Obama Protects AT&T, Verizon Lobbying Records - Continues to delay handover of wiretap immunity lobbying docs...
Links: home · search · speed test · login · more ·
Obama Protects AT&T, Verizon Lobbying Records Continues to delay handover of wiretap immunity lobbying docs... 08:58AM Friday Oct 16 2009 by Karl Bode tags: business · privacy · consumers Tipped by S_engineer
A Federal Judge has demanded, three times now, that the Obama Administration hand over documents that highlight how major phone companies AT&T and Verizon lobbied for legal immunity for their involvement in the government's warrantless wiretap program. The government, with no real legal footing to stand on, has now tried to delay that release three times in order to keep those documents out of the ongoing Congressional discussion about domestic wiretapping. Interestingly, Politico has obtained a leaked government e-mail that suggests that even if and when the Obama Administration releases the documents, they may continue to protect the names of the companies involved in the lobbying. A government filing from yesterday offers Uncle Sam's murky position on why: "Disclosure of such information would assist our adversaries in drawing inferences about whether certain telecommunications companies may or may not have assisted the government in intelligence-gathering activities," Justice Department lawyers argue in the new motion. "Disclosure of the identities of those individuals and entities that may have assisted, or in the future may assist, the government with intelligence activities could impede the government's ability to gather intelligence information." Of course leaks have already suggested AT&T and Verizon are the major players here, though there may be dozens of other companies involved. If the Obama administration is acting to shield these companies from financial damage, that raises questions about whether that's the government's job (and a good use of tax dollars). It also obviously violates the administration's transparency campaign promises. Given how hard the government is fighting against the release of these documents, you have to be curious about what new information they might contain. Related:- T-Mobile Systems Hacked?
- BitBlinder: Like TOR, But Faster
- Phorm Fighting Tightening Balance Sheet AND Critics
- Cable's 'Canoe' Plan Takes On Water
- AT&T No Longer Wants Kevin Mitnick As A Customer
- Verizon Named Most Trusted Company With Your Privacy. Really?
- Shocker: Informed Consumers Want Privacy, Not Tailored Ads
- Court: Uncle Sam Must Hand Over Immunity Lobbying Docs
|
Links: New Topic
Forums »
page: 1 · 2
Murdoc @ 16th Oct 09:08AM:
must have something to hide.
Its time for the government and these bad telco companies to be held accountable, quit hiding it already!
reply
TKJunkMail @ 16th Oct 09:10AM:
Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
If the Obama administration is acting to shield these companies from financial damage, that raises questions about whether that's the government's job
The gov't, for right or wrong, has LONG made it their policy to undertake actions to improve the US economy, and those companies that are part of it. And many of those who are lobbying now for disclosure are the biggest proponents of gov't involvement in the economy. So, it appears that they are only for gov't intrusion in business when it suits their own political leanings. Looks like they forgot one of the universal truths - get gov't involved in running business, you get the bad along with the good. THE BAD, of course, depending on one's political inclinations.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
reply
Z80 @ 16th Oct 09:11AM:
Chicago pay to play?
Change you can believe in.
reply
manfmmd @ 16th Oct 09:16AM:
and
- 'Blatant Trolling' .. -
I thought my response was perfect...
pfft.
How about I put it into text.
We told you so. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss. The sooner people realize this, the better.
--
"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 09:16AM:
Stop living in a fantasy world...
Even the most liberal president in modern history is protecting them for a reason. His #1 job is to protect the USA. He and his most liberal advisors have entered office and see the horrors that have been planned against this country and this program helps keep us safe.
I don't think you folks understand the dangers we face. I don't think Obama did until he started getting the daily briefings.
You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Bush is gone. Its time to realize there really is a threat out there to our society and Obama is now in charge of protecting us. I know before it was fun to make fun of Bush's grammar and believed he trumped up all of the threats.
