Lawmaker Unveils Anti-Metered Billing Law - But will it survive a heavily-lobbied Congress?
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Lawmaker Unveils Anti-Metered Billing Law But will it survive a heavily-lobbied Congress? 05:40PM Wednesday Jun 17 2009 by Karl Bode tags: dsl · legal · competition · business · bandwidth · legislation · consumers · caps · AT&T · RoadRunner Cable · AT&T Midwest · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Prompted by Time Warner Cable's botched attempt to force low caps and metered billing on its customers, Rep. Eric Massa (D-N.Y.) today unveiled the "Broadband Internet Fairness Act" (HR 2902), legislation aimed at protecting consumers from unreasonable broadband overage charges. Massa, prompted by consumer complaints, stepped up during the Time Warner Cable kerfuffle to call the effort an "outrageous, job killing initiative." Massa today unveiled the legislation with help from consumer advocacy firm Free Press and Phillip Dampier, the Broadband Reports user who went on to create the Stop The Cap blog to protest unreasonable billing models by broadband carriers. In a statement, Free Press lauded Dampier's involvement and Massa's reaction as "inspiring example of grassroots activism." Dampier became involved after realizing that Time Warner Cable's plan would have tripled his Time Warner Cable bill for the exact same service he'd had since 1998. Dampier's blog came to fruition when local Rochester, NY telco Frontier Communications began exploring 5GB monthly caps for all DSL users. Frontier ultimately backed off the plan when they realized it made better business sense to sit back and soak up customers fleeing from Time Warner Cable, one of which was, ironically, Dampier. Dampier's also blogged about Frontier's horrible customer service and slow DSL speeds, and how they've placed him between a rock (high overages) and a hard place (poor service). The proposed legislation (pdf) imposes the following requirements on ISPs: Requires internet service providers (ISPs) to submit plans to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), in consultation with the FCC if they plan to move to a usage-based plan Prohibits volume usage plans if the FTC determines that these plans are imposing rates, terms, and conditions that are unreasonable or discriminatory Sets up public hearings for plans submitted to the FTC for public review and input; Only affects internet providers with 2 million or more subscribers Imposes penalties for broadband ISPs that ignore these rules "Cable providers want to stifle the internet so they can rake in advertiser dollars by keeping consumers from watching video on the Internet," says Massa. "But so long as Americans can't choose which cable channels they want to pay for, I don't think cable operators should be able to determine consumers' monthly internet usage," he says. "Additionally, charging based on a bandwidth usage is a flawed model when the cost of usage is totally out of line with the price." In Time Warner Cable's case, up to 2,000% over cost, in fact. Such a bill will of course be a nightmare for ISPs, most of whom dream of migrating to a metered billing model. While carriers like to claim the move is made necessary by fiscal and network limitations, inspection of hard data suggests otherwise. Carriers have been very profitable under the flat-rate billing model, and rumors of a looming bandwidth apocalypse are very much overstated for political effect. In reality, the move to metered billing is driven by a desire to offset future losses to TV revenues caused by an explosion in Internet video use. While the Time Warner Cable scenario was a very unique instance of real grass roots activism bending the will of a major corporation, it's hard to think this (or any legislation mandating how ISPs price services) will make it through a heavily lobbied Congress. Verizon for one has been anticipating such a move, company lobbyists pretending any network neutrality or pricing control regulation would prohibit them from offering parental controls. AT&T, who's conducting metered billing trials in both Beaumont Texas and Reno, Nevada, was quick to respond when asked for comment. "The Free Press Solution advocates for a radical and unprecedented government mandate that will demand that consumers have only one all-you-can-eat pricing model for Internet services," says the carrier. "Free Press prefers that grandma - who simply wants to download their grandchildren's online photos a few times a month - to pay for the heavy-using teenager who is downloading HD movies." The argument that light users (grandma) "cross subsidizes" heavier users is a familiar -- and incorrect -- talking point. Taken to its logical conclusion, "grandma" should be paying $3 a month for bandwidth -- a service tier you'll surely never see AT&T offer. Likewise, if AT&T was truly only interested in managing heavy users, they could target them specifically by migrating them to business class tiers or by instituting a high cap only those users would hit. Instead, these metered billing efforts are aimed at impacting all users. Again, regardless of the ocean of carrier rhetoric on this front, the push toward metered billing isn't about the users of today, it's about nickel and diming the Internet video users of tomorrow. Should users begin getting TV content online and find that subscribing to AT&T U-Verse wasn't necessary, AT&T then has a way to ensure that they can offset this lost revenue with bandwidth surcharges. The push is primarily focused on pleasing investors, who likewise see the protectionist aspect, but also adore the idea of consumers paying more money for the same product -- a product that's getting incrementally cheaper to supply. There's a huge push for this coming from the investment community, and as we predicted, the industry's giants are going to spend millions on farmed data, lobbyists and public relations in order to get their way. Expect Massa to lose this particular fight, barring some kind of K-Street miracle. That brings us back to our point from last summer, about how certain things need to happen before we can seriously tackle broadband reform. Loosening corporations' tight grip on regulators needs to happen first, after which government can focus on finding ways to increase competition. Competition is the cure for everything from network neutrality violations to unreasonable pricing, and until we see more of it -- we're going nowhere fast. Related:- Thursday Morning Links
- Thursday Evening Links
- Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
- Customer Battles Time Warner Overages
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 05:49PM:
Excellent.....
Its a start....this will be interesting to see who opposes this besides the usual suspects!
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en102 @ 17th Jun 05:50PM:
Botched analogy
quote:
"Free Press prefers that grandma - who simply wants to download their grandchildren's online photos a few times a month - to pay for the heavy-using teenager who is downloading HD movies."
Grandma that wants to download online photos a few times / month should probably pay ~ $10-$15/month, and 'high' end users should be in the $40-$100/month (6Mbps -> 50Mbps).
The 'caps' on grandma's usage would be a paltry 5GB - not even enough to download typical service pack upgrades without overages.
While I don't like caps, at least Comcast has set a 'usable' 250GB cap. Just because I don't need high speed, doesn't mean I don't want to 'use' the Internet.
I'd almost laugh at this part... I see a BIG shell game here:
quote:
Only affects internet providers with 2 million or more subscribers
AT&T of Santa Clarita, AT&T of San Fernando Valley, AT&T of Burbank....
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Bit @ 17th Jun 05:51PM:
Sensible regulation
quote:
Requires internet service providers (ISPs) to submit plans to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), in consultation with the FCC if they plan to move to a usage-based plan;
Prohibits volume usage plans if the FTC determines that these plans are imposing rates, terms, and conditions that are unreasonable or discriminatory;
Sets up public hearings for plans submitted to the FTC for public review and input;
Only affects internet providers with 2 million or more subscribers;
Imposes penalties for broadband ISPs that ignore these rules;
I read the bill »massa.house.gov/uploads/Broadban···sAct.pdf and it is completely sensible, forcing larger providers to justify their prices. And when justified by any number of reasons outlined, they get their pricing schedule approved. But if the effect of the price schedule adversely impacts competition or is not justified by the costs of deploying and providing the service, they don't get to gouge their customers.
Simply put, like utilities, these providers need only justify their gouging. So if they are being beaten by bandwidth or upgrade costs to the point they can't be profitable, let them prove it. But if they are shown to be full of crap like Bell Canada was, they'll get laughed out of the room (at least until their checks to Congress clear and pressure is put on the FTC to let cable and telcos abuse their market position to defend video revenues).
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Tails @ 17th Jun 05:53PM:
Like I said in a previous thread...
...the only way to change things is to get the people educated and show them that this is a problem: that carriers who wish to impliment such rediculous pricing models (aka TWC) are only doing this for the reason Karl states above.
The people have to start caring and start doing something, or nothing will be done.
People really have forgotten how much power they hold vs the government/corporations.
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BigMac777 @ 17th Jun 05:54PM:
Politician For The People
Finally a politician stepping up and doing the right thing for the people.
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TKJunkMail @ 17th Jun 05:55PM:
This bill will never make it thru Congress
This bill is populist nonsense by a Congressman peeved at TWC and their metered billing plans.
If you go to his web site, one argument he uses for having this bill is pure BS. Does he think the voters and his fellow congresscritters are ALL idiots?
