing means
bit off topic but where is that traffic graph from? program or router? thanks
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digitalfreak @ 20th May 09:12PM:
Re: metered billing means
Photoshop
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major marco @ 20th May 09:51PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :said by JamesPC :
Its not the truth, just a speculation.
The statistical data is on his side that most people use far less than 40GB.
I want to see this wonderful statistical data that evidences your "most people" theory, AND I want it to be from an independent 3rd party not on the NCTA payroll, including, but not limited to TWC, Comcrap or industry suck asses like McSlarrow and/or the slavering sycophant who wrote the above referenced Ars Technica piece.
--
The Toll
Tracking Lord Stanley
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anon @ 20th May 09:56PM:
Usage pricing already sort of exists in the flat price model
Usage based pricing already sort exists within the flat price model. Comcast for example has an economy plan with speeds around 1mbps for a lower price than their standard $45 service. Also, they charge you more for internet if you don't get their cable. There are also higher speed plans offered at higher prices. There would be no real need for them to worry about people consuming more online videos, since the economy plan wouldn't really be fast enough for much intensive streaming video. If a lot of people started dropping their cable tv for some reason, they would have to pay the higher internet bill rate. The content providers would have to come up with some alternate means of obtaining revenues to pay for their programming, but this would be the media networks, not the cable companies. The profit margin Comcast gets from its internet services is actually pretty good. That is probably why they are using fairly high soft caps. They also have invested in some online video.
Time Warner seems to have had difficulty making upgrades to its network over the past several years. This could be preventing them from being able to offer people variety in internet service options. The equivalent would be if a fast food place only offered its customers hamburgers, and no other menu items. AT&T I could see playing the metering game on their non-UVERSE dsl service, but metering UVERSE is not going to encourage adoption. In a Time Warner vs AT&T market, AT&T may get significant market share. I doubt that that in Comcast vs AT&T markets (which is a quite common overlap in places like Chicago, much of Florida, and the San Francisco/San Jose area) would get get much U-VERSE adoption with the rather low caps.
Verizon's behavior is too confusing to even begin to understand. Offloading FIOS areas in Oregon and Washington to Frontier makes no sense.
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beerbum @ 20th May 10:05PM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
said by baineschile :
your point is well taken, but it has one flaw. Yes cable is the main delivery of video these days; but they do own a significant share of the broadband market, which is also their product.
The REAL people who should be fearful are networks and the ad money they get; not the actual TV delivery companies.
well.. 7+ years in the cable industry leads me to believe otherwise..
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NetAdmin @ 20th May 10:06PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by Anonymous_ :
cable modem Noise Traffic is 5GB to 6GB all ready
Not even close to accurate.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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espaeth @ 20th May 10:19PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by major marco :said by espaeth :said by JamesPC :
Its not the truth, just a speculation.
The statistical data is on his side that most people use far less than 40GB.
I want to see this wonderful statistical data that evidences your "most people" theory,
AND I want it to be from an independent 3rd party
not on the NCTA payroll, including, but not limited to TWC, Comcrap or industry suck asses like McSlarrow and/or the slavering sycophant who wrote the above referenced Ars Technica piece.
Start with MINTS, and work your way through the links.
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S_engineer @ 20th May 10:19PM:
Re: metered billing means
Your missing the point. The 60 or 70 or 80 percent of the people that are only utilizing 5 or 10 or even 20 gig per month are more than adequately making up for the 5 % of the people that use into the 100s of gigs. By stating that they don't, they are admitting that they have an oversold inferior network!
With that admission in mind, why is it the responsibility of the consumer to upgrade a network all at once rather than over time like it should have been done in the first place.
--
"When I was in junior high school, the teachers voted me the student most likely to end up in the electric chair."---Sylvestor Stallone
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winsyrstrife @ 20th May 10:22PM:
Re: metered billing means
Looks like DD-WRT's live bandwidth monitoring.
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Mark F @ 20th May 10:23PM:
Re: ATT
Frontier? The company that will try to provide us with high speed internet and TV? I pray everyday about them. And us.
Mark F.
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beerbum @ 20th May 10:26PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
Way off Karl. A 40 Gig cap does not affect ALL households; as most internet users still are way under that threshold.
I like to think of myself as an average user - that is I do not download everything just for the sake of downloading.. from 4/20/09 to 05/20/09 the traffic I received was 31GB and traffic sent is 2.5GB.. so I'm at 33.5GB..
