DSL Vs. Carrier Pigeon - South African monopoly versus IP over avian transport?
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DSL Vs. Carrier Pigeon
South African monopoly versus IP over avian transport?
03:35PM Tuesday Sep 08 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: competition · business · alternatives · bandwidth · telco · world · networking · Oddities · consumers
Slashdot directs our attention to some small business customers of a South African ISP Telkom (aka "Hellcom"), who were so annoyed by the sluggish DSL service of the carrier while transferring 100MB files that they decided to see if carrier pigeon would be any faster. Judging from these two blog posts, early trials do suggest that carrier pigeon is faster than a lumbering DSL monopoly, but the official race occurs tomorrow. From a letter circulating by the race coordinators:
Basically we will be flying a pigeon with a 4GB micro SD card from Howick to our central site in Hillcrest. We did a dry run yesterday. Here is the stats: Pigeon took 48 minutes to deliver the data. ADSL is still downloading...We spend +/- R 45000 a month just on rental for these lines. If we moved to the Avian Carrier Network we will be saving a whopping R 35 000 a month.
IP Over Avian Carriers (RFC2549) has been a network nerd joke for many years, so it's nice to see someone put the theory into real world application. While most cable and DSL carriers here in the States should be able to beat their avian counterparts, we're home to a few satellite broadband operators our uncapped, un-"fapped" or otherwise unhindered feathered friends might give a run for their money.

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page: 1 · 2
ptrowski @ 8th Sep 03:44PM:
Brilliant!

That article made my day.
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KrK @ 8th Sep 03:46PM:
But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

Hmmm....

OMG This Lag is terrible! :D
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Brazbit @ 8th Sep 03:50PM:
Re: But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

Click, Wait, Woosh - Not just for satellite ISPs anymore.
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Al3sinth @ 8th Sep 04:04PM:
Try Games :P

Man... Imagine playing some FPS using this.
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R0CKY @ 8th Sep 04:05PM:
LMAO!!

This is too funny! Specially enjoyed the RFC reference!
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Lazlow @ 8th Sep 04:15PM:
What about high density cards?

With 8,16,32GB cards getting well into the affordable range(8GB cards starting below $13) you could run a similiar test with DSL on a 4GB ISO here in the US and the pigeon would at the very least be competitive.
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mod_wastrel @ 8th Sep 04:15PM:
"Channel-bonding"?

Do they offer carrier-bonding? 10 birds per trip - 10x speed? (Just keep them away from the statues.)
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neufuse @ 8th Sep 04:23PM:
turn based

could play turn based games like civilization and chess this way hehe sent "packets" of data back and forth showing the moves
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iansltx @ 8th Sep 04:23PM:
Sneakernet strikes back

Seriously, there are some instances in which the US postal system is both faster and cheaper than delivering data over wireless (or even wires). Which is patently ridiculous.

As the poster above said, 32GB MicroSDXC cards could mean that IP over Avian Carrier could be significantly higher-throughput than the other options, though latency is a killer.
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ctceo @ 8th Sep 04:28PM:
Cost?

Now I just need to find a carrier pigeon service in my neighborhood. See if there's any money to be had.
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jmn1207 @ 8th Sep 04:28PM:
Windows Crashes Network Traffic

We tried this in a clean Windows environment and experienced numerous, fatal crashes. :D
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bn1221 @ 8th Sep 04:34PM:
Re: Sneakernet strikes back

I can move 250GB compressed data tape (400GB actual) across the cost in 3 days with Fedex. I'd need a very fat pipe to compete with that....
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AstroBoy @ 8th Sep 04:34PM:
collisions!

I heard of packet collisions, but watch out for those plains!
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AstroBoy @ 8th Sep 04:39PM:
Re: "Channel-bonding"?

said by mod_wastrel :

Do they offer carrier-bonding? 10 birds per trip - 10x speed? (Just keep them away from the statues.)
Use something like RAID5. 9 birds with data, 1 bird with parity. Can loose 1 bird without data loss. :)
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iansltx @ 8th Sep 04:42PM:
Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Meh, you can pretty easily do that with a 10 Mbps upload conection.

Problem is, that's one expensive onnection in most places.
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decx @ 8th Sep 04:46PM:
Re: LMAO!!