»massa.house.gov/?sectionid=24&pa···emid=316
In April, when Time Warner Cable in Rochester announced that they would begin overcharging customers based on their bandwidth usage, a group of doctors approached Congressman Massa and informed him that if the proposal was enacted, they would be forced to raise rates on their patients. Time Warner's new program would have raised the cost of their current unlimited internet plan from $50 per month to $150 per month
LOL. Right - $100 more per month for internet access would cause doctors to raise their patient charges. Who is he kidding. Like they need an excuse to do that anyway.
Karl calls it right on this bill:
it's hard to think this (or any legislation mandating how ISPs price services) will make it through a heavily lobbied Congress.
Expect Massa to lose this particular fight, barring some kind of K-Street miracle.
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me1212 @ 17th Jun 05:56PM:
Re: Botched analogy
"Grandma that wants to download online photos a few times / month should probably pay ~ $10-$15/month, and 'high' end users should be in the $40-$100/month (6Mbps -> 50Mbps).
The 'caps' on grandma's usage would be a paltry 5GB - not even enough to download typical service pack upgrades without overages."
I agree, if they want 'grandma' to pay less charge her like $10 for a 768-ish connection. If I want a 100m connection so I can and most likely will do more then I do not mind paying more. But make it reasonable.
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me1212 @ 17th Jun 06:01PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
But at least it looks like some1 may actually be listening to us for a change.
Maybe this will get the cap into the main stream view and people will learn what it is and how it works ect. And it if does get into the main stream the ISPs should NOT be the only ones who can educate the people, groups like stop the cap consumer advocates and people who want to say why caps are bad should be able to speak up.
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 06:02PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
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Mr Matt @ 17th Jun 06:04PM:
Lack of Oxygen causes Brain Damage.
:D The lack of Oxygen at the top of the ivory towers have caused the ISP Executives brain damage and lack of logic. They forget that most local telephone service is flat rate and unlimited. Unlike a switched connection a TCP/IP connection does not tie up a path through the network. Those executives need to get their screws tightened. Give Eric Massa a thumbs up for me.
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hayabusa3303 @ 17th Jun 06:05PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
If you go to his web site, one argument he uses for having this bill is pure BS.
But arent most bills BS anyway and they pass with flying colors. :huh:
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Bit @ 17th Jun 06:05PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
Shocking...isn't it.
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hayabusa3303 @ 17th Jun 06:08PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by S_engineer :
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
He has stock in TW whats why he says that.
Be funny as hell if this takes place and the stock takes a big dump. No golf today there TK. All your money just went down the tubes just to make a buck.
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TKJunkMail @ 17th Jun 06:12PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by S_engineer :
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
If I was CEO of TWC I wouldn't be pricing the way they planned on doing it. It was a supremely stupid move on their part. Their CEO should be summarily fired. I've posted here before on how I would structure prices.
But I do believe that as a private corporation that TWC should be able to decide on how to price their services. What we don't need is more meddling in the decisions of individual corporations by the government. There is already too much of that now.
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TKJunkMail @ 17th Jun 06:14PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by hayabusa3303 :said by S_engineer :
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
He has stock in TW whats why he says that.
I have stock in 100's of corporations around the globe. I have no special interest in TWC and I couldn't even tell you exactly how much I have invested there. But it would be much less than 1% of my portfolio. So that has no part in my feelings about this bill submitted by a brain dead populist idiot of a congresscritter.
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Eat Me @ 17th Jun 06:15PM:
2 million or more subscribers?
Once again, the democrats only care about people living in large urban areas.
PenTeleData will continue to screw us out with their low caps and lack of competition out here. :(
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Wizeguy @ 17th Jun 06:16PM:
Unlimted Broadband
I want low cost unlimited wireless and broadband and be able to watch live TV on the internet anyplace in the world. Is that too much to ask for? Geesh people throw me a bone here!!!
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Bit @ 17th Jun 06:19PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
But I do believe that as a private corporation that TWC should be able to decide on how to price their services. What we don't need is more meddling in the decisions of individual corporations by the government. There is already too much of that now.
Sure because corporations can be trusted not to abuse their market position (in data services) when competing with one another (in per-view video services). Because they can't be trusted is why we have an FTC in the first place.
If they aren't lying sacks of crap (like Bell Canada) they'll get their 'needed' price schedule. But they can not be permitted to raise HSI rates in defense of video revenues.
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major marco @ 17th Jun 06:20PM:
Beautiful Theory...
Too bad if it's even taken to committee that the paid corporate whores lobbyists will ensure that it will be watered down/loopholed/ reversed to the extent where it will be completely and utterly ::WORTHLESS:: as most bills of this nature tend to be reduced to.
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baineschile @ 17th Jun 06:21PM:
Re: Excellent.....
There is a difference between metering and caps.
No law should tell an ISP how to manage their network. As long as the cap is fair, it should be enforced.
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insomniac84 @ 17th Jun 06:22PM:
Re: Botched analogy
Never going to happen. The whole purpose is to have people still pay 30-40ish a month but charge them double or more if they partake in competing video services or any high bandwidth service. Everyone's bill basically goes up to make up for lost cable revenue.
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 06:23PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
I've got a bunch of stocks too, however, I don't want to have to pay $50 in overage costs to make a $5 dividend. And because someone actually has the balls to enact a law benefiting the consumer does not make him a populist. TW tryed to Madoff their consumer base, and you don't expect a reaction?
Think it through before you answer
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 06:27PM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by baineschile :
No law should tell an ISP how to manage their network. As long as the cap is fair, it should be enforced.
Fair is too subjective, this is why a cap must be defined as a cost, or other such term so it can be regulated
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swintec @ 17th Jun 06:33PM:
Penalties?
"Imposes penalties for broadband ISPs that ignore these rules"
What kind of penalty are we talking? A few thousand a day? I have to think if they pull these types of caps off, the additional revenue they make off of them will more than make up for the penalty they have to pay....so they will gladly pay up, with a huge grin on there face.
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Matt @ 17th Jun 06:35PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :said by S_engineer :
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
If I was CEO of TWC I wouldn't be pricing the way they planned on doing it. It was a supremely stupid move on their part. Their CEO should be summarily fired. I've posted here before on how I would structure prices.
But I do believe that as a private corporation that TWC should be able to decide on how to price their services. What we don't need is more meddling in the decisions of individual corporations by the government. There is already too much of that now.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong Tk. De-regulation has gotten us nothing but pathetic speeds at high prices. And now the pig is back at the trough to feed some more. It's time the government stepped in and either force these companies to offer top-notch, world-leading broadband, or require them to prove to us why they continue to raise rates and implement blatantly obvious plans to stifle competition while offering broadband speeds on par with Estonia. If the broadband landscape was rife with competition like the Northeast US, I would agree that the government should butt out; however, it's not.
I hope everyone writes their local representatives in support of this bill. I know I will.
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Hpower @ 17th Jun 06:38PM:
Damn the metered billing
Finally someone speaks up. I really hope something good comes out of this.
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KrK @ 17th Jun 06:42PM:
Re: Excellent.....
It's not a law about managing your network. It's a consumer protection law against getting ripped off legally.
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Dampier @ 17th Jun 06:45PM:
Phillip Replies....
A few thoughts based on some of the comments:
1) Regardless of whether this bill passes or not, it's a very strong reminder that consumers need not simply sit back and take abusive, unjustified pricing schemes. There is a real cost ISPs have to consider and that is in goodwill. Managing bad press and consumer outrage can get expensive.
2) Lack of competition is a major problem in communities like Rochester that have zero prospect of fiber to the home because we're stuck with a phone company that is now going to have to spend time and attention trying to absorb Verizon's castoffs. That allows broadband backwaters to develop in under competitive communities like ours, which used to be one of NY's highest tech communities.
3) I know the doctors Massa is referring to. Their concerns were broader than that, talking about whether people would want to live and go to school in a community left behind with expensive, slow, capped access. There are people who buy homes based on what broadband is available there. Rochester is trying to move from a manufacturing community into biotech. The University of Rochester (and the medical center) have now replaced Kodak as our largest employer. It's hard to be a biotech leader with 3.1Mbps DSL and capped Road Runner when Buffalo and Syracuse are in a speed race with Verizon and FiOS.