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 10:26AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
PLEASE!
said by Tarheels Fan :
Even the most liberal president in modern history is protecting them for a reason. His #1 job is to protect the USA. He and his most liberal advisors have entered office and see the horrors that have been planned against this country and this program helps keep us safe.
I don't think you folks understand the dangers we face. I don't think Obama did until he started getting the daily briefings.
You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Bush is gone. Its time to realize there really is a threat out there to our society and Obama is now in charge of protecting us. I know before it was fun to make fun of Bush's grammar and believed he trumped up all of the threats.
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
reply
Van @ 16th Oct 09:20AM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
said by TKJunkMail :
And many of those who are lobbying now for disclosure are the biggest proponents of gov't involvement in the economy.
Not sure I agree with that whatsoever.
I see hardcore conservatives and liberals all wanting disclosure.
reply
manfmmd @ 16th Oct 09:20AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
Even the most liberal president in modern history is protecting them for a reason. His #1 job is to protect the USA. He and his most liberal advisors have entered office and see the horrors that have been planned against this country and this program helps keep us safe.
I don't think you folks understand the dangers we face. I don't think Obama did until he started getting the daily briefings.
You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Bush is gone. Its time to realize there really is a threat out there to our society and Obama is now in charge of protecting us. I know before it was fun to make fun of Bush's grammar and believed he trumped up all of the threats.
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
I think if they posted the information that is contained in the daily briefings in every major newspaper on the front page for 2 days, a good 3/4 of this county would shit their collective pants.
As Colonel Jessup once said:
"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"
--
"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
reply
ravensfan55 @ 16th Oct 09:21AM:
Re: Chicago pay to play?
If Bush was in office Harry Reid and Nancy Bitch would stomp over to the White House and get the documents themselves, but they will play by Black Jesus' rules all day.
reply
Hazy Arc @ 16th Oct 09:22AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
I agree wholeheartedly. I am glad that Obama has awoken to this fact so soon.
reply
woody7 @ 16th Oct 09:23AM:
hmmm.....
It sure doesn't take long for the "shills" to get involved.
--
BlooMe
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 09:24AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 09:25AM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
said by Van :
I see hardcore conservatives and liberals all wanting disclosure.
For different reasons? The liberals are supporting their party's proclamation of transparency, while the conservatives are calling out the liberals' failures of keeping promises of transparency.
reply
crashoverride @ 16th Oct 09:26AM:
Re: must have something to hide.
said by Murdoc :
Its time for the government and these bad telco companies to be held accountable, quit hiding it already!
Ya really think that is going to happen? We are talking about the same companies that embezzled monies from uncle Sam that was supposed to be used to wire rural communities.
reply
lesopp @ 16th Oct 09:26AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
They would still blame Bush and award Obama employee of the month.
reply
moonpuppy @ 16th Oct 09:27AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
Even the most liberal president in modern history is protecting them for a reason. His #1 job is to protect the USA. He and his most liberal advisors have entered office and see the horrors that have been planned against this country and this program helps keep us safe.
I don't think you folks understand the dangers we face. I don't think Obama did until he started getting the daily briefings.
You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Bush is gone. Its time to realize there really is a threat out there to our society and Obama is now in charge of protecting us. I know before it was fun to make fun of Bush's grammar and believed he trumped up all of the threats.
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
O.k. I would buy this EXCEPT you have Pelosi and Reid calling for heads to roll in the "torture" cases that happened during the Bush Administration.
This is not about protecting the country but to protect a few people in power. If it were about protecting the country, then the "waterboarding" that took place would also be pushed under the rug like the current administration is trying to do with this telco immunity.
Maybe after Obama leaves office, we can put him and his administration on trial and see what happens.
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 09:28AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Thats unfortunate they believe that way. You know the funny thing is, I wish the world was that way.
The reality is, it's not....
I commend the President for keeping us safe so far. I am glad he is using renditions.
Its quite ironic actually - he wins by stopping the US "torture", but will send their ass to Pakistan to be really tortured.
