NSA Still 'Overcollecting' American Data - Even after laws were changed to broaden their mandate...
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manfmmd @ 16th Apr 09:30AM:
Pot...meet kettle
Change YOU can believe in!
Where are the calls to impeach Obama?
Where is congressional oversight?
Where is the balance of power?
Where are the checks and balances?
Oh, that's right, the new administration affiliation is "Democrat".
:uhh:
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If the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, what is the road to Heaven paved with?
If the Democrats win in November and retain the Congress, are they going to bitch about "no checks and balances"? Not. Holding. My. Breath.
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pnh102 @ 16th Apr 09:35AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Amen to that.
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mr sean @ 16th Apr 09:42AM:
Does William Safire approve of "overcollected"?
Great.
Banks are under-capitalized and the intelligence agencies are "overcollected".
I did like this bit though:
And in one previously undisclosed episode, the N.S.A. tried to wiretap a member of Congress without a warrant, an intelligence official with direct knowledge of the matter said.
The agency believed that the congressman, whose identity could not be determined, was in contact — as part of a Congressional delegation to the Middle East in 2005 or 2006 — with an extremist who had possible terrorist ties and was already under surveillance, the official said. The agency then sought to eavesdrop on the congressman’s conversations, the official said.
The official said the plan was ultimately blocked because of concerns from some intelligence officials about using the N.S.A., without court oversight, to spy on a member of Congress.
Perhaps we would all be safer if our elected officials really were monitored by the NSA.
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DrModem @ 16th Apr 09:51AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Maybe we should all succeed.
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travelguy @ 16th Apr 09:54AM:
In other (unreported) news...
The Obama administration, in a complete reversal from their position prior to the election, has decided that the Bush/Cheney policies for warrantless surveillance weren't so bad after all and have decided to keep them in place...
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puck0114 @ 16th Apr 10:00AM:
No surprise here...
This just proves that once you give the government this sort of power, they'll never give it up, regardless who's in the White House, controlling Congress, etc.
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pnh102 @ 16th Apr 10:11AM:
Re: No surprise here...
said by puck0114 :
This just proves that once you give the government this sort of power, they'll never give it up, regardless who's in the White House, controlling Congress, etc.
That's funny.
When Bush continued Clinton's extraordinary rendition policies, there was nothing but howls of outrage from the left of how evil Bush was.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!
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mr sean @ 16th Apr 10:19AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Success is good.
Secession is a horse of a different color.
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Mr Matt @ 16th Apr 10:27AM:
NSA replays J. Edgar Hoover
:( In a recent news report it was disclosed that the Barack Administration fears an NSA backlash if the administration attempts to rein in the NSA. Remember J. Edgar Hoover. Whenever a politician opposed J. Edgar, he pulled out their secret file and threaten to disclose anything naughty that they did. As a result J. Edgar held the politician by the short hairs and we had the tail wagging the dog. The telecom carriers funnel allot of money to politicians to support them through pay offs by lobbyists. Don't look for relief soon.
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knightmb @ 16th Apr 10:29AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by manfmmd :
Change YOU can believe in!
Where are the calls to impeach Obama?
Where is congressional oversight?
Where is the balance of power?
Where are the checks and balances?
Oh, that's right, the new administration affiliation is "Democrat".
:uhh:
LOL, reminds me of all the "phony drama" during the election. Glad that is over with, I tire of watching it in the media 24/7. I can handle some of it here where it's easy to scroll past it. :D
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mr sean @ 16th Apr 10:30AM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
Um...not quite true.
Obama's stance remains unchanged from his senate days.
If one were to pay attention to Obama's voting record in the senate, one would notice that he (and McCain) voted for the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 in July of last year (passed 69-28). This maintained Bush's warrantless wiretap policy AND gave the Telcos immunity for funneling info.
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travelguy @ 16th Apr 10:34AM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
During the campaign, when retroactive immunity was about to be granted to telcos last year Obama said about the pending bill: "It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance -- making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses".
That position seems to have changed.
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anon @ 16th Apr 10:38AM:
Big Brother Needs a Check-up From the Neck-up
'Surveillance Self-Defense' Gives Practical Advice on Protecting Your Private Data
»www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/03/03
Reform The PATRIOT Act
»https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd···n&id=429
Government Claims Unfettered Right to Tag Your Car with Tracking Devices
»www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/03/03-0
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NetAdmin @ 16th Apr 10:42AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Very true.
Here's another one for you... What ever happened to fiscal discipline? That phrase dropped from the Democrats vocabulary once they took power.
It doesn't matter who you vote for, they suck.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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TKJunkMail @ 16th Apr 10:46AM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
said by travelguy :
It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses".
That position seems to have changed.