4) Rural communities will not be thrown under the bus. Anyone who reads my site knows I have a special fondness for calling out lousy providers (FairPoint being a particularly good example). No rural area should be forced to endure broadband backwater status with low speed DSL as their "broadband" service. But we need to tackle that through the broadband stimulus bill to deploy funding for construction of broadband networks WITH CONDITIONS to make sure companies like Frontier don't get the money and throw a 5GB cap on everyone.
This bill is not perfect and there are issues we are working on behind the scenes to address some of the more vague language and the enforcement mechanisms, which rely too much on agencies that don't always run with the ball. But it's not an omnibus piece of legislation designed to fix everything. It's designed to stop what the industry calls consumption based pricing, but is really profit padding and content protectionism.
We need everyone who cares about this issue to get involved and ask their member of Congress to co-sponsor the bill. You'll find a lot more detail under the Take Action! section on Stopthecap.com with toll free numbers to call, language to use, and how to make a difference.
The amazing thing is, we succeeded in April to get one behemoth provider to shelve this stuff temporarily. Now we need to move in with the wooden stake and kill it for good.
There is nothing wrong with tiers based on speed, and I know a lot of folks ready and happy to pony up more money for better, faster service. They just don't want to pay 300% more for the exact same service they get right now.
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KrK @ 17th Jun 06:46PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
This bill is populist nonsense by a Congressman peeved at TWC and their metered billing plans.
And that's bad because....?
Yeah, we know it's not likely to succeed... but it's worth it to at least try.
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 06:50PM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
Good work Phillip....we'll push from this end
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chimera @ 17th Jun 06:50PM:
Re: Unlimted Broadband
There's a difference between throwing out an impossible price model, and telling a company who is trying to price gouge that if they want to price for usage that they need to drop their base cost, and actually have the usage cost reflect the cost of service.
Few people here are objecting to the theory of having metered prices, but the average user should be paying less than they do now according to ISP rhetoric that 90% of the usage comes from 10% of the users as the costs will start being distributed properly. That isn't going to happen, and that is why congress and the FCC and FTC need to make sure that monopolistic activities don't result in consumers being exploited even more than they already are.
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funchords @ 17th Jun 06:58PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by S_engineer :
Come on tk, you can't possibly be on the side of TW are you?
You can't possibly be surprised. :)
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funchords @ 17th Jun 07:02PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
But I do believe that as a private corporation that TWC should be able to decide on how to price their services. What we don't need is more meddling in the decisions of individual corporations by the government. There is already too much of that now.
Congress disagrees with you, even without this law, the law requires the FCC to regulate communications providers such that charges for services are reasonable.
And before you declare TWC's network as "private," consider the significant public and non-TWC-owned private property that it sits on and the competition-exclusive government agreements that allowed it to be established. That doesn't make it public property, but it does mean that there's a significant public interest in it.
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funchords @ 17th Jun 07:04PM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by baineschile :
No law should tell an ISP how to manage their network. As long as the cap is fair, it should be enforced.
And this proposed law says the same thing. It doesn't outlaw metering and caps, it just requires them to be fair.
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S_engineer @ 17th Jun 07:06PM:
Re: Excellent.....
Your right KrK, this is a consumer protection law and should be touted as one. This will be maligned by the carriers and their lobbiests, and Congressmen with huge pockets will look away. But if this argument is framed as consumer protection, then it will be harder for Congress to vote against this. This law as its written has components that look like laws that govern utlilities.
This should be expected for a platform that is now integrated into our economy in so many different ways.
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me1212 @ 17th Jun 07:07PM:
Re: Excellent.....
"It's a consumer protection law against getting ripped off legally."
This.
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me1212 @ 17th Jun 07:09PM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
I will try to help too.
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robl27 @ 17th Jun 07:11PM:
Re: Excellent.....
This bullshit will not work, too many poor people who can not afford it. Unless we have little sheep out there, I think the people will speak with their wallets as already one person did. In the B Texas area did.
-Rob
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en102 @ 17th Jun 07:12PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
The problem is that ISPs are not utilities, and are not subject to that kind of regulation.
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Gbcue @ 17th Jun 07:13PM:
Re: Botched analogy
said by en102 :
AT&T of Santa Clarita, AT&T of San Fernando Valley, AT&T of Burbank....
Now they're all separate entities with independent pricing structures and speed tiers.
Now you've got a jumble of 1,000,000 different AT&T ISPs confusing the consumer.
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BF69 @ 17th Jun 07:13PM:
Re: Botched analogy
said by en102 : quote:
"Free Press prefers that grandma - who simply wants to download their grandchildren's online photos a few times a month - to pay for the heavy-using teenager who is downloading HD movies."
Grandma that wants to download online photos a few times / month
should probably pay ~ $10-$15/month, and 'high' end users should be in the $40-$100/month (6Mbps -> 50Mbps).
The 'caps' on grandma's usage would be a paltry 5GB - not even enough to download typical service pack upgrades without overages.
While I don't like caps, at least Comcast has set a 'usable' 250GB cap. Just because I don't need high speed, doesn't mean I don't want to 'use' the Internet.
You theory assumes ISPs are willing to drastically lower the prices for the low useage customers. That's the rub. They still want to charge those customers the SAME rate yet tell everyone how they are some how saving them money, by charging high useage customers more. Hey I don't have a problem with a low usage person being charged less, but unless the ISPs actually lower those prices it's all bullshit. All those low useage customers that are for this and think they are going to see lower rates are fooling themselves. In 5 years when they are "high useage" customers they'll regret being for metered billing and caps.
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en102 @ 17th Jun 07:17PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
I tend to agree on both of your statements.
Personally, I would have expected TWC/AT&T to 'highball' the CAPS like Comcast did, but I expect that they're under pressure for profit (Comcast's typically charges more than TWC to begin with)
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BF69 @ 17th Jun 07:17PM:
Re: 2 million or more subscribers?
said by Eat Me :
Once again, the democrats only care about people living in large urban areas.
PenTeleData will continue to screw us out with their low caps and lack of competition out here. :(
If you people in the boonies actually voted for them maybe they'd care more. Personaly if you don't like me why in the hell should I do anything for you? So you can not vote for me again? That's kind of like calling your mother a bitch then asking her to give you $100 and then being shocked when she says no.
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TKJunkMail @ 17th Jun 07:18PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by KrK :said by TKJunkMail :
This bill is populist nonsense by a Congressman peeved at TWC and their metered billing plans.
And that's bad because....?
Yeah, we know it's not likely to succeed... but it's worth it to at least try.
You can just see Massa playing the part of LambChop to Free Press' Shari Lewis. I am sure they wrote this part of Massa's statement for him:
"Cable providers want to stifle the internet so they can rake in advertiser dollars by keeping consumers from watching video on the Internet. But so long as Americans can't choose which cable channels they want to pay for, I don't think cable operators should be able to determine consumers' monthly internet usage. Additionally, charging based on a bandwidth usage is a flawed model when the cost of usage is totally out of line with the price. Consumers are much better served by plans based on the speed of the connection rather than amount of bandwidth used
Massa the Sock Puppet.
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en102 @ 17th Jun 07:20PM:
Re: Botched analogy
Based on the statement from AT&T, that's what you would expect.
Personally - I know it would not go down, and the only way it will stay decent is through bundling of services.
AT&T already does some of this:
Uverse 'higher' TV packages come with higher speed Internet as the default.
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Bit @ 17th Jun 07:23PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
They will be if this bill passes.
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Bit @ 17th Jun 07:23PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
As opposed to TK, the corporate puppet.
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KrK @ 17th Jun 07:30PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
Massa the Sock Puppet.
Yeah, but it's a cute and fuzzy Sock Puppet!
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tdouglas22 @ 17th Jun 07:36PM:
Now is NOT the time to be negative..
This is a great example of what can accomplished when enough people stand up and speak out against things like this. We don't need to look at this being a waste of time... this is something that needs to be done and we need to all do our part as well. We need to send letters (real letters work better than email) and let our representatives know that we want this to go through and why. Grass roots baby.... I love it!
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TKJunkMail @ 17th Jun 07:53PM:
More bad news for the bill
Neither Massa nor the 2 cosponsors are on the Energy and Commerce Committee that will decide whether this bill moves out of committee.