He closes club gitmo and talks of lockin 'em up for 23 hours daily in supermax prison.
Its a win - win for Obama, yet both programs are worse for the actual terrorists the left was yelling to protect.
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 09:30AM:
Re: hmmm.....
How is protecting the intelligence interests of our national security shilling? Continual parading of shill accusations is an empty argument that contributes nothing to the actual discussion...except derailing it into a pissing contest.
reply
Mactron @ 16th Oct 09:30AM:
Mmm Mmm Mmm ...
The Hypocrisy of the Obama Administration is just amazing.
This is the Change the Voters fell allover themselves for ?..
--
If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well. ;)
reply
Time @ 16th Oct 09:30AM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
said by openbox9 :said by Van :
I see hardcore conservatives and liberals all wanting disclosure.
For different reasons? The liberals are supporting their party's proclamation of transparency, while the conservatives are calling out the liberals' failures of keeping promises of transparency.
[sarcasm]
He's not even "1 freakin' year" in guys, both the liberals and conservatives should give him a break, since everything is going to magically change in January.
[/sarcasm]
Anyways, yeah, you're right on.
--
"If it can't be done with brains, it can't be done with hours" - Clarence "Kelly" Johnson
reply
Laughing Man @ 16th Oct 09:30AM:
Re: hmmm.....
Nope, I have the popcorn, you bring the drinks and watch the show unfold.
reply
glinc @ 16th Oct 09:32AM:
Bribe!!!
Check obama's bank account to see how much bribe he received from att and verizon to delay those docs!
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 09:35AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
That is political pandering.
Its part of the game. What difference is it if we do it, with a couple of ER docs watching or sending their ass to a 3rd world nation to do real torture?
Of course Pelosi and Reid are calling for heads to roll. Thats throwing a bone to their base. They really don't care about it. You are talking like 3-4 admitted killers.
Again, you had people plot and kill 3000 Americans. If you are a truther, then there is no talking sense into you, but if you believe it was planned and done by the people who admitted to doing it, then you have to realize the threat is still there....
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 09:36AM:
Re: Bribe!!!
I believe there is a larger reason to prevent the release of these documents. If that turns out not to be the case, then I'm much more inclined to believe that the delay is to protect people in government, not AT&T or Verizon. AT&T and Verizon already have immunity, what do they really have to lose at this point?
reply
nasadude @ 16th Oct 09:52AM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
said by TKJunkMail :
The gov't, for right or wrong, has LONG made it their policy to undertake actions to improve the US economy, and those companies that are part of it. ....
hahahahaha. that's funny.
you got the "...improve...those companies.." part right; not so much the US economy part.
the govts policies have done wonders for the bankrupt financial institutions that have ruined our economy, but they haven't done squat for the overall US economy. all the govt has done is try to re-inflate the bubble, debase the dollar and hope things get better before the sh!t hits the fan again.
reply
El Quintron @ 16th Oct 09:56AM:
Records need to be made public
Lobbying records are not national defence issues.
The government should stop procrastinating, deliver the records and process wrongdoers through the courts.
reply
Van @ 16th Oct 09:59AM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
said by openbox9 :said by Van :
I see hardcore conservatives and liberals all wanting disclosure.
For different reasons? The liberals are supporting their party's proclamation of transparency, while the conservatives are calling out the liberals' failures of keeping promises of transparency.
Good point
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 09:59AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
N3OGH @ 16th Oct 10:01AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
I have no doubt when Obama started getting the same national security briefings as Bush, he muttered the phrase "what the F#$K" under his breath.
It's my understanding that once the final 2 candidates reach the tail end of their run, they start getting the same briefs as the President.
So while Obama is talking about change on one hand, on the other he knows what he has to do.
I hope the President, whoever he is, does what it takes to keep us safe.
But as was stated before. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. I'm not looking to torpedo the man. I understand he's only been there a year, blah blah blah.
