ISPs Shouldn't Pretend To Be Content Companies - Should also embrace the wholesale FTTH model, says analyst...
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ISPs Shouldn't Pretend To Be Content Companies Should also embrace the wholesale FTTH model, says analyst... (old news - 12:22PM Tuesday Jan 13 2009) tags: dsl · Fiber · competition · business · alternatives · telco · world · content · Verizon · Qwest
A New Yankee Group study of global fiber to the home claims that U.S. telcos are doing a number of things wrong, nursing copper instead of deploying fiber being chief among them. The report also takes telcos to task for trying to be network operators and content/service developers, despite not being very good innovators. The move also creates competitors out of potential business partners. From Telephony Online: "The service providers, for a large part, think they can do it on their own and may even see [potential partners] as competitors, which is ridiculous," Felten said. For example, a service provider could partner with a security company to offer home and business security services over their FTTH pipe. "Or they can crash and burn trying to offer their own security service, after which they would turn to the professionals, who then say, But you were competing with me before," Felten said. Verizon and AT&T certainly aren't making friends with many content companies over net neutrality, and AT&T is also certainly spending a lot of money on developing everything from three dimensional browsers to content portals. Those funds could be put back into the network, which AT&T consistently complains (accurately or not) is facing capacity armageddon. Yankee Group analyst Benoit Felten goes on to cite another major problem with U.S. telcos: their consistent prejudices against offering wholesale services over a FTTH network to improve ROI: "Even the financial markets are convinced that if you have to share your network, you are going to make less money. If you look at projects that are financially successful, which I would describe as break-even in five to seven years, these are projects with over 60% take-rate. Today, these are relatively small scale up to a few million homes past. On the scale of a country or a large region, if you want these take rates, you cant do it on your own. Wholesale may be a lower ARPU [average revenue per user] business, but it is a higher margin business, because costs are much lower." Of course Felten is commenting from Paris, where the French took our now-discarded 1996 local loop unbundling plan and made it work. Really embarrassingly well. Their success resulted in a highly competitive fiber to the home market where consumers are the biggest winners, able to get 100Mbps/50Mbps fiber service, VoIP and IPTV combined for as low as $40 a month. Here in the States, a 50Mbps connection alone from Verizon or Comcast (assuming you can get it) runs excess of $130 a month. But hey, don't our portals look nice. Related:- Thursday Evening Links
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Friday Evening Links
- Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Verizon: Cut Your Landline To Save Money
- Verizon's New Wireless Pricing Is An Insult
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
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Eat Me @ 13th Jan 11:24AM:
ROI
Not everyone has deep pockets like Veri$on.
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mrchris @ 13th Jan 11:31AM:
The pipe
Be the pipe and nothing else, your worthless portal garbage or other stuff besides just providing access.
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Matt @ 13th Jan 11:34AM:
Couldn't Agree More
The Telco's should stick to what they know best, moving bits from point A to point B and stop trying to get a piece of the content pie. That business model has served them well for close to a hundred years so walling off their pipes, alienating potential partners, and trying to go it alone it just plain stupid.
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Sammer @ 13th Jan 11:35AM:
Re: ROI
said by Eat Me :
Not everyone has deep pockets like Veri$on.
and $$$_AT&T_$$$.
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b10010011 @ 13th Jan 11:37AM:
ISP's should be ISP's not content providers.
Just give me the pipe, email, and a little web space.
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devnuller @ 13th Jan 11:43AM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
Does that go in the reverse too? Content companies should stop deploying network infrastructure and asking for peering. They should just pick an ISP and pay for their bandwidth usage. Right? Google? Microsoft? Netflix? Is TimeWarner a content company or an ISP? Meep meep...
Perhaps Mitsubishi should stick to making.. um, what are they allowed to make? Google should only do search, right?
Love the arm chair quarterback business analysis done here. How many of you have MBAs or have run a company before? I'd say few.
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Eat Me @ 13th Jan 11:46AM:
Re: ISP's should be ISP's not content providers.
said by b10010011 :
Just give me the pipe, email, and a little web space.
Don't even need the web space. Just open port 80.
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Dogfather @ 13th Jan 11:57AM:
Stupid
There is money to be made in media as well as the pipe. It makes ZERO sense to pass up a profitable venture because it doesn't fit the traditional description of the company. There is content other than a portal and even portals can be money makers. Even if holier than thou DSLR nerds won't use them, millions of subscribers of the ISP will. That said, it's certainly not an excuse to be recklessly stupid (eg @Home+Excite) and net neutrality should be legislated to insure these "new" media companies don't abuse their market position as the ISP to generate business.