[att=1]
And that Committee has a lot of members friendly to the cable & telco industries.
»energycommerce.house.gov/index.p···temid=61
And the subcommittee likely to get this:
»energycommerce.house.gov/index.p···temid=61
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Eat Me @ 17th Jun 07:53PM:
Re: 2 million or more subscribers?
said by BF69 :said by Eat Me :
Once again, the democrats only care about people living in large urban areas.
PenTeleData will continue to screw us out with their low caps and lack of competition out here. :(
If you people in the boonies actually voted for them maybe they'd care more. Personaly if you don't like me why in the hell should I do anything for you? So you can not vote for me again? That's kind of like calling your mother a bitch then asking her to give you $100 and then being shocked when she says no.
That's the whole problem with politics today. Elected officials only care about getting re-elected and taking care of their supporters instead of formulating sound public policy.
As an elected official you've been entrusted to formulate public policy that affects an entire state or the whole country, not just a few people.
Telling one set of people to screw themselves while doing favors for another is called discrimination.
Furthermore, even if we vote for these liberal losers, they will still screw us over.
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Bit @ 17th Jun 07:54PM:
Re: More bad news for the bill
Best government corporations can buy.
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POKE 65495,1
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Randypinball @ 17th Jun 08:02PM:
I left Time Warner due to...
I was with Time Warner Roadrunner since 1999 when it became available in the San Fernando Valley North End.. I loved the service, had very little trouble. Then I hear Leo Laporte talk about how Time Warner wants to put caps on our bandwidth per month I immediatly called a few ISP's and found DSLextreme, im happy with it, im happy with the consistancy and the price and the fact that I don't feel disgusted when im using dslextreme as i was with time warner after hearing about what they were "thinking" of doing. I love dsl, yeah its slower, but heres the deal, it seems more consistant with throughput on downloads , torrents etc... unlike with roadrunner, where it was sooo slow yet I had 20-30 mbps, im downloading faster with 6mbps dsl than 20-27mbps cable, imagine that....P.s. the bandwidth caps would have affected me because I stream alot of video, classic tv, movies, public domain on justin.tv and others, so i do use alot of upload/down per month... ..
Just my input..
Randy
CHatsworth, Ca
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WhatNow @ 17th Jun 08:11PM:
Low useage user
I installed NetMeter and have found I only use around 10GB a month with TW so why should I have to pay for some one using 200GB or much more every month. If the 5, 10, 15 % are generating 50% of the usage demand on an ISP network why should they not pay more. The network usage has changed. In the past most people could not afford a computer nic card that would handle 200+ GB per month now it is common place. There were not the video content providers such as Netflix that are getting a free ride except what they pay their ISP to connect. If networks were so cheap and easy to build then why don't more companies build a network.
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en102 @ 17th Jun 08:26PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
AT&T just spent a lot of time attempting to get away from regulations (Telco TV) , looks like they'll be back in it.
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Canada = Hollywood North
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sonicmerlin @ 17th Jun 09:20PM:
Re: Unlimted Broadband
They have that in Asia already. Been around for years. In a few years Japan and South Korea will be speeding away at 1Gbps.
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sonicmerlin @ 17th Jun 09:22PM:
Re: Unlimted Broadband
I'm objecting to metered prices. They don't make sense. Bandwidth isn't a limited commodity. The main costs of a network are fixed, based on the amount the ISP spends to lay down the initial pipes.
In other words, Grandma doesn't cost the ISP any more than teenager.
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Jafo232 @ 17th Jun 09:23PM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by baineschile :
There is a difference between metering and caps.
No law should tell an ISP how to manage their network. As long as the cap is fair, it should be enforced.
As far as I remember, there are laws against monopolies too, and as far as broadband goes, much of the country suffers from only one option. Monopolies are easily regulated by the Government. I agree with you otherwise.
--
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sonicmerlin @ 17th Jun 09:25PM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
Will the bill force ISPs to make public the amount their network actually costs them per user or per megabyte (or megabit)? I really would love to know that information.
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sonicmerlin @ 17th Jun 09:27PM:
Re: Low useage user
Because super-large companies have economy of scale on their side to bring down prices enormously. Besides, they've already paid for the network they laid down years ago. The cost to them is simply based on maintaining and upgrading the network, which is minimal (especially since they spend so little to upgrade it).
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Bit @ 17th Jun 09:38PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
It's nothing that a few hundred G's in bribes contributions can't fix.
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cornelius785 @ 17th Jun 09:43PM:
usage model better allow for growth
the only reason i could see the need for a usage based pricing scheme is if the network, somewhere, is insufficient to handle the data being forced through. i'd expect that the network is being upgraded to make it handle that data.
so what i want to see in any 'approved' usage based modeling is some combination of the cap growing and the price/byte drop at a predefined rate.
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DadCooks @ 17th Jun 09:49PM:
Laughable
This proposed bill has more loopholes than a swiss cheese. This is another example of our legislators trying to look like they are doing something for us, when in reality we get the shaft again. You can be assured that the title of the bill sounds good, but it has no teeth.
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hhawkman @ 17th Jun 09:49PM:
Re: Low useage user
said by WhatNow :
I installed NetMeter and have found I only use around 10GB a month with TW so why should I have to pay for some one using 200GB or much more every month.
Who said YOU are paying for someone else? You are paying for your own use, Period.
The other person using 200GB or more is paying for THEIR use. They are just getting more value for their buck then you are.
It doesn't affect YOU one way or the other what THEY do. You will STILL be paying the same monthly.
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Dampier @ 17th Jun 10:50PM:
Re: Low useage user
Your first assumption is that because you consume just 10GB per month, your bill will somehow increase because of heavy users. When ISPs raise rates, they tend to raise them for everyone. In Canada, where service is capped and throttled, one company increased rates across the board. TWC has traditionally done the same thing in some divisions, especially for those who don't also have a cable TV bundle.
Time Warner Cable's proposal for our community claimed it would save light users money, but their first proposal provided a tiny bandwidth allowance of just 1GB per month, each additional gigabyte was $2. That didn't include the monthly service charge either.
The question you should really be asking yourself is why the company making $4 BILLION dollars in revenue last year, while spending just $146 million to support their network needs to raise rates for anyone, much less take away the current pricing model.
In the last conference call reporting quarterly financial results, company officials admitted many heavy users already pay more than their fair share with Road Runner Turbo, which is quick extra $10 a month in their pocket. What tier of service eats into their results more? The Lite tier for users just like yourself who consume less and want to pay less. Upgrading their network to deliver faster speeds for those who want to pay premium prices for them will generate even more revenue for the company.
Why should any content provider have to also pay a broadband network to transport their content? They are not their customers. When you receive a long distance phone call, why aren't you paying to receive that call? Because the person making it paid their long distance carrier to handle the call.
It's precisely content like video that drives 11% growth in new customers for Time Warner Cable's broadband product last year. Those customers already pay TWC for that content to be transported.
Remember, TWC is also the same company behind TV Everywhere, which seeks to deliver dozens and dozens of cable network programs over broadband, on demand, to authenticated cable TV subscribers.
In other words, they are complaining about broadband video using too much bandwidth so they are resolving to... deliver even more video content over that network!
Yes, broadband is changing. It's becoming cheaper to provide and easier to expand, if companies seek to make the investments to keep their networks in good shape. Verizon FiOS is doing that, so is Cablevision, all without caps.
Broadband networks are a duopoly in most communities. One cable and one phone company. The reason you don't often see more is that private investors, accustomed to a certain return on their investment based on the duopoly market conditions, feel that a third or fourth competitor will create too much price competition and dilute returns, discouraging them from investing in the first place. Providers also confront pole attachment fees, local franchise requirements, infrastructure installation, etc.
There are tons of transport networks that don't get wired out to individual homes, and competition there is robust.
We're getting to the point where construction of a nationwide fiber to the home network is beginning to make sense, where companies who wish to compete for your business can co-exist on that network platform and let them compete.
Until something like that is possible, it's important to protect consumers from abusive pricing in markets where competition is limited. Otherwise we're destined to repeat Canada's mistakes, where the exact same arguments were made, and the end result was that you would have paid more, I would have paid more, everyone would pay more for either the same speed (or incrementally better) than we had before, except now you also pay overlimit fees and find certain applications are being throttled. Canada finds itself just ahead of Mexico now in broadband pricing value.