Does that mean Teksavvy would implement an IPoAC based solution if Bell does implement UBB billing? :D
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bn1221 @ 8th Sep 04:46PM:
Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Yes, you can, in theory. But you need 10Mbit at each end. Cable and DSL isn't up to snuff, and while FiOS would be up to it a 250GB tarball transferring flawlessly is asking a lot for reality :)

I have 2 T1s to each site. Add in normal traffic and VPN overhead and I think you can see my point :)

I laugh when people try to back up 1TB NAS boxes to Mozy on there 768Kb home DSL lines :)
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travelguy @ 8th Sep 04:47PM:
9 Track

Way back in my datacenter operator days, we used to have a say "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a box of tapes in the back of a station wagon."

Still applies today...
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R0CKY @ 8th Sep 04:49PM:
Re: LMAO!!

LOL
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milnoc @ 8th Sep 04:51PM:
Re: But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

It's not as bad as you think. A single packet can be 4 GB in size according to the proposed model. So you only need to send a single packet (pigeon) to your destination.

Of course, there's no guarantee the packet won't become someone's lunch. :)
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milnoc @ 8th Sep 04:52PM:
Re: LMAO!!

Who's going to clean up all the packet "droppings?" :)
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milnoc @ 8th Sep 04:53PM:
Re: Windows Crashes Network Traffic

LOL! (and yuck!) :)
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sivran @ 8th Sep 04:55PM:
Re: 9 Track

Even moreso, now that we've updated "tapes" to "hard drives" and "station wagon" to "SUV." :D

Latency is pretty killer though. Ain't gonna play no deathmatches on IP-over-roadway, no sir.
--
In dadkins' memory, Think outside the Fox...
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joker5656 @ 8th Sep 04:55PM:
Re: "Channel-bonding"?

Was thinking the same thing
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axiomatic @ 8th Sep 05:02PM:
Someone test AT&T.

Someone go test this with AT&T, the iphone and a carrier pidgin.

I have a feeling it's going to be a close race.
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thender @ 8th Sep 05:07PM:
Re: What about high density cards?

Cable, while lacking the long term potential of fiber, at the very least can compete for the time being.

Resdiential ADSL typically goes up to 88 KBps upstream then stops.. That's if you're even getting that much. That's over an hour for a 350 MB file.

As time goes on and we expect to do more serious things with the internet, 88 KBps is a joke.
--
Macbook repair in NYC
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JohnQPublic @ 8th Sep 05:08PM:
Tasty packets

Not only will you save a bundle switching from DSL, but you can use the packets to make a casserole in red wine sauce.
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DarkLogix @ 8th Sep 05:23PM:
Re: "Channel-bonding"?

you might want raid 6 on that setup or even raid 50
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DarkLogix @ 8th Sep 05:26PM:
Re: Tasty packets

but TCP/IP needs return packets
although not as much data needs to be sent for the data request

and are the arp and syn packets color coded?

how about an IPoAC DDOS lol
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mod_wastrel @ 8th Sep 05:29PM:
Re: "Channel-bonding"?

I suddenly have an image of that CG movie Valiant in my head. :)
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iansltx @ 8th Sep 05:32PM:
Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Heh, I upgraded my 'net connection to 50/10 and pushed 200+ GB to the cloud in four or five days, not working overnight.

Though DOCSIS 1.1 and anything but super-low-distance VDSL2 ain't gonna give you those speeds.

I like my 5 Mbps up connection, though I'd much rather have 10 Mbps symmetric than 22/5.
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bbeesley @ 8th Sep 05:33PM:
RFC1149

IP over avian carriers is actually RFC1149....RFC2549 is adds class of service but then that distinction is one that only a true geek would point out

<grin>

These are but one of many April Fools day RFCs that have been published over the years

my personal favorite is the Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol
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DarkLogix @ 8th Sep 05:34PM:
Re: Someone test AT&T.

I think the pidgin would beat AT&T
just put a 64GB flash drive on it and send it

then just try to download 64GB on the iPhone (yes I know the iPhone is only up to 32GB thus the win to the pidgin)
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DarkLogix @ 8th Sep 05:40PM:
Re: RFC1149

This memo amends RFC 1149, "A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers", with Quality of Service information.

thus 2549 supersedes 1149
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misiek @ 8th Sep 06:08PM:
Snails are faster than ADSL.

»www.notes.co.il/benbasat/10991.asp

Enjoy :D :D :D
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KrK @ 8th Sep 06:26PM:
Re: But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

Yeah, so you could play Chess (1 move at a time) via Avian Carrier Protocol but I wouldn't want to try to play FPS with it :D

However it would be a valid way to Download DVD's and MP3's without the RIAA packet snooping :D :D
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j_on_fire @ 8th Sep 06:29PM:
Re: Windows Crashes Network Traffic

Haha now that was awesome!
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KrK @ 8th Sep 06:31PM:
Re: Snails are faster than ADSL.