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BF69 @ 13th Jan 12:00PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
said by devnuller :
Does that go in the reverse too? Content companies should stop deploying network infrastructure and asking for peering. They should just pick an ISP and pay for their bandwidth usage. Right? Google? Microsoft? Netflix? Is TimeWarner a content company or an ISP? Meep meep...
Perhaps Mitsubishi should stick to making.. um, what are they allowed to make? Google should only do search, right?
Love the arm chair quarterback business analysis done here. How many of you have MBAs or have run a company before? I'd say few.
Google and the others DO pay for their own bandwidth.
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PapaMidnight @ 13th Jan 12:01PM:
Spirit of Competition
Ah, the spirit of competition is alive and well here in the United States where my choices for Internet is Comcast, Comcast, and more Comcast!
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SLD @ 13th Jan 12:02PM:
Portals???
Comcast's portal/website is the biggest piece of junk I've ever used. It screams bloatware at a higher pitch than Nero!
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Karl Bode @ 13th Jan 12:06PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
Does that go in the reverse too? Content companies should stop deploying network infrastructure and asking for peering.
I think that reverse-analogy only works were content companies then using that acquired infrastructure to offer others bandwidth.
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Luminaris @ 13th Jan 12:09PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
I'd be embarrassed to write a response like this on a story that primarily talks about the telco's. Did you read the title?
Nice job man :D
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Karl Bode @ 13th Jan 12:12PM:
Re: Stupid
It makes ZERO sense to pass up a profitable venture because it doesn't fit the traditional description of the company.
The report doesn't say they should pass it up. It does say they lack the skillset to be content developers on their own. This paragraph in particular I think holds the central point:Telcos dont have the innovative structures to launch these things fast on the market, he said. What they dont understand or some of them dont is that the Internet has an ecosystem of services it acts like a venture capitalist for you. There is one project that is going to soar and 100 that are going to die. If you are going to develop these yourself, you have to be willing to invest for the 99 projects that die to get the one that succeeds. Service providers who insist on doing this themselves havent faced the fact that they should partner with these people instead of trying to replicate what they are doing.
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baineschile @ 13th Jan 12:15PM:
Re: ROI
if comcast or att were going to spend 70 billion to lay fiber...even in rural areas, where do you think that cost is going to come from? the consumer. you think prices will go down? never.
maybe it can come from a government subsidized program? the consumers tax dollars at work, plus the government control which will just saturate services. either way, the US is geograpically a big place.
france, has 333 people per square km, but most of those people are centrally located in or around paris (with a larger population in the south of france too)
the us has 180, almost half the amount of people per sq/km, and is 10 times as large as france, which means a LOT more $$$$ to run lines.
fiber may be obselete in 15 years anyways, with laser pulsing technology taking over; so why would a company want to invest in that?
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baineschile @ 13th Jan 12:17PM:
Re: The pipe
If there is money to be made, they will get involved.
For a long time, AOL was the pipe and content, and they flourished
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iansltx @ 13th Jan 12:19PM:
Me want dumb pipe...
I want a pipe charged like my electric bil. Uncapped speed, pay-per-gig, minimum service fee is fine. Fiber if possible, DOCSIS 3 if not. No e-mail (I have GMail or can pay for something else), no web space (I can get that elsewhere), no extra features. Just get me a low-latency connection to a few internet backbones at high speed with usage-based pricing (yes, I'm fine with usage-based pricing as long as it's 15 cents per GB or less) and I'll do the rest myself.
If you want to get a non-basic ISP, there should be an option for that too. A la...wait for it...qwest. Except instead of qwest.net you have an even more basic service provided for $5 per month over the line fee.
Wait...that'd actually be competitive...never mind...
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anon @ 13th Jan 01:18PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
Armchair analysis? Look, an MBA does not shield you from making bad decisions. Look at George Bush for example...
I agree, telcos whould concentrate on being the network transport and wholesaler, not the be-all everything to end users. They are doing a terrible job of that already.
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b10010011 @ 13th Jan 12:35PM:
Re: ISP's should be ISP's not content providers.
said by Eat Me :said by b10010011 :
Just give me the pipe, email, and a little web space.
Don't even need the web space. Just open port 80.
Personally I do not want to run my own web server but do agree with you that ports should not be blocked and users should be allowed to run their own servers if the wish.
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53059959 @ 13th Jan 12:47PM:
Re: ROI
haha fiber will be obsolete in 15 years?
uninstall
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battleop @ 13th Jan 12:58PM:
Re: The pipe
I bet you are not willing to pay what it costs for a dumb pipe. The "worthless portal garbage" helps to pay for and attract other paying customers how help defray the individual costs of the dumb pipes.
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Eat Me @ 13th Jan 01:05PM:
Re: ROI
said by 53059959 :
haha fiber will be obsolete in 15 years?
uninstall
There were people who thought that 640k of RAm was good enough for everyone too. :)
It is quite possible that fiber may become obsolete, but not because of its bandwidth.