But let's face it folks, any better than Bush did? Take Obama off the telepormpter and it's a train wreck. Guantanamo Bay is still open, we're still in Iraq, and Afghanistan is starting to implode. The wire tapping that went on under Bush continues under Obama. No real "change". Same old same old from another slick politician.
It's not my intention to criticize. Simply to point out facts. So many people got caught up in the cult of personality. At the same time everyone was hatin' on Bush, he came along and got the collective to buy his story.
IMHO, one step above a really good car salesman that wants NOTHING to do with a second term. He'll either find a reason not to run again, or he'll run a half ass campaign the second time around. I don't think he understood what he was getting himself into when he threw his hat into the ring, and even more so when he actually got there.
Right now, Obama is wishing he was still in the Senate. I know I would be if I were him....
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power
reply
n2jtx @ 16th Oct 10:14AM:
Boss
"Meet the new boss - same as the old boss"
reply
moonpuppy @ 16th Oct 10:21AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
That is political pandering.
Its part of the game. What difference is it if we do it, with a couple of ER docs watching or sending their ass to a 3rd world nation to do real torture?
Of course Pelosi and Reid are calling for heads to roll. Thats throwing a bone to their base. They really don't care about it. You are talking like 3-4 admitted killers.
Again, you had people plot and kill 3000 Americans. If you are a truther, then there is no talking sense into you, but if you believe it was planned and done by the people who admitted to doing it, then you have to realize the threat is still there....
I am no truther. I do believe that pissed off Muslims did this deed and i don't think the government has the imagination nor the competence to carry out this type of operation without someone blabbing about it.
That being said, I have no problem torturing people who do not believe in rights for others of a different religion.
What bothers me is Pelosi knew about the torture and said nothing until after Obama was in office and then denied she heard it. Pure political pandering and yet, most people don't see it. I'll bet that if another attack does happen, they will still blame Bush.
Sometimes, I feel like we need an IQ test to vote.
reply
NOCTech75 @ 16th Oct 10:22AM:
Didn't this guy promise a more transparent government?
Change, we can believe in.
reply
nasadude @ 16th Oct 10:23AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Tarheels Fan - since I haven't seen Ben's quote in this thread yet, here ya go:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
security theater and violating constitutional liberties hasn't saved lives either. neither has stupidity or invading countries that neither attacked us nor were involved with 9/11.
here's another quote: we have nothing to fear, but fear itself.
you sound scared; I'm not.
reply
Harddrive @ 16th Oct 10:28AM:
Big Business = Big Government
how else is the CEO of the USA gonna survive after his Presidency? the man's gotta get retirement from some of the Companies he has supported during his term in office. its not like that Noble Peace Prize is gonna pay his grocery bill every month when he moves back to Chicago.
tactics changed Mr. President.
from "Yes We Can" to "No We Won't".
--
I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum.
reply
TKJunkMail @ 16th Oct 10:33AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
Even the most liberal president in modern history is protecting them for a reason. His #1 job is to protect the USA. He and his most liberal advisors have entered office and see the horrors that have been planned against this country and this program helps keep us safe.
Unfortunately, many PEOPLE are basically suicidal dreamers who think the world can be some wonderful place where everyone is altruistic. And if they stick their heads in the sand, all threats to the US from abroad will just disappear because they can't see them with their heads 2 ft underground. Fortunately, most presidents(except maybe Jimmy Carter), learn very quickly that the world is an extremely dangerous dog-eat-dog place. And they wise up and take actions that go against their previously incorrect rosy view of the world.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
reply
Rob @ 16th Oct 10:41AM:
Does it matter anymore?
President Obama, shortly after taking office, published the torture memos - memos which I believe should have never been released, because we still have enemies, both domestic and foreign.
The fact that he had no problem releasing those, but has an issue releasing these wiretap immunity lobbying docs clearly tells me that the telcos are in charge of our government.