ROFL

"Yet the Wi-Fly TCP (Transmission by Pigeons) protocol of wireless internet has had its limitations. First, pigeons cannot fly through Windows. Second, since they don't fly in darkness either, this method's bandwidth drops to zero 50% of the time. Finally, there's the problem of droppings"
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

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MaynardKrebs @ 8th Sep 06:44PM:
Re: Tasty packets

said by DarkLogix :

how about an IPoAC DDOS lol

It's called a 'cat'.
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cpsycho @ 8th Sep 06:45PM:
Re: Tasty packets

IPoAC DDOS = FWSA hacks (farmers with shotguns attacks)
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MaynardKrebs @ 8th Sep 06:46PM:
Re: Snails are faster than ADSL.

said by KrK :

...... this method's bandwidth drops to zero 50% of the time. Finally, there's the problem of droppings"

Not much different than a xDSL or cable operator injecting reset packets or throttling 10 hours per day....like some do/did.
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R0CKY @ 8th Sep 07:07PM:
Re: LMAO!!

Hopefully the network isn't daisy chained like the old coax stuff cuz, if so, someone's going to get crapped on for sure!
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SYNACK @ 8th Sep 07:14PM:
First implemetation in Norway in 2001

A group in Norway has implemented and tested RFC 1149 back in 2001. :)


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DataDoc @ 8th Sep 07:47PM:
Re: Try Games :P

said by Al3sinth :

Man... Imagine playing some FPS using this.
Back in the day, I used to play boardgames (Stalingrad, Afrika Korps, etc.) by mail. Took way less time than actually fighting the battles.
--
Don't bite me, Bro!
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RARPSL @ 8th Sep 09:56PM:
Re: LMAO!!

said by R0CKY :

This is too funny! Specially enjoyed the RFC reference!
Of course the referenced RFC was an enhancement added QoS considerations to the original RFC1149. Check out that original RFC. Also, there was an actual implementation of the RFC done in 2001 (see »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFC_1149#R···entation) to get some speed metrics.
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R0CKY @ 8th Sep 10:42PM:
Re: LMAO!!

Hehe....
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Richard B @ 8th Sep 11:33PM:
Thats Not a Monopoly but a National Broadband Plan.

Excuse me, but is this what you all at Broadband Reports have been yammering for for years: A National Broadband plan. Drive out the greedy telecoms free broadband NOW!

Of course, you all are hoping for a free 100Mb connection, but that not how government entitlements work.
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whizkid3 @ 8th Sep 11:45PM:
ZAR

Not sure if they are spending 45k ZAR per month or 450 ZAR per month. (7.5 ZAR = 1 USD, but with purchasing power what it is in ZA, 1 ZAR can buy locally what 1 USD can buy in the USA. So, in terms of broadband purchase 1 ZAR is about 1 USD.)

Why anyone would spend 45k ZAR, or even 450 ZAR, per month for a DSL connection is beyond me. Frame relay, X.25, and quite a few other broadband services are available in this highly developed country, and likely a for a lot less money (than 45k ZAR).

There are definitely other alternatives then Telkom DSL.
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bbeesley @ 8th Sep 11:50PM:
Re: RFC1149

didn't realize amend equaled supersedes ;-)
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anon @ 9th Sep 03:10AM:
South African Telecoms

To ZAR

I am from south africa and i can tell you that we have the most expensive internet in the world also the worst service from out Monopoly telecoms provider Telkom.

We have many ISP's but they are all at the mercy of Telkom, Even though their monopoly has officialy ended, the "second national operator" Neotel is still digging holes all over the country, so for now all we can do is wait and get this S**ty service. BTW one loaf of bread is about 8 ZAR.

That line they are using is what you guys know as a SDSL and its a 1mb line (total crap but the best they gonna get for that 45k)
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winsyrstrife @ 9th Sep 09:07AM:
Nothing like massive public humiliation

to get a company motivated. I'm all for it here in the states, although some companies might try to sue for defamation of character. I'm more inclined to think the pigeon would be insulted... :)
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DarkLogix @ 9th Sep 09:47AM:
Re: Tasty packets

how about a syn flood?
Broadcast domains?
near end cross talk
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eugenegill @ 9th Sep 10:03AM:
Latest: Pigeon Wins!