What countries have the fastest and cheapest bandwidth with the fewest restrictions? Korea and Japan, where it's not about your usage vs. someone else's. It's about constructing and maintaining a high quality, scalable broadband infrastructure that can meet everyone's needs at a reasonable price.
Why aren't we the world leader on this?
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chimera @ 17th Jun 11:52PM:
Re: Unlimted Broadband
Yes, but the amount of traffic a single line can handle is fixed until they pay to lay down more fiber, also maintaining more fiber does end up costing more money so in theory a metered cost makes sense. Adding the cost to the current model doesn't because of the sheer amount of excess profits already involved, but in a perfect world metering cost during peak hours would be a logical way to ensure that ISPs could deliver full speed to all users at all times.
That isn't the goal of the current metering efforts, so I do oppose them, but it's important to understand that in some alternate reality where we weren't already being fleeced that metered billing could be fair. We just don't live in that reality.
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hottboiinnc @ 17th Jun 11:54PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
Very true. And the FCC ruled and the Courts that The Internet is NOT a utility. It is an Information Source and which CAN NOT be regulated.
Also this guy only speaks of the Cable Companies, NOTHING about the telco's. Sounds like ATT and VZ toss him some money.
Another asshole that likes to see his name in the paper and wants to be sued.
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hottboiinnc @ 17th Jun 11:56PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
TK is right. The law will never pass.
Also the Doctor's should be using a residential plan for Internet. They are required under BOTH TWC and RR TOS/AUPs to have business class internet which is UNLIMITED.
They should be paying extra to start off with.
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BBBanditRuR @ 17th Jun 11:58PM:
This report...
...highlights the things I've tried telling others about the "Nickel & Diming" of Internet video users. Those that "claim" the carriers are doing all they can to meet capacity are incorrect. I hope this is a step towards correcting the thinking that consumers are just cows to be flogged and beaten for all the money, without a blink of common sense or legislation. Legislation, which apparently is the only way to get some of these companies to adhere.
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hottboiinnc @ 17th Jun 11:59PM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
FCC does not have control over pricing of a data service. The Internet is NOT a communications service. it is DATA the FCC already ruled on that before with the courts.
You should know that though. And just because their network is sitting on the "right of way" makes it anything to the public. TWC pays a LEASE of the Right of Way rights to have access there. Any city, county or state can take that away. Would they? chances are NO because they don't 1, want a law suit they can't take on, and 2, chances are they can't get anyone to rebuild the network after TWC would pull the entire thing down.
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hottboiinnc @ 18th Jun 12:05AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
Instead of trying to get laws passed and your name in the papers, why not go out and start building your own wireless ISP? And while you're trying to get laws passed against TWC and RR just keep in mind they are two different companies. One is the Cable Operator, and one is the ISP. One is in VA and one is in NY. And make sure you add ATT to that law and add VZW and ATT Wireless and Sprint/Nextel.
I want an iPhone with unlimited 3G for $15 per month because that's a fair price.
And would you rather keep your phone service or let the lines rot with VZ. You can't have your cake and eat it to.. Get a life and stop bitching about it. At least you can get DSL and RR.
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hottboiinnc @ 18th Jun 12:07AM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
And what happens if they end up pulling your POTS line and moving you to FTTH? You're screwed and go to ATT withOUT the option of DSLX. Sucks to use a reseller huh?
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uid1307457 @ 18th Jun 12:25AM:
Re: Politician For The People
said by BigMac777 :
Finally a politician stepping up and doing the right thing for the people.
he prob wants to be reelected
--
Political blame gamers and religious fanatics piss me off.
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whfsdude @ 18th Jun 12:55AM:
Re: Botched analogy
said by en102 :
The 'caps' on grandma's usage would be a paltry 5GB - not even enough to download typical service pack upgrades without overages.
This isn't a bill to all out ban metered based billing. It allows the FCC and the public to regulate price gouging so grandma doesn't get ripped off.
The issue with caps is Internet transit isn't actually billed for * gigabytes/month.
The most common billing method is 95% percentile. Traffic is billed on how much bandwidth is used with their peers (assuming it's paid peering). The top 5% of traffic is dropped.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burstable_billing
So if Grandma uses all her bandwidth (50 mbits) during peak usage all at once she would cost the ISP more than some guy who uses it at 3 mbits (24/7).
So metered billing is a somewhat made up price point. Who regulates that? ISPs like Comcast and TWC claim it's due to last mile costs but what are those costs?
This stops ISPs from just simply saying we're going to make up a fake price model which it appears TWC did.
Comcast's cap might seem reasonable but then again, they're selling wholesale transit on their for under $4/mbit.
You just can't let these ISPs make up transit costs, in an monopolistic/duopolistic market place. Hence the oversight.
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dvd536 @ 18th Jun 01:39AM:
Total BS
they want metered BW AND the full $40/mo!
how about $10 service fee PLUS usage!
damned CORPORATE GREED MACHINES!
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee
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ross @ 18th Jun 02:57AM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
That is a problem with AT&T, not the reseller. It is for just such predatory practices AT&T ought to be SMACKED down. And, by that, I mean totally run out of the business by any means necessary. AT&T is the biggest impediment to advancing technology and provision of competitive services in the U.S., bar none. Well, except for, perhaps, the entertainment industry.
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anon @ 18th Jun 08:09AM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by robl27 :
This bullshit will not work, too many poor people who can not afford it. Unless we have little sheep out there, I think the people will speak with their wallets as already one person did. In the B Texas area did.
-Rob
You can't really speak with your wallet when all the ISPs have the same limits, which is what they want.
It seems we are headed back to the day's of dialup AOL and Compuserve. Some of you may remember the days before the public Internet, when you had to pay based on the time you were on the service and you had limited content. That's were we are headed.
-Shane
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jimbo2150 @ 18th Jun 06:30AM:
Re: Botched analogy
said by BF69 :
In 5 years when they are "high useage" customers they'll regret being for metered billing and caps.
Thats the whole issue. 10 years ago my usage was considered extreme. Now it is not. But companies today seem to want to keep the usage amounts today the same in 10 years and charge the same or more (so a 100% markup today would equate to a 5000% in 10 years). In 10 years bandwidth will probably be like $0.0004 per GB (or less). The whole issue is that ISPs are both trying to charge more today and want to keep that high price even as cost to deliver drops.
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- "Techie" Jim
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tmc8080 @ 18th Jun 06:31AM:
Re: Botched analogy
said by Gbcue :said by en102 :
AT&T of Santa Clarita, AT&T of San Fernando Valley, AT&T of Burbank....
Now they're all separate entities with independent pricing structures and speed tiers.
Now you've got a jumble of 1,000,000 different AT&T ISPs confusing the consumer.
That wouldn't work.. they'd still be under ONE company rooftop... because the franchise and rights of way purchased from other company assets to a large corporation (merged). Just as a company who has physical structure (aka presence) in a state must collect sales tax for goods and services (unless specifically prohibited, or exepmted).
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BF69 @ 18th Jun 06:39AM:
Re: 2 million or more subscribers?
said by Eat Me :said by BF69 :said by Eat Me :
Once again, the democrats only care about people living in large urban areas.
PenTeleData will continue to screw us out with their low caps and lack of competition out here. :(
If you people in the boonies actually voted for them maybe they'd care more. Personaly if you don't like me why in the hell should I do anything for you? So you can not vote for me again? That's kind of like calling your mother a bitch then asking her to give you $100 and then being shocked when she says no.
That's the whole problem with politics today. Elected officials only care about getting re-elected and taking care of their supporters instead of formulating sound public policy.
what is "unsound" about this? Nothing.
As an elected official you've been entrusted to formulate public policy that affects an entire state or the whole country, not just a few people.
Telling one set of people to screw themselves while doing favors for another is called discrimination.
If I asked you for $5 and you told me to fuck off don't expect me to help you when you ask me for $5. I'm not sure what is so hard ot get about that? You want to treat people like shit then expect them to kiss your ass.
Furthermore, even if we vote for these liberal losers, they will still screw us over.
yes like the GOP has done wonders for you. You do realize republcians controlled Congress for 12 years from 1995-2006 adn the republicans controled the White House for 8 from 2001-2008. You had 6 years of complete republican controll. exactly what did it get us?