And there is a reason for that. HE is now responsible for protecting the nation and is no longer a Senate blowhard angling for political points. The landscape looks a little different when it is you that has to maintain it instead of just pointing out problems.
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wifi4milez @ 16th Apr 10:50AM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
said by TKJunkMail :said by travelguy :
It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses".
That position seems to have changed.
And there is a reason for that.
HE is now responsible for protecting the nation and is no longer a Senate blowhard angling for political points. The landscape looks a little different when it is you that has to maintain it instead of just pointing out problems.
BINGO
--
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
-Ronald Reagan-
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axus @ 16th Apr 10:53AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Obama's opponents were calling for impeachment before he even took any actions as president:
»www.breitbart.com/article.php?id···rticle=1
You might want to remember that Republicans restarted the "Impeach President X" trend with Bill Clinton.
I think some people should face criminal charges for the warrant-less spying on Americans. If Bush, Cheney, Obama, or anyone else OK'd it then they should be held accountable.
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Pv8man @ 16th Apr 11:02AM:
One thing...
If you read this story on Drudge Report, the title says..
"NSA intercepts private e-mail messages, phone calls of Americans in recent months; Exceed limits set by congress..."
Recent Months???.... as if this was not going on before???
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mr sean @ 16th Apr 11:10AM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
Your quote, from the same time period, refers to the grant for immunity.
As for warrantless wiretaps, the key phrase from your quote is "It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future." This is in reference to the already existing FISA courts taking the lead (again) over Bush's assertion that the executive branch can supersede FISA courts. Obama did not, and does not, assert that the executive branch "trumps" FISA courts.
But FISA is still essentially warrantless for casting a big net, oversight not coming until the search is narrowed.
From The Washington PostGiven the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as president, I will carefully monitor the program," Obama said in a statement hours after the House approved the legislation 293-129.
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Lord_Black @ 16th Apr 11:17AM:
Re: NSA replays J. Edgar Hoover
said by Mr Matt :
:( In a recent news report it was disclosed that the Barack Administration fears an NSA backlash if the administration attempts to rein in the NSA.
Ha. Funny. Is this some sort of sarcasm or parody I am not seeing? I hope you do not really believe that stuff you posted do you? Or is it that you cannot comprehend that the "messiah" Obama and his administration truly do support NSA wiretaps and have no intention of giving up those powers? Hell, Obama voted for the whole FISA bill last year after trying to game the public by stating he voted against certain parts of it. Politicians lie as it is second nature to them.
Government opts for secrecy in wiretap suit
Obama DOJ Worse Than Bush
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en102 @ 16th Apr 11:51AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by NetAdmin :
It doesn't matter who you vote for, they suck.
I agree with this statement particularly.
I have no party loyalties:
- Republicans = Big business, sell everything, lowest overseas bidder wins
- Democrats = Big Unions, tax us into oblivion, free services for those that sneak into the country and 'drop' their kids at the local county hospital (paid for by the legal tax payer)
There has to be a middle ground.
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en102 @ 16th Apr 11:54AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
It would have been difficult to try to bring up Cheney on charges... his secret assassination squad would have nipped that in the bud.
Don't you think wiretapping + assassination squad would work well together ;)
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neowulf @ 16th Apr 11:54AM:
Re: No surprise here...
Yeah that's funny also.
It seems like now that Obama is in the White house the right is now outraged at the very things the left was during the Bush administration.
Being in the middle as a Independent I am outraged at Americans fighting the whole "left and right war" against each other instead of banding together. This very topic proves that we are too busy fighting each other rather then doing anything about it. Lets just blame each party and fight each other, because that works real great at getting things done.
Politicians love two party systems they always know they will have their base of support no matter what they do after elected. We really need a strong third party to really have politicians practice what they campaign. But sadly most Americans don't take any third party seriously.
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puck0114 @ 16th Apr 12:00PM:
Exactly
It would be nice to have a political party that values pragmatism over poorly thought out ideology.
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huntml @ 16th Apr 12:38PM:
I supported Obama on balance...
...even though this was one area in which I disagreed with him. He's made it clear all along that he is much more sympathetic to suggestions that the government needs warrantless wiretapping and data-collection powers than many civil libertarians would like.
Fact is, though, on this issue, given the choice between him and Sen. McCain, there wasn't much difference, with Obama's position seeming marginally more agreeable to me than Sen. McCain's, mostly on the basis of their rhetoric and the way the framed the issues in their statements about them.
This all said, this all was uncovered as part of a mandated semiannual review that began before the Obama administration took power, and it must be noted that all of this apparently came out on background from intelligence community people, an apparently deliberate leak. So it appears that at least someone of authority in the Obama administration wanted the fact that the NSA had been overstepping its authority out there.