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Matt @ 13th Jan 01:16PM:
Re: The pipe
said by baineschile :
For a long time, AOL was the pipe and content, and they flourished
And then this little thing called the internet came along and they were bled dry. :) I wouldn't hold up their business model as a shining example of why the ILECs should get into the content game. If anything, it proves exactly why they shouldn't.
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r81984 @ 13th Jan 01:17PM:
Re: Portals???
Nero has no bloatware. WTF??
I use Nero to burn everything.
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Dogfather @ 13th Jan 01:22PM:
Re: Stupid
What skill set they don't have, they purchase, eg instead of buying the content, buy the company that is making the content like Comcast bought Fandango.
My point is that ISPs should absolutely be content companies as they are well positioned to take advantage of being the pipe to promote their content. And like other content distributors like television networks, there is nothing saying they can't have a mixture of in-house created content and purchased or licensed outside content.
What has me nervous is ISPs having the lobbying power to stop network neutrality and in turn them abusing their market position to price competitors out of the market with either caps, overage fees, degraded network performance of competitor content, etc.
I think is this last thing that has a lot of people in the "community" not liking the idea of ISPs being content generators, even in the realm of television. Case in point is TechTV. I loved TechTV. Comcast had competing G4. Comcast buys TechTV, merges them with G4 and then kills off the TechTV content. Same thing with overage fees. You have Netflix, iTunes, XBOX Live Video, etc that will be priced out of the market with overage fees while cable/telco video skates by...of course by design.
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 01:27PM:
Re: ROI
Review their financials. AT&T alone makes NET PROFIT in the billions EVERY quarter. They can virtually pay cash to install fiber in their entire footprint. They wouldnt even be able to deploy it as fast as they earn the money. This is nothing more than a money grab by the duopolies and their stock jockies with little to no site to the future.
The writer of this is dead on. They are dumbpipes that dont realize it yet and they should be just that and regulated as so. France using our 1996 attempt clearly shows this.
You guys trying to continue to use the density argument are entertaining. Take the most dense areas in the US and compare them to the countries that have even less density and in many cases the US is still behind.
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KrK @ 13th Jan 01:33PM:
The most efficient Infrastructure system
Has always been one where one company would lay down the network and upgrade and maintain it, while offering open access to all comers (for a fee of course) to anyone who wanted to offer services over it--- be it security, Internet connectivity, Online shopping, TV, VOD services, Telephony/VOIP, etc etc etc
This would allow a powerful, modern infrastructure to be in place and continuously be upgraded--- all paid for by the actual users of said network, and at the same time provide much competition, choices, and employment opportunities for the public at large.
Unfortunately this won't happen because we're faced with the "This is MINE" mentality from our communications companies who feel anything that happens on their networks they need to be the biggest benefactors from. They want to own the pipe and all the content too.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 01:34PM:
Re: The pipe
I agree completely. However, to their "benefit" they are also in control of the medium for getting there. AOL did not have this luxury. So the AT&T's and Comcast of the world can place caps, restrictions, and premium content fees with little to no consumer recourse. AOL on the other hand lost out because of those things.
NOTE: Overage charges will fall under the category of premium content fees.
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 01:37PM:
Re: The pipe
Really? Because I do not know a single person that choose an ISP because of their HomePage Portal. Nor does a single person come to mind that actually uses one of these portals and I do an a lot of computer support for a lot of people.
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Matt @ 13th Jan 01:41PM:
Re: The pipe
said by Skippy25 :
I agree completely. However, to their "benefit" they are also in control of the medium for getting there. AOL did not have this luxury. So the AT&T's and Comcast of the world can place caps, restrictions, and premium content fees with little to no consumer recourse. AOL on the other hand lost out because of those things.
NOTE: Overage charges will fall under the category of premium content fees.
You definitely bring up two very valid points, but those points are central to what most would consider the net neutrality issue. While it seems caps and throttling may be here to stay, if the companies were to say, not count their VoD against the caps, but throttle and count a competitors service they would (will?) open themselves up to scrutiny by the FTC and FCC. With the current incoming Obama administration very pro net-neutrality and seemingly extremely pro-consumer, and Chairman "Telco-Lackey" Martin on his way out, they may not want to jump in that ring.
That is why we are seeing such a vocal movement toward "protocol agnostic" traffic shaping from folks like Comcast. As soon as Time Warner and AT&T roll out and institute their caps, the wording will be the same.
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 01:43PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
You are using network infrastructure as though they are deploying this for the consumption of the public as the current providers do. They are NOT, they are deploying this for the benefit of their business and own network. They have simply taken it a step further than getting a T1 line from the local monopoly. The consume enough bandwidth that it was economically feasible to build and to peer. That still does not make them an ISP.