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tmc8080 @ 18th Jun 06:53AM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
said by ross :
That is a problem with AT&T, not the reseller. It is for just such predatory practices AT&T ought to be SMACKED down. And, by that, I mean totally run out of the business by any means necessary. AT&T is the biggest impediment to advancing technology and provision of competitive services in the U.S., bar none. Well, except for, perhaps, the entertainment industry.
AT&T has the unenviable task of picking up the bad behavior where MCI-Worldcom left off, except they were literally pushed, tempted to acquire last mile assets as a result of the long distance calling wars. AT&T is in new territory having to compete against Comcast in much of it's bought, inherited footprint. Now that Verizon jumped first to jettison bad ROI's, they just made a poison pill for AT&T to do the same, or cable-cos for that matter. Instead the answer becomes metered billing.
In a world where (using that famous movie voice) companies are free to charge whatever they want, they are free to manipulate markets to their will. The tech industry has had it's share of gouging and poor consumer relations... Microsoft, Intel, and Memory Makers (remember RamBus memory), or how about Sony's Blue Ray? We've not even seen a proposal for a *reasonable* capped plan.. such as 250gb+ monthly cap for 50% off the unlimited rates. If plans were designed for lite users as they said it would not be a forced down the entire footprint/subscribership's throat kind of deal as Comcast & possibly Time Warner were considering. We've let these companies dig, burrow, and tear up our public & private property to deploy their network & we have a vested interest in seeing FAIR access for all consumers at affordable rates & terms of service. If it should come to legislation, so be it...
no doubt the cablecos will want their say too & try to add a provision to add wireless broadband to the mix so we don't see $5k broadband access bills in the news, which in reality shouldn't be.. there should be a reasonable overage such as doubling your monthly rate before the service is cut & the customer has to call to understand they they're going over by a wide margin before the bill cranks up like an A/C on a 120 degree day.
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rcabor @ 18th Jun 07:35AM:
Re: Unlimted Broadband
And with metered billing, they get the money to lay down more fiber, but dont need it cause people are using it less because the overages are outrageous!
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rcabor @ 18th Jun 07:40AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
And if we allowed gas stations to charge $20 a gallon when its $30 a barrel, we could just build our own wells and make our own gasoline.......And instead of making sure Microsoft is not engaged in monopolistic practices we should just write our own software.....
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anon @ 18th Jun 08:09AM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
if the company that i get my internet from, start charging me that kind of money i will drop them so fast, so we will see who get what , i don't need internet to live but they need you to survived
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TKJunkMail @ 18th Jun 07:47AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
said by Dampier :
This bill is not perfect and there are issues we are working on behind the scenes to address some of the more vague language and the enforcement mechanisms, which rely too much on agencies that don't always run with the ball.
And you think that making a bill that already leans too far to the regulatory side of the pendulum even more so is an improvement?
I agree with hottboiinc that your group's efforts could be put to better use by starting up your own ISP and providing the competition you seek instead of pushing for even MORE regulation by government drones. That USED TO BE the American way. Now the American Way seems to be loud whining and demanding the gov't take care of me.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 18th Jun 08:36AM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by baineschile :
There is a difference between metering and caps.
No law should tell an ISP how to manage their network. As long as the cap is fair, it should be enforced.
I'll bet any amount of money that you would be singing a different tune if your ISP just put a 5GB cap on your connection. Look past your own situation - providers just don't want to provide a fair pricing model, they basically want to make the internet less appealing for high-bandwidth applications such as video. Comcast has been generous, but they already had a "hidden cap" - but you know a company like Time Warner if given the chance to implement caps would just decrease them yearly..."because of tough economic times your new cap is 20GB...10GB...5GB....1KB". Is that the kind of power that you want ISPs to have? I sure don't.
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anon @ 18th Jun 08:49AM:
Re: Excellent.....
I don't see how its legal. You spend billions on setting up your network, you maintain it, you figure out the prices, no wait we'll figure out the prices and how you can sell it.
Uhh no. I guarantee that can't be what the founding father's had in mind.
If the company cuts its own throat, let it. Consumers need to learn to Vote with their dollars and get over the idea that these are necessities. Food, water, shelter, still the only REAL necessities for life. Internet, fast internet, non metered internet somehow fall very short of that list. I'm actually a little pissed that of all the things that needs the house's attention these days they felt the necessity to waste time on this....
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pnh102 @ 18th Jun 09:03AM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by TKJunkMail :
LOL. Right - $100 more per month for internet access would cause doctors to raise their patient charges. Who is he kidding. Like they need an excuse to do that anyway.
Of course doctors would raise patient charges if their own costs went up. All overhead is passed down to the consumer in the form of higher prices.
I think Time Warner made a huge mistake with their capping plans... they got the attention of Congress. While this bill might not pass, it will encourage more Congressional investigations into the broadband industry. This is rarely a good thing for consumers and providers alike.
Time Warner could have implemented caps in a manner similar to Comcast, i.e. a very high cap with throttling but no overages. This way, they could make the argument that caps simply are not about the money but are rather about network management.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!
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DJMASACRE @ 18th Jun 09:28AM:
poop
first of all, there should never be caps, or if there is always offer unlimited plans for those groups who buy internet for downloading obsessions .
"The Free Press Solution advocates for a radical and unprecedented government mandate that will demand that consumers have only one all-you-can-eat pricing model for Internet services," says the carrier. "Free Press prefers that grandma - who simply wants to download their grandchildren's online photos a few times a month - to pay for the heavy-using teenager who is downloading HD movies."
that made no sense at all. you pay for your packaged service period. if Grandma pays for her 3meg plan at 10$, shes not paying the heavy-using teenagers plan of 5meg at 30$.
you pay for your own service, and you receive that service.
i love when these companies have no excuse for what they do and try to make up stuff that makes no sense at all.
then again, youll get those people who say ¨well that make sense ... so then all those pirate people will stop hogging up all the internet for the rest of us ¨.. give me a break
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Jafo232 @ 18th Jun 09:41AM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by k1ll3rdr4g0n :
I'll bet any amount of money that you would be singing a different tune if your ISP just put a 5GB cap on your connection. Look past your own situation - providers just don't want to provide a fair pricing model, they basically want to make the internet less appealing for high-bandwidth applications such as video. Comcast has been generous, but they already had a "hidden cap" - but you know a company like Time Warner if given the chance to implement caps would just decrease them yearly..."because of tough economic times your new cap is 20GB...10GB...5GB....1KB". Is that the kind of power that you want ISPs to have? I sure don't.
If there is competition, then sooner or later, one is going to offer a better cap than the other, until eventually it is unlimited. The same thing happened in the 90's. I remember when dialup was metered until eventually "unlimited access" became the popular keyphrase.
With a monopoly there is no competition, and that is when more regulation is necessary.
Now if collusion is found between two competitors to shaft the consumer, well there are already laws against that.
Somehow though I am starting to feel that there is a movement out there that many seem to think there is some unalienable right to unlimited access, which I disagree with.
--
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bn1221 @ 18th Jun 09:44AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
Frontier has 10 mbit DSL in areas of Rochester and they have business plans which (supposedly) were never capped.
If they are research doctors I would guess they could afford a business class DSL or Time Warner line.
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Skippy25 @ 18th Jun 10:05AM:
Re: Excellent.....
You are so wrong on so many levels it is almost a waste to even try to correct you.
Ignoring the fact that this entire industry is either in a Monopoly or Duopoly state in a vast majority of this country because of the barriers of entry, the below holds true
WE, the consumers and tax payers, have spent billions on building their networks. These companies haven't spent a dime they haven't received from us or the government to begin with.
WE, the consumers, pay higher prices than we should because of a lack of competition.
WE, the tax payer, contribute to everyone of these networks whether we subscribe to them or not simply because of the "incentives" they are granted to provide services that we are then over charged for if we actually are a consumer.
And you are right, the founding father's would have never allowed the government to cater to corporations like they do now and would have never allowed the corruption state of this government to become what it is. They had morals and good intent for others. Today's government is all about "me".
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Skippy25 @ 18th Jun 10:22AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
Mainly because wireless is crap and will never compete with hardline bandwidth and thus will never truly bring competition to any community beyond those very basic users.