--
CheckSite.us | YourIP.us | Reverseip.us
reply
old_wiz_60 @ 16th Oct 10:47AM:
Re: Does it matter anymore?
not just the telcos, it's the **AA, record companies, newspapers. They have all given enormouse amounts of money, hookers, and drugs to various government agencies and they expect a return on their investment.
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 10:48AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
woody7 @ 16th Oct 10:50AM:
Re: hmmm.....
see it didn't take long, but to the poster above how is what they did in the interest of national security, if you don't know what they did, and if it actually "protected" us, and I can actually piss pretty far and hard ;) ;) ;)
--
BlooMe
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 11:02AM:
Re: hmmm.....
To the poster above me, how is collecting intelligence on suspected terrorists not in the interest of national security?
reply
JKM @ 16th Oct 11:03AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
First, I couldn't care less about this fight over documents. What troubles me is our bleeding heart, liberal friends who think freedom is free!
The biggest mistake made by any administration is allow the people to know the facts of war. The truth is as simple as a movie line, "you can't handle the truth".
I wish those who don't have the stomach for what has to be done would keep their opinions to themselves. However, in this great country we all have a right to our opinions. That does not make it any easier for me to tolerate. It is a shame you can't live somewhere that you aren't protected.
I wish you could realize your liberty without the protection afforded to you by the people who lay it on the line. I am certain you would find that liberty non-existent without those willing to do what ever it takes to protect it, while you criticize their actions.
--
Begin with the end in mind!
EDIT: I forgot to mention, I'm not scared. When the facts are clear enough to make even Obama see the light, what do we have to fear?
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 11:04AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 11:10AM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
optemino @ 16th Oct 11:15AM:
bad government
Really?!
Obama's Administration is being WAY to childish, why don't they just hand over the freakin records and take their punishment....
honestly, that's what happens when you listen too much to the little telcos
reply
JesusBeamz @ 16th Oct 11:19AM:
Re: bad government
.... obama inherited this wiretapping fiasco, he did not introduce it... thanks
reply
woody7 @ 16th Oct 11:19AM:
Re: hmmm.....
you do not have a way to quantify your claim, or you would. I'm not against "national security"per say, but when broad claims are made without "evidence" to substantiate the said claim, then you are just shilling or trolling for the telcos. I'm tired of hearing it's in our best interests without knowing. This is the same crap we heard about Vietnam, (for full disclosure, I served 2 tours, and I knew it was bullshit, but as long as I was there my brother didn't have to go) so don't lecture me on "national security" unless you have the facts to back it up. Peace
--
BlooMe
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 11:34AM:
Re: hmmm.....
Can we please stop trotting out the inappropriately used term of shill. I have no financial motivation or loyalty ties enticing me to express my opinions, just as I don't believe you do either. Disclosure has it's place. You're right. I don't have proof to support my claim of national security interests anymore than you have proof otherwise. I know this tends to be an odd concept these days, but I have faith in our government's ability to keep me safe and the actions it takes to do so.
reply
axiomatic @ 16th Oct 11:42AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
I pretty much disagree with almost everything you said.
Whats to say the reaction of the people you say "can't handle the truth" isn't warranted or needed? But what is obvious is that you fear the truth of this argument. Why you fear it is a mystery as well. Do you have something to lose from this report going public? Or do you just follow blindly in your patriotism believing that whatever the President thinks is good for us must really be good?
And your comment of "I wish those who don't have the stomach for what has to be done would keep their opinions to themselves." is especially curious. It sounds to me that it is you who does not have the stomach for the truth getting out?
You are basically another "nanny state" supporter and whats worse is you don't even realize it. Or maybe you do and you just don't realize that not all of us are "followers" like you. Some of us are "leaders" and demand the truth.
reply
woody7 @ 16th Oct 11:47AM:
Re: hmmm.....