On my other LAN segment, which one "average" user is connected to, received traffic was 19.5GB and traffic sent was 1.1GB..
That brings the total traffic to 54.1GB for two "average" users.. About the only largeness downloaded has been the Windows Seven RC..
It is very easy to exceed the "40GB" that you think is way off..
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Mark F @ 20th May 10:34PM:
Re: metered billing means
More and more people are watching TV shows and movies from TV.com. CBS, AOLin2TV, IMDB, ABC, YouTube, and many are trying to find an economical way to watch such internet content on their TVs.
But, Hulu, for example, doesn't mention caps or per byte billing in their ads. That could stifle internet video. Too bad that AOL's and Hulu's classic TV can't be in cable's On Demand section. Wouldn't that ease the caps problem?
Mark F.
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beerbum @ 20th May 10:36PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by S_engineer :
The more they pay the less they use...then the cablecos would reclaim some of that precious bandwidth they're supposedly losing.
Speaking of bandwidth.. won't the cablecos have mad bandwidth freed up this coming June 12 when all video broadcast/transmissions are supposed to switch to all data?
I'm sure they'll then start to drop their analog simulcast, slowly moving all subscribers needing a cable box to get all channels..
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 10:38PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by winsyrstrife :
Looks like DD-WRT's live bandwidth monitoring.
Yes. That is exactly what it is. It is running on a Linksys router.
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TKJunkMail @ 20th May 10:39PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by beerbum :said by S_engineer :
The more they pay the less they use...then the cablecos would reclaim some of that precious bandwidth they're supposedly losing.
Speaking of bandwidth.. won't the cablecos have mad bandwidth freed up this coming June 12 when all video broadcast/transmissions are supposed to switch to all data?
I'm sure they'll then start to drop their analog simulcast, slowly moving all subscribers needing a cable box to get all channels..
They can't drop their analog simulcast on basic channels for a couple years by FCC mandate.
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espaeth @ 20th May 10:39PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by S_engineer :
By stating that they don't, they are admitting that they have an oversold inferior network!
That's one way to phrase it -- the other way is to say the oversubscription ratio is starting to change a bit faster than what they can budget for expansion. Network growth is planned every year for every major ISP out there -- the problem is when demand exceeds planned growth based on budget.
said by S_engineer :
With that admission in mind, why is it the responsibility of the consumer to upgrade a network all at once rather than over time like it should have been done in the first place.
You have to remember in the cable world DOCSIS systems started out with 2,000+ cable modems attached per downstream channel when they were being deployed at the start of the decade. Now it's typical to see 250 modems or less on a downstream channel, and 125 or less per upstream channel.
Same deal with expansion for DSL. The Remote Terminal DSLAM that feeds my house was installed in 2005 with a couple T1s feeding it to provide my ILEC the ability to sell 1.5mps DSL service. Just a few weeks back they started dropping in a brand new fiber distribution system that will serve as a potential platform for FTTP deployments in the future, but for now they've been able to expand capacity to the RT so they can offer 10mbps DSL in the meantime.
Upgrades are constant, and are done as part of planned tech refresh cycles under the annual budget. The problem is rapid expansion is more expensive than waiting for technology to mature and the price of equipment to come down. If people are going to drive traffic that forces broadband providers to get the newest equipment at top dollar prices, that money has to come from somewhere.
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beerbum @ 20th May 10:50PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by TKJunkMail :said by beerbum :said by S_engineer :
The more they pay the less they use...then the cablecos would reclaim some of that precious bandwidth they're supposedly losing.
Speaking of bandwidth.. won't the cablecos have mad bandwidth freed up this coming June 12 when all video broadcast/transmissions are supposed to switch to all data?
I'm sure they'll then start to drop their analog simulcast, slowly moving all subscribers needing a cable box to get all channels..
They can't drop their analog simulcast on basic channels for a couple years by FCC mandate.
yes this is true.. however Comcast has a basic package and what they call expanded basic, or enhanced, or standard depending on what your region calls it - it is made up of those channels above the 20 or so channel basic plan that a DCT is not needed - those they can and have already start moving them to digital only to free up that 8MHz the analog channel was using..
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baineschile @ 20th May 11:17PM:
Re: metered billing means
The june 12th switch has nothing to do with cable bandwidth. That is OTA switching to a digital signal.