In contrast, when the NYT broke the original story about the NSA's programs in this area back in 2005, I believe their they were asked *not* to publish the story, and did, for a while, only publishing it when they got wind that the White House might be planning a 'Pentagon Papers'-style legal attempt to completely quash the story.
While I don't think they are going far enough, I think these distinctions show that this administration is least trying to be more transparent about these activities than the former administration was.
Remember that the prior administration wanted FISA-type oversight kept completely out of this area.
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tacoma @ 16th Apr 01:12PM:
Re: One thing...
He was just quoting what the NY Times had in their story.
I'd ask them.
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Nerdtalker @ 16th Apr 01:22PM:
Re: No surprise here...
said by neowulf :
It seems like now that Obama is in the White house the right is now outraged at the very things the left was during the Bush administration.
Perhaps, but don't be so black and white with that frame of mind.
There are equally as many of us who were displeased with some of things Bush did (especially the teleco immunity and NSA wiretapping policies) who are now equally displeased with the Obama administration's similar stance.
Welcome to the new boss. Same as, well, the old boss.
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neowulf @ 16th Apr 02:27PM:
Re: No surprise here...
Perhaps, but don't be so black and white with that frame of mind.
As long as the strong two party system remains, it is just as black and white as that. That doesn't mean there are not shades of gray in each party, but the overall picture is most people follow their party lines.
Welcome to the new boss. Same as, well, the old boss.
No disputing that from me. I never believed Obama was going to be any different then Bush. With politics you learn that there is no one on your side once they are elected. They have their stump speeches for their base. All they do is try to get their base excited enough to vote. They aren't trying to get the other sides people to vote for them, just their own base to vote for them.
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old_wiz_60 @ 16th Apr 03:25PM:
business as usual
The spooks are a government of their own, answerable to no one. Anyone who thinks NSA gives a f**k about civil liberties, the constitution, or any law is deluded. It's not a democrat/republican thing - the NSA screw both of them.
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pnh102 @ 16th Apr 05:00PM:
Re: No surprise here...
said by neowulf :
It seems like now that Obama is in the White house the right is now outraged at the very things the left was during the Bush administration.
I personally don't think what Obama is doing in this regard is a bad thing. I do get some measure of happiness watching Obama's followers defend something Obama is doing that, when Bush did it, was "bad." Of course, when Bush did this, it was front page news, now that Obama is doing it, it gets buried in the back of the paper, if it is discussed at all.
said by neowulf :
Being in the middle as a Independent I am outraged at Americans fighting the whole "left and right war" against each other instead of banding together.
Eeek. Every time the "left" and "right" come together, the result usually sucks (shamnesty, copyright extensions, earmarks, etc.). I hope obstructionism rules the day.
said by neowulf :
We really need a strong third party to really have politicians practice what they campaign. But sadly most Americans don't take any third party seriously.
Based on purely an historical context, it can be concluded that there will never be a third major political party in the USA. Any up and coming third party will inevitably displace one of the existing major parties. Since the Democrat and Republican parties pretty much march in lock-step on many issues issues, including, but not limited to: deficit spending (both for it), shamnesty (both for it), growing government (both for it), expanding the welfare state (both for it) and the like, there does exist an opportunity for a third party of disaffected voters to coalesce together with (most likely) the GOP going away.
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paulinkc @ 16th Apr 05:06PM:
Re: Does William Safire approve of "overcollected"?
said by mr sean :Great.
Banks are under-capitalized and the intelligence agencies are "overcollected".
I did like this bit though:
And in one previously undisclosed episode, the N.S.A. tried to wiretap a member of Congress without a warrant, an intelligence official with direct knowledge of the matter said.
The agency believed that the congressman, whose identity could not be determined, was in contact — as part of a Congressional delegation to the Middle East in 2005 or 2006 — with an extremist who had possible terrorist ties and was already under surveillance, the official said. The agency then sought to eavesdrop on the congressman’s conversations, the official said.
The official said the plan was ultimately blocked because of concerns from some intelligence officials about using the N.S.A., without court oversight, to spy on a member of Congress.
Perhaps we would all be safer if our elected officials
really were monitored by the NSA.
Yeah but someone wiretapping a Congressman is not ok, but wiretapping other American's is? I don't see the connection here?
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anon @ 16th Apr 05:45PM:
NSA
You are missing the point that AT@T ex tech who showed how the NSA RECORDED EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON AT@T's backbone did it for me. Not SOME of it but ALL of it. Second if you think those 3 internet outages in the middle east were accidents LOL it was the NSA splicing those fiber optic cables and yes the have subs that can do it.
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michigandave @ 16th Apr 06:59PM:
Re: Exactly
said by puck0114 :
It would be nice to have a political party that values pragmatism over poorly thought out ideology.
They are out there but it involves not being spoon fed by CNN or Fox News. There are good ideas outside the realm of R and D.