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Transmaster @ 13th Jan 01:44PM:
Re: Portals???
said by r81984 :
Nero has no bloatware. WTF??
I use Nero to burn everything.
I was wondering the same thing Nero is not bloated it just does everything. However db Poweramp still has the best converter. :)
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
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SLD @ 13th Jan 01:50PM:
Re: Portals???
Did you ever wonder why cd/dvd burning software takes a 700MB download?
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tmc8080 @ 13th Jan 01:50PM:
The majority are content providers.
There was this paradise idea proposed in telecommunications regulatory reform called: recirocal competition for telco & cableco alike. Cable companies get into Phone Service & internet. Telcos get into cable and develop residential internet. For the longest time, cable companies had the decisive advantage because telco's reluctance, foot dragging, technology blunders and franchise snafu's along the way. It's only as far back as 2003 that Verizon finally put it's money where it's mouth was on "we'll get there" with dsl and changed tracks for FTTP. FIOS is not ideal, but it's as close as you can get because with a bigger telco, you get greed multiplied by the number of companies Verizon is comprised of.
Verizon must walk a fine line here.. they are making money hand over fist in their FIOS internet. Yet, they now sell cable-tv so they're in the content business. They're doubling down on LTE wireless and other projects.. that's alot on their plate.. then bang, a recession hits! They took a very long time to change tracks on POTS over fios as well.. but not too late IMO.
Cable companies actually do have alot to worry about because their core business is selling / reselling content, and it's been hard to figure out how to diversity, specialize and increase revenue without alternative sources such as WIRELESS. The remaining players such as Tmobile, Sprint and Prepaid carriers whom buy surplus network time at wholesale.
That's the state of the market today, but cable must find new ways of bringing in the dollars or they will just have to go Toe to Toe with telco in a broadband war. A war cable loses due to the fact that the killer app is probably going to be unpaid video content. Telco has 4 services it sells, while cable has only 3. Companies such as Cablevision see the future and that does mean having a wireless service in the future, but Sprint and/or Tmobile won't play ball.
Notice I don't discuess Qwest, because by 2010, they'll either be bankrupt, or a sub company of AT&T, with certain assets going to Verizon (you know how these anti-trust things work). Yep, I said it.. you will have 2 major telcos and a handful of cable companies. The worker & consumer will be screwed, because qwest will be last on the Uverse list (with the exception of cherry picked major density metro areas).
It is VERY UNLIKELY that FTTP/H will be a reality for a majority of residential customers. Verizon may just turn a corner in the next 10 years and be what they should have begun what they're doing now 6 years ago (an all IP network with FIOS Internet, VOIP Phone, Wireless, and Cable-Tv in relative order of importance to their long term survival).
I do not feel that cable will get their act together in time for companies like telcos to create the perfect monopoly storm, though Cablevision will give them a good run for their money before TWC come a'callin. The same chance Verizon is taking to begin abaondoning POTS is needed to diversify into a wireless multimedia provider. The longer they wait, the better chance a deal will become something like what TWC did with AOL (AOHELL).
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 01:52PM:
Re: Stupid
You last point is the entire issue.
They should not be content providers because they can't / won't do it in a neutral fashion that is beneficial to the consumers. They will do it in a fashion that is beneficial to their bottom line and stock jockies first and foremost. This has been demonstrated over and over and over by them over decades, if not century.
They should be dumbpipes nothing more nothing less and regulated as so. One network Nation wide. If they want to provide content, then they should have separate entities that are treated just as any other entity to gain access to the same customers. No special agreements, no backdoor deals, and no special access.
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Dogfather @ 13th Jan 02:13PM:
Re: Stupid
Even that won't work though. They'll still be up to no good, simply charging "tolls" to content providers like Google or Netflix for 'priority access'.
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 02:17PM:
Re: The pipe
I agree completely and that is kind of my point.
AOL failed because the consumer had a choice to either deal with their "throttling" and "counting" or go to an ISP that gave you the whole internet for the same cost.
This current path will begin to make it a walled off internet like AOL. Sure you will still have access, but it is at their discretion and with any surcharges they apply. Toss in that they are pretty much shielded from consumers going to a competitor because in broadband there really is no competition to speak of. And if they are all doing it, there certainly is no incentive to go from one to another anyway.
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rradina @ 13th Jan 02:21PM:
Re: The pipe
I know of very few who even have a choice. I haven't had a choice for over 10 years. When DSL came on the scene in 1998, I've been on the waiting list. Just a few thousand feet out of range. No movement from SBC(AT&T) in all of that time. The local cable company finally offered service in 2000 and I've been with them ever since. I would love to have a choice but AT&T simply cannot provide it.