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Bit @ 18th Jun 10:23AM:
Re: Sensible regulation
But Congress can redefine that. The court just interpreted the TA1996 to mean that the internet portion of the service is data and not regulated like video. But Congress can clarify their intent and if not a violation of the Constitution it would be enforceable.
This bill if passed in to law would be enforceable.
--
POKE 65495,1
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Skippy25 @ 18th Jun 10:32AM:
Re: Low useage user
said by Dampier :
We're getting to the point where construction of a nationwide fiber to the home network is beginning to make sense, where companies who wish to compete for your business can co-exist on that network platform and let them compete.
I have been making this claim for a long time. One network nationwide that any business can use to reach any user that wants to obtain their service.
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Musclebrain @ 18th Jun 10:33AM:
If metered billing and caps happen, piracy expands.
The hardware is out there. If big business tries to throttle the bandwidth, I forsee people banding together to set up localized resource pools using intranet models. Think wirelessly networked neighborhoods, firewalled from the internet but still connected. The host system delegates every member of the pool to download certain high bandwidth content that is then uplinked back to the host server for distribution. Every member of the network contributes some data to the host. The host then allows all members to download anything they want from that data-pool. They can't regulate the bandwidth of peer to peer connections on your side of the firewall, they can't even see the activity. Perhaps the only computer that is not connected directly to the internet is the actual host server of the neighborhood intranet system.
Such a response would actually piss a lot of rich and powerful people off, as they can't be sure anyone is seeing their advertisements, they can't tell who is watching their content, and all the statistics and numbers they collect are skewed by the fact that they can't see what is going on on the other side of all those firewalled intranets. Everyone in such an intranet scheme is beneath their bandwidth cap and pays the minimum bill, because the network host determines which computers on the intranet will connect to the internet to download high bandwidth content for redistribution. So now, the icing on the cake is, usage statistics go down, income they were counting on from high bandwidth users vanishes. Response: They'll want to license and monitor the intranets, and they'll lobby to make networking products collect statistics and report them, and should those products not be in constant communication with Big Brother, they will stop working.
These people want to control the internet. They think they have the power to do so, but the internet is a form of anarchy. The harder they squeeze it, the more they will lose control over it. Eventually they will make it such a hassle to use, that we'll just pull the plug on TV, the internet, and all their crap, and we'll rediscover the joys of painting, travelling, throwing parties, bar-hopping or whatever, anything that doesn't involve the greedy data-Nazi's that want to delegate our entertainment, our rights and our lives.
My message to them: Wake up and smell the coffee. Change your business model. Give the people what they want, give it to them for free. Make your money off the advertising you stream in your content. It worked for network television, it can work again. Pandora's box has been opened and you can't stuff the demons back inside, so work with what is there.
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jadebangle @ 18th Jun 11:21AM:
Re: Total BS
said by dvd536 :
they want metered BW AND the full $40/mo!
how about $10 service fee PLUS usage!
damned CORPORATE GREED MACHINES!
9.99 plus 5 cent per gb or no fee but 10 cent per gb
if they really care about low usage subscriber but the truth is that greed is why they are imposing caps whether many like it or not
don't like our term of service?
cancel or go back to dialup
ITS PURE EVIL
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funchords @ 18th Jun 11:42AM:
Re: This bill will never make it thru Congress
said by pnh102 :
Time Warner could have implemented caps in a manner similar to Comcast, i.e. a very high cap with throttling but no overages. This way, they could make the argument that caps simply are not about the money but are rather about network management.
Except their goal was all about the money, so doing what you suggest wouldn't help them at all.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
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anon @ 18th Jun 01:08PM:
Re: 2 million or more subscribers?
said by BF69 :
Personally if you don't like me why in the hell should I do anything for you?
Because it's your job (as a representative). You serve your constituents, whether they like you or not, whether you like them or not. If I decide to stop providing service to people I dislike or those who dislike me, my company will fire me. Why should it be any different for *our* employees-representatives in the government?
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RJ44 @ 18th Jun 01:36PM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by S_engineer :
This law as its written has components that look like laws that govern utlilities.
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I can't think of any utility that DOESN'T have metered billing.
Let's see...electric, water, gas, check. What else?
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jp10558 @ 18th Jun 01:54PM:
Re: Excellent.....
Well, yes, but NYSEG isn't saying $50 a month for the line and up to 100KWh included, then $5/KWh over ... It's more like $10 for the hook up and some smallish amount $0.20 per KWh from the start IIRC...
I think the general consensus is that caps are a horrible idea, but a reasonable line fee (say like the line fee for your phone... $7/month in rural NY) and then a reasonable per GB charge ($0.25??) would be ok.
But the carriers want it both ways... Grandma pays $50 for internet and her 5GB, heavy user pays $50 + $2 per GB over... And the overage charge is just crazy high in relation to the cost of transfer, which as the article notes keeps going down...
And this would also allow night rate pricing which might actually help congestion when of course caps *don't*.
And the really huge downloaders would actually pay more for more use while the really light users would save money. But that would be fair rather than just sneakily raising rates for everyone.
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jp10558 @ 18th Jun 02:00PM:
Re: Excellent.....
Oh, I'm a strong supporter of flat rate, no cap. But yes, I think again we in the US mostly get the worst of both worlds.
We either need the government regulated utility style, hopefully done up like NYSEG does with the utility owning the lines and charging a reasonable and set rate for maintaining them, and you buying internet access from any electricity vendor you like at their plan / rate / deal...
Or, we need to open up and let many more companies run lines, put up WISP towers, run cable whatever...
I prefer the first as I think it really is working well for NYers in that you can get better rates on electricity now but there aren't 500 different sets of power lines running by.
I suppose we could use the PUC etc to regulate the existing vendors, but I think it would be better to just open up the lines like we did for local and LD phone service so everyone who cares to compete can link in at the CO or whatever...
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ross @ 18th Jun 05:13PM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
said by tmc8080 :said by ross :
That is a problem with AT&T, not the reseller. It is for just such predatory practices AT&T ought to be SMACKED down. And, by that, I mean totally run out of the business by any means necessary. AT&T is the biggest impediment to advancing technology and provision of competitive services in the U.S., bar none. Well, except for, perhaps, the entertainment industry.
AT&T has the unenviable task of picking up the bad behavior where MCI-Worldcom left off, except they were literally pushed, tempted to acquire last mile assets as a result of the long distance calling wars. AT&T is in new territory having to compete against Comcast in much of it's bought, inherited footprint. Now that Verizon jumped first to jettison bad ROI's, they just made a poison pill for AT&T to do the same, or cable-cos for that matter. Instead the answer becomes metered billing.
In a world where (using that famous movie voice) companies are free to charge whatever they want, they are free to manipulate markets to their will. The tech industry has had it's share of gouging and poor consumer relations... Microsoft, Intel, and Memory Makers (remember RamBus memory), or how about Sony's Blue Ray? We've not even seen a proposal for a *reasonable* capped plan.. such as 250gb+ monthly cap for 50% off the unlimited rates. If plans were designed for lite users as they said it would not be a forced down the entire footprint/subscribership's throat kind of deal as Comcast & possibly Time Warner were considering. We've let these companies dig, burrow, and tear up our public & private property to deploy their network & we have a vested interest in seeing FAIR access for all consumers at affordable rates & terms of service. If it should come to legislation, so be it...
no doubt the cablecos will want their say too & try to add a provision to add wireless broadband to the mix so we don't see $5k broadband access bills in the news, which in reality shouldn't be.. there should be a reasonable overage such as doubling your monthly rate before the service is cut & the customer has to call to understand they they're going over by a wide margin before the bill cranks up like an A/C on a 120 degree day.
Hard to decipher your point, presuming you even had one. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR OVERAGE CHARGES, WHATSOEVER! THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR METERED BILLING, PERIOD!
AT&T, TWC are prime examples of unbridled, unregulated predacious greed machines hellbent on providing the least amount of service for the most egregious price. These companies are intent on not investing in upgrades to their infrastructure for anything except privacy invasive devices to facilitate the commoditizing and monetizing the personal information, habits and preferences of their captive customer base, or to supply an ever more paranoid governmental and law enforcement community with unwarranted access to private communications, as well as monetizing the delivery of content provided by themselves and/or others.