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baineschile @ 20th May 11:27PM:
Re: metered billing means
No, I am completely for higher speeds and competition. But, at the day and age, i think the caps imposed are semi-reasonable. I do think though, that any ISp has the right to manage their network however they see fit; and if .1% of their customers eat 25% of the bandwidth, and caps is a way to kick them off, then so be it; or pay for commercial rates.
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tubbynet @ 20th May 11:33PM:
Re: metered billing means
since you have dug through the links (and i'm really not feeling up to it after today), you have mentioned this
said by espaeth :
they are still only looking at about 20GB/mo per capita for Internet usage
per capita (to me atleast) could be construed as misleading. are we looking at total bandwidth consumption against *total* population or are we looking at total bandwidth consumption against *connected* population?
q.
--
"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..."
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bp1068 @ 21st May 01:58AM:
A question or two...
If your ISP provides you with 6mbit/3mbit connection, does this give you the right to move a steady 6mbit/3mbit stream 24/7/365?
If you answered yes to the question above you are clinically insane*
if you answered no to the question above then you just admitted that your common sense tells you that your "unlimited" broadband IS limited and rightfully so.
Who owns "the internet"?
Who has "the rights" to use it?
How many kbits was the average web page 6 years ago?
How many mbits is the average web page today?
* - I'm not really qualified to make that diagnosis but you should get your head examined or have a close friend slap you really hard!
EDIT: hmmm... this was supposed to be a reply to the 'metered billing' post, don't know how it ended up being a different thread.
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dfxmatt @ 21st May 02:26AM:
Re: metered billing means
every time you lower caps, you have a new group that hits that upper cap.
So if your cap was 100GB, suddenly people in the 80GB are abusing the cap.
If your cap is 40GB, suddenly people in the 30GB are abusing the cap.
Most internet users are not by any circumstance under 40Gig; companies are deliberately avoiding the reality of their bandwidth capability. Once we do IPTV, what do you suppose happens to the excess of bandwidth for HDTV? Why should we pay extra for that? Oh right, added value isn' tit?
Their goal isn't to deter competition as there is none. their goal is to degrade service to up profit margins.
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dfxmatt @ 21st May 02:28AM:
Re: "Bandwidth Apocalypse"? Please...
citation please of your magic ad revenue falling somehow due to broadband?
the reality is the ads are crap, people aren't watching tv. I wouldn't equate to broadband what is the fault of a pitiful dying industry (another one, hopefully)
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Pizz @ 21st May 02:36AM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :said by BF69 :
And of course it will stay 5 GB forever. Um have you noticed the ads for Hulu on TV a lot? What happens as more and more peole start using that.
You start having a lot more indicators popping up about how the current model isn't sustainable.
Insurance rates are based on statistical evaluation of past events. What do you suppose the impact would be to home owners insurance rates if instead of a major hurricane every few years to having, say, 2 major high-claim hurricanes a season? Pricing will need to adjust to new reality of the situation.
The argument made here is that your usage should be able to dramatically increase, but your monthly bill should stay the same or be lower. That position has obvious inconsistencies with reality.
said by BF69 :
I have a subscription to MLB.tv where I can watch live games on the internet. They even have them in HD at 3 Mbps stream. Watching my favorite team play their 26 games a month will use 100 GB. I wouldn't consider watching 1 baseball game a day excessive.
Sure, but
MLB.tv had around 500,000 subscribers last year, out of 200-some million broadband subscribers in the US. That's practically a rounding error in the grand scheme of Internet statistics.
said by BF69 :
You link also eldues to a 50% yearly increase. Within 5 years that's 38 GB per month average. Within 8 years it's 128 GB average. Within 12 years it's 649 GB average.
5 years is a long way away. 5 years ago we were just being introduced to the first DOCSIS 2.0 hardware that was capable of turning the 9mbps shared upstream into 27mbps shared upstream on cable plants. Keep in mind that is
average growth; the demand of some folks is
significantly greater than that year-to-year.
said by BF69 :
By the way how come no cap on TV watching? How much bandwidth am I using when I'm watching that average 151 hours of TV per month?
Because broadcast TV is infinitely more efficient. There are a vast array of one-way delivery technologies (OTA ATSC, QAM, 8PSK/QPSK, etc) that are able to push massive amounts of content to your house economically. 2-way systems are more expensive, and have the detractor of having to manage separate flows per viewer.