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:20PM:
Told ya so....
This is what we've been saying all along, the NSA warrantless wiretapping *WILL* be abused.... and of course we got back "If you're not a terrorist, you have nothing to fear."
OK, then you people have nothing to fear from the US Government, taxes, or anything else.... it can *never* be abused, right?
Obama sure is on the wrong side of this issue, but let's not pretend he created it.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:22PM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by NetAdmin :
Here's another one for you... What ever happened to fiscal discipline? That phrase dropped from the Democrats vocabulary once they took power.
It's called an economic crisis. Obama still says he'll tackle the deficit. Guess we'll see.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:24PM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
said by travelguy :
The Obama administration, in a complete reversal from their position prior to the election, has decided that the Bush/Cheney policies for warrantless surveillance weren't so bad after all and have decided to keep them in place...
False.
Obama is on record, and supported, and it was much debated, (and not liked amongst his supporters) the need for this wiretapping PRIOR to the election. His position has been consistent and exactly like he said.... even if it sucks.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:26PM:
Re: I supported Obama on balance...
Don't confuse people with the facts. :D The same people who supported the Bush administration's need to do this "to fight teh terrorists" are now back bashing Obama and casting blame.... It's just politics :D
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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travelguy @ 16th Apr 10:40PM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
said by KrK :
False.
Obama is on record, and supported, and it was much debated, (and not liked amongst his supporters) the need for this wiretapping PRIOR to the election. His position has been consistent and exactly like he said.... even if it sucks.
You are correct - he did change his position before the election...
»www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter···lop-yes/
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:44PM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
You're confusing the retroactive immunity provision which he wasn't much of a fan of -- to the warrantless wiretapping program itself.
He never changed his position on the wiretapping. He supported it all along (much to the chagrin of many of his supporters.)
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK @ 16th Apr 10:45PM:
Re: In other (unreported) news...
You're confusing the retroactive immunity provision which he wasn't much of a fan of -- to the warrantless wiretapping program itself.
He never changed his position on the wiretapping. He supported it all along (much to the chagrin of many of his supporters.)
I'm not saying I agree with him on this--- but I am saying charges he "broke" a promise or changed his position since becoming President aren't accurate.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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pnh102 @ 16th Apr 11:42PM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by KrK :
It's called an economic crisis. Obama still says he'll tackle the deficit. Guess we'll see.
Oh he's tackled it alright.
I would imagine that "change" would represent a change from the fiscal irresponsibility of the previous administration. In less than 100 days on the job Obama has managed to make W. look like a fiscal conservative.
If printing money was a way to get out of a recession, then the past couple of years would have been the most prosperous in US history.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!
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NetAdmin @ 16th Apr 11:58PM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by KrK :
It's called an economic crisis.
And? A good chunk of the budget does nothing to address the "crisis". Growing the deficit only creates a bigger problem that will have to be dealt with later.
Obama still says he'll tackle the deficit. Guess we'll see.
And Bush ran as a conservative and expanded government more than any other president. Talk is cheap, politicians know it and act accordingly.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"
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patcat88 @ 17th Apr 12:47AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by manfmmd :
Oh, that's right, the new administration affiliation is "Democrat".
:uhh:
2 party system, either way we win.
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patcat88 @ 17th Apr 12:49AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by en102 :
There has to be a middle ground.
Its called a 3rd party.
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patcat88 @ 17th Apr 12:50AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by en102 :
It would have been difficult to try to bring up Cheney on charges... his secret assassination squad would have nipped that in the bud.
Don't you think wiretapping + assassination squad would work well together ;)
Putting the executive branch on trial infringes on national security. :p
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patcat88 @ 17th Apr 12:52AM:
Re: Does William Safire approve of "overcollected"?
said by mr sean :
Perhaps we would all be safer if our elected officials really were monitored by the NSA.
Maybe you should answer, who does the NSA work for or represent?
Better idea is to just put A/V recording collars on all elected officials and put them on justin.tv 24/7.
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KrK @ 17th Apr 01:10AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
You know however the Government's actions do appear to be having an effect. Things are starting to move again.
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old_dawg @ 17th Apr 01:25AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by manfmmd :
Change YOU can believe in!
Where are the calls to impeach Obama?
Where is congressional oversight?
Where is the balance of power?
Where are the checks and balances?
Oh, that's right, the new administration affiliation is "Democrat".
:uhh:
Double plus good. +1
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old_dawg @ 17th Apr 01:27AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
said by KrK :
You know however the Government's actions do appear to be having an effect. Things are starting to move again.
In an downward trend... :uhh:
--
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operagost @ 17th Apr 09:41AM:
Re: Pot...meet kettle
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc? Besides, the stock market is the only thing going up (sort of) right now.
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