Last summer they announced U-Verse in my community. Can I get it? No. Too far from the CO. Of course that would be the CO to which I am connected. Two other COs are under a mile but I guess that's not the way the wires were originally buried!
I have choices if I'm willing to go wireless. So far everything wireless I've seen is unimpressive. High latency, packet loss and slow speeds. Does WiMax fix these problems? I don't have any experience with 3G cell networks so I might be judging them unfairly -- however most have limited speeds, monthly caps, contractual ties to voice service and high prices. Cricket now offers a $40/month no-contract plan but I've read mixed reviews. It depends on the market and folks say that it has started out good and gets worse. (Assuming here that as more customers join, speeds and service levels drop...)
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Skippy25 @ 13th Jan 02:23PM:
Re: Stupid
That would fall under the "No special agreements, no backdoor deals, and no special access" provision.
Those companies (Google, Netflix) will pay. They are a business that need access to the internet. They will purchased bandwidth adequate for their business needs.but they will do it based on bandwidth need that is in accordance to standard pricing that any and every other company can access and pay.
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PapaMidnight @ 13th Jan 02:26PM:
Re: Portals???
What are you downloading that's 700MB? Nero9 clocked in at 300MB and I don't even use it. By the way, there is always Nero Micro. But even then, you don't have to install everything. I just install Nero Burning Rom and uncheck everything else. Then I immediately Disable Nero Scout and NMIndexingSrv and I'm good to go.
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funchords @ 13th Jan 02:36PM:
Re: The pipe
said by battleop :
I bet you are not willing to pay what it costs for a dumb pipe.
That's easy for you to say when the ISPs aren't offering "dumb" as an option.
said by battleop :
The "worthless portal garbage" helps to pay for and attract other paying customers how help defray the individual costs ...
Utter and complete bullcrap.
Nobody wants the portals. Nobody picks Comcast over AT&T or Verizon over Comcast because of their perception of who has the better portal.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
...just some more roadkill on the Information Superhighway...
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Eat Me @ 13th Jan 02:44PM:
Re: Portals???
said by PapaMidnight :
What are you downloading that's 700MB? Nero9 clocked in at 300MB and I don't even use it. By the way, there is always Nero Micro. But even then, you don't have to install everything. I just install Nero Burning Rom and uncheck everything else. Then I immediately Disable Nero Scout and NMIndexingSrv and I'm good to go.
300mb is still too much.
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Corydon @ 13th Jan 02:44PM:
Re: The pipe
You're on the right track. Let's follow the money here, using Comcast as an example (since everyone like to beat up on them).
Comcast puts the expenses of running its portal, plus any income that comes from advertising online or what have you into an entry on its balance sheet called "Corporate and Other". This includes all of the corporate expenses (running that nice big new building full of people in Philadelphia) and Spectacor (which is the entity that owns the Flyers, the 76ers and some other sports related stuff) as well as all of the online stuff (Comcast Interactive Media).
Total revenues for that in the third quarter of '08 were $71 million, with an overall operating cash flow loss of $119 million (and bear in mind that the online stuff is basically carrying the entire corporate overhead here). Meanwhile, overall revenues for the 3rd quarter were $8.5 billion. Operating cash flow was $3.2 billion and the operating income was $1.7 billion.
In other words, all of this online stuff is a drop in the bucket. You might as well complain about Comcast's share repurchases ($2.8 billion YTD) or dividend payments ($180 million on 10/29/08).
Source: »www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=11···ghlight=
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now thats crazy!"
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Matt @ 13th Jan 02:45PM:
Re: The pipe
said by funchords :said by battleop :
I bet you are not willing to pay what it costs for a dumb pipe.
That's easy for you to say when the ISPs aren't offering "dumb" as an option.
said by battleop :
The "worthless portal garbage" helps to pay for and attract other paying customers how help defray the individual costs ...
Utter and complete bullcrap.
Nobody
wants the portals. Nobody picks Comcast over AT&T or Verizon over Comcast because of their perception of who has the better portal.
I have to agree.
People chose Comcast or AT&T based on which company has the best price, or in rare cases, which company provides better service.
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DaSneaky1D @ 13th Jan 02:46PM:
Re: ROI
"laser pulsing technology"
What in the world? Until you can show me a self motivated laser that can bend around a corner, I don't think the fiber medium is anywhere close to becoming obsolete.
Fiber is a physical carrier. A laser is the logical carrier that contains the signal.
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:: my trivial ramblings ::
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SLD @ 13th Jan 02:49PM:
Re: Portals???
Sorry, 382 MB for the base install. Ha - for a DVD writer.
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Corydon @ 13th Jan 02:53PM:
Re: The pipe
said by funchords :
Utter and complete bullcrap.