Broadcast TV is easy to plan for, the downstream bitrate is constant no matter how many viewers there are, and efficiently only goes up when more people are watching the same thing at the same time.
If my cable was still the same 10 years ago, and i didnt get a nice increase every year, then yes I would understand your point. They make money, it's been show time and time again that MSOs/Cable CO's hate to spend capital. Because they'd rather make their sheets look good.
The only MSO is Cablevision, who actually spends capital on such investments.
--
The more you talk, the less you listen.
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fireflier @ 21st May 07:06AM:
Re: metered billing means
While I realize that members of this site tend to be more advanced than the "typical" user out there, being a member of this site doesn't automatically discount that person's statistics from being representative of a significant portion of the population--if not currently, then certainly down the road. Secondly, that number is per capita and does not represent a statistical model of the population. Rather, it represents a simple division of the total traffic in the country by the number of users in that country. In the same manner that per-capita is used to represent per-capita income. It doesn't mean everyone on average makes the per capita amount. A per-capita breakdown unfortunately provides no useful information on the average, mean, standard deviation, or outlier data in a set. It also provides no insight into the distribution of that data (users), i.e. normal, binary, chi squared, lognormal, inverse gaussian, etc.
"In spite of the widespread claims of continuing and even accelerating growth rates, Internet traffic growth appears to be decelerating. In the United States, there was a brief period of "Internet traffic doubling every 100 days" back in 1995-96, but already by 1997 growth subsided towards an approximate doubling every year CO1998, and more recently even that growth rate has declined towards 50-60% per year. "
"The press is full of alarms about "exafloods" of traffic, primarily video, that might overwhelm the Internet. This is motivating calls for new business models, with many implications for issues such as "net neutrality" (see MW2007, And2007, MI2007, and McC2006). But there is very little solid data about what is happening on the network, and many conflicting estimates. As one striking example, at the end of 2005, John Chambers, the CEO of Cisco, claimed that Internet traffic was growing at about 100% per year Boslet2005, and similar claims are common (e.g., Roberts2006). Chambers also predicted both in 2005 and in a keynote at the NXTcomm conference in June 2007 Chambers2007, Duffy2007 that growth might accelerate towards 300 to 500% per year, and that the internal Cisco corporate network traffic load is currently growing at such rates"
ISPs bemoan the coming bandwidth crunch using one source, and use other sources to validate their claims of what is statistically normal while simultaneously ignoring contradicting facts from those sources that are inconvenient when applied against their proposed business models?
The MINTS project data indicates that data is "Year-end 2008 estimates for monthly Internet traffic (GB per capita)" and clarifies that is extrapolated data. Based on that number, and assuming it is accurate per capita it would still put most users over 5GB and render RR's proposed lowest tier obsolete right out of the gate.
If ISP execs are using data like that provided from MINTS and making the typical arguments using that data that their business model needs to change, then they're morons. They should at least hire a mathematician qualified in statistics and probability to interpret the data for them so they can make informed decisions.
MINTS also claims that their numbers are not entirely reliable because ISPs typically do not share detailed information that could be used to obtain reliable statistics.
The repetition of ISPs claiming that the "typical" user requires x GB and that traffic on the internet will increase to y EB does nothing to support their position for those who understand what data is relevant when the ISPs won't provide raw numbers to prove it.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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fireflier @ 21st May 08:28AM:
Re: metered billing means
See my other post. Per Capita is NOT a useful statistical parameter without additional information. It is a simple division of one total quantity (total bandwidth) by a population (users). Thus, it is merely the mean of some population distribution on an assumed curve. We don't know what the median is, nor do we know the spread, variance, standard deviation or what are considered outliers. One useful way of representing this if the ISPs want to prove their point would be to provide the "Five-Number Summary" Minimum, Quartile 1, Median, Quartile 3, and Maximum. Mean by itself is pretty useless in this context.
It does not in any way accurately or completely represent the distribution of people who use the bandwidth, nor does it represent what the outliers are on that data.
One COULD assume a few use a great deal of bandwidth and to make per capita numbers on a standard normal curve, many would use very little.
The reality without seeing the distribution is that a significant proportion could be using a moderate amount with very few using a great deal and a few using a small amount. That also most likely assumes a standard normal distribution which has also not been confirmed. The distribution of bandwidth users may follow a different curve.