No consideration of reasonable rate of return, or falling cost of delivery of service is evident in their pricing structure. Pricing is solely based on what contrived obfuscation and a captive/forced market can extort from powerless customers. Their repudiation and rejection of the principles of good faith and fair dealing, and the evisceration of customer's rights is loathsomely self-evident and emblematic of their corporate philosophy.
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k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 18th Jun 08:44PM:
Re: Excellent.....
said by Jafo232 :said by k1ll3rdr4g0n :
I'll bet any amount of money that you would be singing a different tune if your ISP just put a 5GB cap on your connection. Look past your own situation - providers just don't want to provide a fair pricing model, they basically want to make the internet less appealing for high-bandwidth applications such as video. Comcast has been generous, but they already had a "hidden cap" - but you know a company like Time Warner if given the chance to implement caps would just decrease them yearly..."because of tough economic times your new cap is 20GB...10GB...5GB....1KB". Is that the kind of power that you want ISPs to have? I sure don't.
If there is competition, then sooner or later, one is going to offer a better cap than the other, until eventually it is unlimited. The same thing happened in the 90's. I remember when dialup was metered until eventually "unlimited access" became the popular keyphrase.
With a monopoly there is no competition, and that is when more regulation is necessary.
Now if collusion is found between two competitors to shaft the consumer, well there are already laws against that.
Somehow though I am starting to feel that there is a movement out there that many seem to think there is some unalienable right to unlimited access, which I disagree with.
ISPs have monopolies in many areas which is why regulation is required. In my area for example I can either goto AT&T for DSL (which the slots are probably filled up) or Comcast. Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me considering my choice will probably HAVE to be Comcast.
Perhaps you are right and it is just a matter of time before ISPs overlap and compete, but dial-up was a good competing business because your neighborhood didn't have to wired for it. All you needed was dial tone and you could use dial-up internet. Plus, the fact that phone companies had to line share which made dial-up the perfect free-enterprise business because all businesses were competing for your dollar. Today's ISPs? Not so much. Don't like Comcast? Then you don't get HSI, simple as that...
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SuperWISP @ 19th Jun 01:16AM:
Exceedingly anti-business
Massa's bill says:
Volume usage charges for broadband Internet access that are substantially above cost in a market without sufficient competition constitute an unfair and unconscionable practice...
In other words, if a provider brings high speed Internet to an area where this Congressman views competition as not being "sufficient" (note that this is vague and ignores the fact that satellite and cellular Internet are pretty much ubiquitous; guess they don't count), and makes a profit on it (i.e. charges any price per bit that's substantially above cost), it's evil.
Heaven forbid that a business should make money.
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anon @ 19th Jun 01:44AM:
and then
the way I see it is that we "the consumer" will get screwed regardless of capped or uncapped as long as there is only 1 or 2 options to choose from.. There simply needs to be a higher implementation of alternative broadband sources other then Cable & DSL here.. Look at what folks are getting all over Eu for so much less then us.. But they have also implemented other technologies (like the powerline stuff). I have had alot of interactions with fiends across the pond & it amazes me that for over 100 bucks a month I Can get a 20mb download & a whopping 896k up.. Where for 15 euro's they are getting speeds that dwarf that both up & Down..
The person who used the dial up analogy had it right.. Give us options & let us choose.. When someone is doing it wrong they loose business till they do it right.. end of story..
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anon @ 19th Jun 05:43AM:
...paved with good intentions.
So long as ISPs have oversold their real bandwidth about 50 times over, this is unfortunately a bad idea.
Satellite and cellular "broadband Internet access" are so dirty that to call them competition is just stupid. They're a poor substitute for TRUE broadband internet access without filtered access, harsh restrictions, permanent firewall, low monthly bandwidth limits, high overage charges, and long locked-in contracts. If anything, they're probably the best examples for why fair access laws are needed!
Turning internet access into a utility monopoly won't help. Any government-decided minimum standards is about all we can expect to get from that!
New competition that's not litigated to death just for existing is a much-needed part of a long-term solution.
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hottboiinnc @ 19th Jun 11:28AM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
No it would not be a problem for ATT they're given the right to kill those resellers when and if they deploy a next generation network in any area. If U-Verse DSL or U-Verse FTTH is available to home and only those you can NOT get a reseller to get the higher speeds. Those speeds are only available from ATT directly. If you live in the FTTH areas resellers are a thing of the past.
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hottboiinnc @ 19th Jun 11:30AM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
and you have proof that wireless is crap? WiMax is out preforming U-Verse. It is expandable fast, easy and cheaper.
There is no hard network. No ROI, nothing. And if it was such crap then why is ATT building out Wireless networks for?
And as far as MSFT, yah you should write your own software, people already do, its called Open Source. Ever hear of it?
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Skippy25 @ 19th Jun 12:41PM:
Re: Phillip Replies....
said by hottboiinnc :
There is no hard network. No ROI, nothing. And if it was such crap then why is ATT building out Wireless networks for?
Really? I guess if you are going to ask a stupid question you need a stupid answer so here it is.....
Because plugging your devices into an ever expanding cable and then traveling with them causes all kinds of knots and kinks in the line.
Here's your sign!
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anon @ 19th Jun 01:11PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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anon @ 19th Jun 03:54PM:
Re: Excellent.....
What you're overlooking is the fact that comparisons to utilities like electric, water and gas are inappropriate. Data is not a limited natural resource.
A better comparison would be to roads or copper telephone service. The cost is in building and maintaining the road, or installing and maintaining a telephone line to your home. Whether you drive on the road or not, or use the phone or not, the cost is still there. Now business models such as toll roads or per-call charges are ways of recouping the fixed costs (as would be a flat-rate monthly bill or tax), but are not in anyway related to the actual cost structure. The same is true for Internet service. Your ISP pays to provide and maintain the connection to your house, and that cost for the most part is fixed. If we were to incorrectly apply the utility analogy, then if I turn my computer off for a month, I should get a bill for $0, but I don't. They can't do this because the connection cost them whether heavily used, partially used, or not used at all.
The only fair comparison you can make to a utility is when discussing the infrastructure. Because the hurdles and obstacles in providing a wire to your house for a broadband connection are very similar to those faced when providing any other utility service to your house.
How many of those utilities over came these hurdles is by establishing a common carrier status to the physical infrastructure. That's how different phone companies can offer competing service over the same copper lines, or how different electric companies can do the same of one set of power lines into your house. Ultimately the best solution is to have a municipally or privately owned broadband infrastructure that allows for ISPs to compete over that common infrastructure. But that change will not be quick or easy. In the meantime we need legislation that will prevent those monopolizing the infrastructure from abusing their position for money grab schemes.
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hottboiinnc @ 21st Jun 05:01PM:
Re: Sensible regulation
The courts would decide if its enforcable. And by who? The FCC and the FTC? LMAO!
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ross @ 22nd Jun 07:16PM:
Re: I left Time Warner due to...
said by hottboiinnc :
No it would not be a problem for ATT they're given the right to kill those resellers when and if they deploy a next generation network in any area. If U-Verse DSL or U-Verse FTTH is available to home and only those you can NOT get a reseller to get the higher speeds. Those speeds are only available from ATT directly. If you live in the FTTH areas resellers are a thing of the past.
Thanks for helping to make my point re AT&T in particular. AT&T is the problem. Period. Monopoly plus greed equals AT&T business plan. Fuck AT&T!
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margaf77 @ 23rd Jun 12:45PM:
Re: Excellent.....
Consumers cannot vote with their dollars in most markets. What part of that cant people understand?
And as for internet not being essential, try doing anything today without internet access for 30 days and post back about it.
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anon @ 24th Jun 01:27PM:
msg deleted
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anon @ 24th Jun 01:31PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
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anon @ 28th Jun 05:35AM:
Bandwith Caps discriminate against the Deaf
broadband caps will have a major impact on the deaf. Almost every deaf person uses video relay such as SnapVRS and Viable. Most deaf are low income and can only afford baisc service. What if you go over the limit and then need to use the video relay to call 911. ATT - a greedy company that takes advantage of the disabled.
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linicx @ 16th Aug 09:22PM:
Huh????
IF service providers wanted to do something about the HD movie and p2p downloads, instead of whining about it, they can block the IP number and get over it.
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside
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