Nobody wants the portals. Nobody picks Comcast over AT&T or Verizon over Comcast because of their perception of who has the better portal.
I'd say people expect the portals. How many ISPs don't offer email? How much ISPs don't offer a place to post a webpage (which also incidentally saves a lot of upstream bandwidth)?
And how many people here like the idea of programming their DVR online? Or looking at their TV guide online? Or checking voicemail online? Or want to check and pay their bill online? Or any of these other synergies across the product line?
Or what about the people that ISPs push to get some kind of virus protection on their computer (perhaps not the best stuff on the market, but a heck of a lot better than nothing)? Just how many more zombies would a "dumb pipe" ISP have on its network?
All of these are "portal" activities. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, as corporate expenses go, they're not terribly big impacts on the bottom line (or on capital expenditures for that matter).
--
"2 Strangers + 1 20 minute ceremony + $50 + 10 shots of tequila = Holy Matrimony and 1st Class Protections Under the Law
now thats crazy!"
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battleop @ 13th Jan 02:57PM:
Re: The pipe
Someone must be using them. If they were getting zero hits a day they wouldn't run them.
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TKJunkMail @ 13th Jan 03:04PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
said by devnuller :
Does that go in the reverse too? Content companies should stop deploying network infrastructure and asking for peering. They should just pick an ISP and pay for their bandwidth usage. Right? Google? Microsoft? Netflix? Is TimeWarner a content company or an ISP? Meep meep...
Perhaps Mitsubishi should stick to making.. um, what are they allowed to make? Google should only do search, right?
Love the arm chair quarterback business analysis done here. How many of you have MBAs or have run a company before? I'd say few.
Good points. And also the reason the cable and telcos got in to providing content is because the content providers(every bit as much of a near monopoly as the cable companies & telcos) were raping the cable companies with the prices they charge for TV content. They got in to that business just to give the content monopoly some competition.
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TKJunkMail @ 13th Jan 03:06PM:
Re: Portals???
said by SLD :
Comcast's portal/website is the biggest piece of junk I've ever used. It screams bloatware at a higher pitch than Nero!
The portal isn't the main content supplied by cable companies. It is the TV networks they own to compete with Hollywood and their near monopoly on TV content.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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NetAdmin @ 13th Jan 03:10PM:
Re: Couldn't Agree More
said by devnuller :
Does that go in the reverse too?
How many content companies do you know of that offer retail internet access to consumers and businesses? The answer is none, so it already is working in reverse. Companies like Yahoo and Google know their strengths and know that expanding too far outside their core business to something like providing retail internet access would hurt, rather than help them.
Love the arm chair quarterback business analysis done here. How many of you have MBAs or have run a company before? I'd say few.
And isn't it funny how MBAs and executives think they know how to run networks better than the engineers and admins who are in the trenches. If it is good for the goose, it must be good for the gander.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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battleop @ 13th Jan 03:13PM:
Re: The pipe
"That's easy for you to say when the ISPs aren't offering "dumb" as an option."
They do offer these types of circuits. They don't market them to the consumer because the consumer will not pay the price for a business or enterprise class circuit.
"Nobody wants the portals. Nobody picks Comcast over AT&T or Verizon over Comcast because of their perception of who has the better portal.
That's a pretty big claim that you can't backup. Do you honestly believe that no one visits their portal?
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NetAdmin @ 13th Jan 03:18PM:
Re: The pipe
said by baineschile :
For a long time, AOL was the pipe and content, and they flourished
They flourished because the ability to get to any content outside of AOL's was a drag. when AOL had its heyday, back in the 90s, the internet lacked a lot of the readily accessible content that is out there now. There was no reuters.com or cnbc.com. You almost had to have your provider give it to your with your service.
But as it has already been said, with the internet, that model is unsustainable. People are going to get their content from sources of their own choosing. The walled garden approach doesn't work any more.
And providers like Verizon and ATT getting into the internet content game are going to get thoroughly beaten. Companies that focus purely on content will eat them for breakfast because it is hard to beat someone in their core business, especially when it is not yours.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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battleop @ 13th Jan 03:20PM:
Re: ISP's should be ISP's not content providers.
"email, and a little web space."
That's not a dumb pipe. Even email would be considered "content". A dumb pipe is A to Z and nothing else. You would need to provide your own Email, hosting, DNS, etc...
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sousademiami @ 13th Jan 04:03PM:
Re: ROI
I think fiber may likely become obsolete in 15 years or less because of wireless services. If 4G delivers on it's promise, it could be the end of landline services of any kind, TV, Phone, Internet, etc.