Telkom ADSL speed beaten by pigeon
Business Day Online
Published: 2009/09/09 11:53:40 AM

Homing pigeon Winston has made history by beating a Telkom ADSL line in delivering 4GB of data from Howick to Hillcrest, outside Durban in far less time than it takes to download the data using the state-run Telkom’s data network.

It took Winston 2 hours 6 minutes and 57 seconds, whereas the ADSL download was still under 5 % downloaded by the time the bird landed.

Winston took off from Howick after 10:00 this morning and travelled 80 kilometers, or 70 as the bird flies, to ensure the data arrived at it’s destination quickly.

Financial services company The Unlimited decided to test Telkom’s ADSL speed against World War I technology - the ancient technology won.

While the ADSL line was actually given a head start of almost half an hour, Winston still beat the service by 95%.

There has been no comment by Telkom.
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Necronomikro @ 9th Sep 02:18PM:
Re: 9 Track

said by sivran :

Even moreso, now that we've updated "tapes" to "hard drives" and "station wagon" to "SUV." :D

Latency is pretty killer though. Ain't gonna play no deathmatches on IP-over-roadway, no sir.
Let's see... 1TB HDD's... say, about, 50 of 'em. Say, about a 5 hour trip... 2,777,777.7~ KB/s or 2.7GB/s

Even just 1 over a 20 hour trip is respectable... 13888.8~ KB/s or ~ 14MB/s.
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xyar @ 9th Sep 04:09PM:
Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Shouldn't be expensive. Our 10 mbps up/down Internet connection (over an OC12 SONET ring) is quite reasonable. We also have a 100 mbit WAN and two T1s going over that fiber (T1s for the phone system).

Guess it just depends on where you are.
--
One geek to rule them all!
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xyar @ 9th Sep 04:11PM:
Re: Windows Crashes Network Traffic

That's the funnies thing I've read all week!
--
One geek to rule them all!
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Evil_Icon @ 9th Sep 07:34PM:
lol

hilarious
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anon @ 10th Sep 12:42PM:
Re: Tasty packets

said by DarkLogix :

how about a syn flood?

syn flood?

Ever see Hitchcock's "The Birds" :D
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InvalidError @ 10th Sep 02:56PM:
Re: "Channel-bonding"?

said by AstroBoy :

Use something like RAID5. 9 birds with data, 1 bird with parity. Can loose 1 bird without data loss. :)
Actually, the best implementation (if you are not too concerned about incuring maybe 20 minutes extra latency) would be to use FEC so you could send a stream of pigeon and still be able to reconstruct the stream as long as at least four out of any five consecutive pigeons (4:5 coding) make it through. Once your avian pipeline is full, you can have more steady throughput with fewer pigeons. If you launch one pigeon every 5 minutes, your latency is increased by 20 minutes compared to sending all your RAID5-coded pigeons out at the same time.

For better reliability, you can use 4:7 coding at the cost of 10 more minutes in latency (30m total) so you can now afford to lose almost half (3 out of every 7) of your pigeons.
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David @ 10th Sep 03:06PM:
bets on!

I got $50 on the pigeon if it's not too late!

Now that I think of it a bit more.. Captain copyright would have to cap the pigeons to keep file trading at bay!
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cmoullas @ 10th Sep 03:49PM:
Any Word on Larger MTUs?

While I realize that a 4GB MTU is pretty big, the data rate could be substantially improved with a larger MTU - say 64GB.

That would actually mean an average data rate of 64GB / 48m = 182 Mb/s.

That's pretty damn good. In fact it even beats fiber!
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morisato @ 11th Sep 01:13AM:
Re: Any Word on Larger MTUs?

then if u consider if the distance was merely 3 hours as the bird flys You just need 180 Birds and You would be able to get quite The packet stream going! I mean using the 4 gb stick as an example you;d be transferring 240gb/ an hour! Though i suppose you would need some birds for the return flight and some rest time to keep network quality and dropped packets down p:) so maybe 240 birds. and if we need to throttle aka a bell move we can just Get out a pellet gun and Shoot 1 in 10 packets or so for fun P:)
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

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anon @ 11th Sep 08:03AM:
Hilsrious

This story is the Internet in a nutshell. Can't wait to hear the ISP's response!
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linicx @ 13th Sep 07:27AM:
Hysterically funny

Now how do you train your pigeon to fly 3000 miles from L3 in NYC to L3 in LA?

Why do I think it is not nearly as easy as it sounds on paper?
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside
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