Distribution of the data is what's important here, not per capita. Per capita is a summary used to represent quantities whose deeper analysis is irrelevant. That is not the case with bandwidth use.
The fact that companies like TWC aren't using (are they even calculating?) Q3 as a potential cap point (They're using something closer to Q1) either indicates they have no freaking clue about statistical application to system design or they understand it and are ignoring it because to do so guarantees higher income.
Now can we please dispense with the per capita numbers. They may appear favorable for ISPs trying to bolster their position but they are not accurately indicative of bandwidth use as it applies to engineering design for their networks.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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fireflier @ 21st May 08:30AM:
Re: metered billing means
Been through MINTS. It's Per Capita numbers and they themselves claim that internet growth is not increasing at 100% or exponentially, it's (as of extrapolated year-end 2008) 50%-60%. Their only support for Exaflood is there's a lot of data out there that COULD hit the internet but a meltdown is dependent upon when it hits, how much hits, how fast, and what companies do in the mean time to their network in terms of upgrades.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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fireflier @ 21st May 08:34AM:
Re: metered billing means
said by tubbynet :since you have dug through the links (and i'm really not feeling up to it after today), you have mentioned this
said by espaeth :
they are still only looking at about 20GB/mo per capita for Internet usage
per capita (to me atleast) could be construed as misleading. are we looking at total bandwidth consumption against *total* population or are we looking at total bandwidth consumption against *connected* population?
q.
Yes, they are, and it's an invalid quantity to use for this purpose. You are correct. It is misleading.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com
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Karl Bode @ 21st May 09:21AM:
Re: Why do they have to experiment?
That's exactly right. They have the data right in front of them. The reason they won't share it with anyone, or release raw data of any kind, should tell a smart consumer volumes.
As for the TWC trials, the "experiment" was about framing public relations and marketing to make the change seem necessary...they'd already perfected the back office structure in Beaumont months earlier.
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anon @ 21st May 09:29AM:
Re: metered billing means
Just scrolling and trying to see what others have to say on this. :)
I agree with fireflier that the 5 GB per capita would be grossly inaccurate to represent usage of typical usage for an average household/user. If you take that "monthly Internet traffic estimate" for the US and divide it by the entire US population then you get roughly 5 GB per capita figure...
Of course, not everyone in the US even have a computer let alone internet access... A quick Google search suggests that to be as high as 30% (2005 figures) so you are lowering the average of people that actually uses the internet... 5 GB/.7 = 7 GB would be slightly better figure. I would argue that is still too low for board band users as 5 GB should be pretty hard to hit on 56k dial up (assuming 8hrs per day; still takes over a week 24/7 to hit 5 GB). My guess is board band is more like 10 to 12 GB and dial up is 1 to 3 GB per month. And Yeah there are still people in the US that uses dial up... Just my guess tho...
Still as pointed out, you need to know the standard deviation to use the normal/bell curve to figure out where say ~68% to ~95% of the population lies. It would seem fair to me if they had a reasonable/cheap plan to cover ~68% of users, and a more expensive plan to cover ~95%, and then very expensive plans... If it really is all about consumers as they claim...
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Anonymous_ @ 21st May 11:11AM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
who browses the internet and checks email, doesnt use that many gigs.
what is the point in getting a 15/2 for that?
that is like getting a super fast car and driveing it at 25mph
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anon @ 21st May 12:08PM:
Are you kidding?
Trust us...we're your friendly cable company. If Cablevision in the tri-state area is any clue, cable companies will stop at nothing to gouge the customer. Now we're going to let them control our access to the Internet? This is a bad idea in so many ways.
After I give Cablevision control over my Internet, I will walk over to the Dolan family mansion and ask them if they'd like to have my first born...maybe they'd renew my HBO service in return.
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wentlanc @ 21st May 02:49PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by espaeth :
The median traffic usage level for most ISPs in the US and Europe is somewhere in the 2-5GB/mo range. That means that at least 50% of the subscriber base is using 2-5GB/mo or less.
So that leaves some fraction up to 50% of broadband users that would be affected by this approach, instead of the industry claims that the shift to metered billing would only impact 1% of their customers. It's very interesting that they chose to use the median, and not the mean. I wonder how much worse that number looked... Can we exclude Europe to get a real number that is useful here?
cw
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wentlanc @ 21st May 02:59PM:
Re: metered billing means
said by baineschile :
No, I am completely for higher speeds and competition. But, at the day and age, i think the caps imposed are semi-reasonable. I do think though, that any ISp has the right to manage their network however they see fit; and if .1% of their customers eat 25% of the bandwidth, and caps is a way to kick them off, then so be it; or pay for commercial rates.