--
OASAASLLS
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Eat Me @ 13th Jan 04:05PM:
Re: ROI
said by sousademiami :
I think fiber may likely become obsolete in 15 years or less because of wireless services. If 4G delivers on it's promise, it could be the end of landline services of any kind, TV, Phone, Internet, etc.
That is what I was thinking, but wireless is still very susceptible to electromagnetic interference. Fiber is not.
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funchords @ 13th Jan 04:11PM:
Re: The pipe
said by Corydon :said by funchords :
Utter and complete bullcrap.
Nobody wants the portals. Nobody picks Comcast over AT&T or Verizon over Comcast because of their perception of who has the better portal.
I'd say people
expect the portals. How many ISPs don't offer email? How much ISPs don't offer a place to post a webpage (which also incidentally saves a lot of upstream bandwidth)?
And how many people here like the idea of programming their DVR online? Or looking at their TV guide online? Or checking voicemail online? Or want to check and pay their bill online? Or any of these other synergies across the product line?
Or what about the people that ISPs push to get some kind of virus protection on their computer (perhaps not the best stuff on the market, but a heck of a lot better than nothing)? Just how many more zombies would a "dumb pipe" ISP have on its network?
All of these are "portal" activities. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, as corporate expenses go, they're not terribly big impacts on the bottom line (or on capital expenditures for that matter).
Every single thing you've mentioned here can be provided by someone other than the ISP.
Content and carriage need to be separated.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
...just some more roadkill on the Information Superhighway...
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funchords @ 13th Jan 04:14PM:
Re: ROI
said by Eat Me :said by sousademiami :
I think fiber may likely become obsolete in 15 years or less because of wireless services. If 4G delivers on it's promise, it could be the end of landline services of any kind, TV, Phone, Internet, etc.
That is what I was thinking, but wireless is still very susceptible to electromagnetic interference. Fiber is not.
I've seen 4G. It's a rival for last-generation DSL, and kicks-ass when mobile. It's great, but unfortunately it's not going to take us far into the future.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
...just some more roadkill on the Information Superhighway...
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hottboiinnc @ 13th Jan 04:29PM:
Re: The pipe
Wireless and cell network internet are different. Have you ever looked into a WISP? who is an actual Wireless Internet provider?
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hottboiinnc @ 13th Jan 04:31PM:
Re: The pipe
And where is your national ISP to provide this service?
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sousademiami @ 13th Jan 04:50PM:
Re: ROI
That would likely be acceptable for consumer applications, I'm not saying that business customers would make the switch. But for home use, having interference once in a while would be a small price to pay for greatly reduced cost.
--
OASAASLLS
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baineschile @ 13th Jan 05:00PM:
Re: ROI
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_···_ranging
Wireless and Satellite could be the future....
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anon @ 13th Jan 06:40PM:
Re: ROI
said by sousademiami :
I think fiber may likely become obsolete in 15 years or less because of wireless services. If 4G delivers on it's promise, it could be the end of landline services of any kind, TV, Phone, Internet, etc.
Oh, please! :o
In terms of real world speed, WiMAX is at BEST a competitor for current DSL! I'm working with the stuff right now, and it's not that impressive a technology. I'll take my home cable connection any day!
And the financials are worse. It has very high signal strength requirements to sustain a good connection, compared to conventional cellular, and, in its current incarnation, is situated at a very unfavorable frequency. Therefore, it suffers from very poor building penetration, not much coverage, which all translates to needing a LOT of expensive sites to make it work.
LTE will probably be deployed at a much more favorable 700 MHz, but still, it will require a very good signal to deliver good data rates, which will require a lot of sites.
Then there's the backhaul. You need to get that data stream from the wireless site to the core network somehow. Currently, this is a big concern in the industry.
Wireless may will do well in rural areas where it's just too expensive to run miles and miles of cable (in the same way voice wireless has brought phone service to many 3rd world countries), but it's NOT going to render obsolete any current technologies.
And satellite? A niche market at best. Capacity will always be too low, and latency too high, to make it a mass market data technology.
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funchords @ 13th Jan 05:44PM:
Re: ROI
said by sousademiami :
...consumer applications, I'm not saying that business customers...
Many of us work where we live and live where we work. Our home is our office and our building is THIS NETWORK.
We need to get out of this 1950's "residential class" and "business class" paradigm.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
...just some more roadkill on the Information Superhighway...
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b10010011 @ 13th Jan 09:41PM:
Re: ISP's should be ISP's not content providers.
said by battleop :
"email, and a little web space."
That's not a dumb pipe. Even email would be considered "content". A dumb pipe is A to Z and nothing else. You would need to provide your own Email, hosting, DNS, etc...
No that would be internet services, something that an Internet Service Provider should provide.
Content is web portals like »www.comcast.net containing things like Autos, Dating, Entertainment, Finance, Games, Jobs, Music, News, Shopping, Sports, Travel, TV, Videos, Etc...
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rradina @ 13th Jan 10:54PM:
Re: The pipe
We use a "wireless" provider in our lab at work. It's really bad. 4 - 7% packet loss. Fine for surfing but makes anything else maddening. They've replaced the radio transmitter on our building's roof several times. They've replaced their end but it still has packet loss. My parents out in the country have point-to-point wireless and it too has packet loss. They are about 3 miles from the "water tower" where the ISP's receiver is. Again, fine for surfing but not much else.
Are these examples of WISPs?
Note: Both of these solutions do not use traditional 802 "WiFi" technology. They are wireless but I don't know if they qualify as a WISP.
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hottboiinnc @ 13th Jan 10:57PM:
Re: The pipe
They are a WISP but i wouldn't consider them like any like Tim or anyone else that posts here in the WISP Forum from all over. There are a couple WISPs here from MO you should talk to them.
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Corydon @ 14th Jan 12:48AM:
Re: The pipe
said by funchords :
Every single thing you've mentioned here can be provided by someone other than the ISP.
Content and carriage need to be separated.
As long as net neutrality is respected why can't Comcast (or any other company for that matter) get into the content game?
OK, fine. You don't like what they have to offer. Don't use it. Problem solved.
Some of this is, I admit, a matter of tradition. For example, every single ISP I've ever had, going back to the university account that I accessed using a 2400 bps modem in the late '80s and early '90s has provided me with at least one email address.
For other stuff, there's an undeniable benefit to the network having the ISP provide at least some online content. I've already mentioned how it's in everyone's best interest to have ISPs pushing some kind of security suite on their customers. You and I may be fine with going out and finding our own software, but we both know that there are lots of people out there who won't do it unless they are helped (not everyone's got ready access to a geek).
Other stuff, like Fancast, is obviously an attempt to get out in front of a trend that may potentially end up undercutting their core business. Why shouldn't they do that?
And when it comes right down to it, is watching a TV show on Fancast "content" that the ISP shouldn't do, when watching the same TV show on cable TV is legit?
Arguably, there are some things that ISPs seem to do better than third parties; VoIP would appear to be a case in point considering how many third party VoIP companies have disappeared or are on life support while cable VoIP subscribers are still growing. Or is that not "content"? (Whatever...it's certainly an online service). Are you saying that Comcast should not have gotten into that business? Something that's adding considerably to the company's bottom line these days?
--
"2 Strangers + 1 20 minute ceremony + $50 + 10 shots of tequila = Holy Matrimony and 1st Class Protections Under the Law
now thats crazy!"
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funchords @ 14th Jan 01:18AM:
Re: The pipe
said by Corydon :
As long as net neutrality is respected why can't Comcast (or any other company for that matter) get into the content game?
Because it never is respected. That's why DSL's competition never really formed up, because the incumbent ISP also owned the pipes and could jack up the "wholesale" price.
We have ISPs hijacking DNS to advertising, breaking this valuable service -- in some case, even blocking the use of 3rd-party service (Sprint Mobile).
And then we had AT&T threatening content providers that they'll have to pay up to reach customers or get the dregs of what's left; Virgin said the same thing; Aussie ISPs are breaking their caps for their "preferred" partners; and we have Viacom threatening ISPs that if they don't buy their TV channels that they'll cut off their Internet users!
Freedom on the Internet means you can go wherever you want without undo influence. It's getting to the point where there's a lot of undo influence -- and pretty much the Internet will eventually become like your TV set -- you get to choose from whatever they pick out for you to watch ... and this wonderful 25-year experiment of breaking down barriers to commerce and knowledge will be over.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
...just some more roadkill on the Information Superhighway...
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cdru @ 14th Jan 09:36AM:
Re: ROI
said by sousademiami :
I think fiber may likely become obsolete in 15 years or less because of wireless services. If 4G delivers on it's promise, it could be the end of landline services of any kind, TV, Phone, Internet, etc.
Lets get 3G service to cover a larger footprint before blessing 4G as the savior to all communication services.
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sousademiami @ 14th Jan 09:51AM:
Re: ROI
Yes, you pegged it, my use of the words "if" and "could" were meant to convey that I was blessing 4G as my savior!
--
OASAASLLS
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NetAdmin @ 14th Jan 11:40AM:
Re: The pipe
said by battleop :
I bet you are not willing to pay what it costs for a dumb pipe.
I pay for a "dumb pipe" to my house and the costs are only incrementally higher than the standard, home user oriented version.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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batterup @ 7th Feb 01:26AM:
Re: ROI
said by Eat Me :
Not everyone has deep pockets like Veri$on.
I own Verizon and lost 23% in one year.
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