If they are willing to sell it, then they do have the capacity. They are the ones that chose the billing model, not us. You either bill flat rate, and deal with the spectrum of usage habits, or bill by the byte. If you bill by the byte, I for one expect it to be similar to electricity. There is a connection fee, and usage per byte. The problem is that they want it both ways. They don't want to lose the $$ from people who barely use their connections, but still want to gouge the people who do. People who use 2 - 5 gigs per month should be paying $15 a month, not $50. But the greedy pigs want more....
It's liks saying that you are an hourly employee until you hit 40 hours. Then you switch to Salary. You can't have your cake and eat it too!!!
cw
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wentlanc @ 21st May 03:27PM:
Re: A question or two...
Hmm... when they are advertising up to 3 times the speed of most standard DSL packages and up to 100x faster than dial-up, so families can spend their time on the computer learning, experiencing, and playing - instead of waiting AND always on availability..... what are you drawn to conclude?
All of these companies are purposely trying to mislead people into making an impulse decision based on the bold print, and then saying "Well what we meant by that was.....".
What exactly was your point with your very leading questions aside from attempting to make yourself feel better about your opinion?
cw
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bp1068 @ 21st May 09:01PM:
Re: A question or two...
"... your very leading questions ..."
Leading? I suppose so, answer those questions and they help lead you to informed opinions instead of the "my isp said the connection was unlimited and I didn't read the fine print" opinion I see all over every forum talking about the issue.
You don't think the exponential growth in the average size of a web page is a legitimate piece of information in the argument?
I believe my original questions are very legitimate questions in the "unlimited internet" debate, would you please take each question and explain how it has no place in the debate?
Who knows, maybe you will change my mind and I will grab my torch and pitchfork and join the crowd.
If the argument is solely based on what the ISP's advertise, then let it be about that, but at least be honest and admit that you KNOW your "unlimited" connection is NOT, and shouldn't be for the price you pay.
I am not in agreement with the advertising strategies of the major ISP's, I believe they brought this mess on themselves.
Before broadband we had dial-up, how did you pay for dial-up?
You paid for time, not speed, and not by the amount of data you moved, your connection was "limited" by time, you bough 10 hours, or 50 hours, etc.
When ISP's started providing broadband they advertised this service as "unlimited" as it pertained to time, you no longer were paying for time slots, you were always connected and could use the service 24/7/365, hence it was "unlimited".
The ISP's did not have the foresight to see how this would cause problems in the future.
We have infrastructure to deliver video, telephone, and radio, but consumers have to pay for the delivery of that content, now people want to use their $50/month internet connection to access all of this content/services thinking the delivery should now be free because after all your ISP said your service was "unlimited".
I think it is wrong for the big ISP's to continue to mislead consumers, they need to educate the consumers and quit treating them like idiots.
On the other hand, consumers need to quit acting like idiots by insisting that they have a god given right to use the internet, and by believing that an advertised 6mbit connection is a dedicated 6mbit connection for them, and them alone.
When I read somebody post that they think it's time for the feds to 'take over the internet', I go flippin' crazy at such a stupid talk, and entitlement mentality in general, nobody is entitled to use the internet.
If I pay a few thousand dollars a month for a DS3 connection to Sprint, and from there I distribute a network and sell service to end users, I OWN the network between Sprint and the end user and can DICTATE who gets to use it, and HOW they get to use it, if I don't want P2P on my network no law enforcement agency is going to force me to let you run your P2P apps.
I am probably wasting my time writing any of this and those greedy corps are probably getting what they deserve, I would just hate to see more govt. control over things they have no real right to control.
ISP's are fighting for business and yet they still treat their customers like scum, imagine what your internet would be like if the feds stole it from private corporations and ran the thing and gave free* internet to everyone?
*nothing is free when the govt. is concerned, you will pay one way or another.
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MemphisPCGuy @ 24th May 05:03PM:
Why have allow overages at all?
If 40Gb is the "average" on their network, why allow overages at all. If it were in the "best interest of the consumer" they would set a limit, charge for that limit and cut it off at that limit. Anything else is a money grab.
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