However noble, "unquestioned" loyalty/faith is not a good thing in my opinion. But whenever a story comes up about the "telcos" and their obvious disregard for the rule of law, whether directed by the govt. or not, are we supposed to take their actions on "faith" that we are being protected ?. Mechanisms were in place to cover their "collective" asses, but they chose to disregard them, and that is the problem. Now we are told to just accept that, I think not. I am an Obama supporter, but am getting disillusioned more every day. Just look at the financial sector, we are told if we don't bail them out we are doomed, and now we find that they are still screwing us, but with taxpayer money.
--
BlooMe
reply
moonpuppy @ 16th Oct 11:50AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by N3OGH :
I have no doubt when Obama started getting the same national security briefings as Bush, he muttered the phrase "what the F#$K" under his breath.
It's my understanding that once the final 2 candidates reach the tail end of their run, they start getting the same briefs as the President.
They start getting these briefings shortly after they win the election, not before.
said by N3OGH :
So while Obama is talking about change on one hand, on the other he knows what he has to do.
What bothers me is Obama is still acting like a candidate and not a leader. He has not said that after reviewing the current assessments, we need to keep doing certain things. Instead, he remains silent and ducks and weaves the real issues.
reply
DrModem @ 16th Oct 11:55AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Sure.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
reply
JKM @ 16th Oct 12:00PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
I'm not surprised that you disagree.
It is neither needed or warranted. What part of "I couldn't care less about these documents " do you not understand? Turn them over, I don't care! I am, however, troubled by people who think we have liberty because our forefathers wrote it on a piece of paper. Those same forefathers fought tooth and nail for said liberty. They would have shot anybody who stood between them and that liberty right between the eyes. They would have done, and did do, whatever it took to make it happen. As proof I give you the great United States of America.
I don't have the stomach for people who think they are entitled to anything they want, whatever the cost to whomever.
Yeah, I'm a follower. That is why I am wasting my time trying to get liberal-minded people to see the light. What makes you think you know whether I am a leader? Is it the same thing that makes you want the truth, so you can criticize the people who keep you safe? I suspect yes, as you drew improper conclusions in both cases.
--
Begin with the end in mind!
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 12:04PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
I will along with most other Americans who agree with me...
reply
DrModem @ 16th Oct 12:14PM:
Re: hmmm.....
said by openbox9 :
How is protecting the intelligence interests of our national security shilling?
That excuse to keep stuff secret is yanked out so many times it's now hilarious.
So a few terrorists hit buildings with airplanes on Sept 11 2001. An attack that could have been very prevented with security measures as simple as not letting people carry boxcutters with them on a plane and having a stronger locked door to the pilot cockpit.
And after that, suddenly everything from Comcast's cable footprint to warrentless wiretapping immunity lobbying docs is kept top secret because it "threatens National Security".
Yea, right.
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 12:17PM:
Re: hmmm.....
Evidence? Really? Are you privy to every Top Secret inititiative set forth by our gov't? How about your ass is still alive? Ah, thats not good enough.
Its a trumped up threat... Believe that all you want... let me guess, it was bush and co, that blew up the towers...
Vietnam didn't attack us the way islamic militants did. Your anger is misguided... In fact, why not move to Canada or France, oh wait, they listen to your calls there too.... Another wacky ass gov't... Maybe china?
Show me your proof where your rights were violated...oh wait, you cant...
reply
DrModem @ 16th Oct 12:23PM:
"National Security"
I would like to know, where our grand government intelligence was when actual terrorists(not FBI engineered idiots who are called terrorists after the FBI decides to stop playing with their food) struck Washington DC itself in a successful campaign of terror barely a year after September 11 2001.
I am of course referring to the Beltway Sniper Attacks of 2002.
Those beltway attacks could easily happen again today, in DC or any other area, and be equally if not moreso successful if the perps were more careful.
Those are REAL terrorists. And the government hasn't actually shown merit in catching them.
The beltway snipers were only caught by accident.
reply
manfmmd @ 16th Oct 12:26PM:
Re: "National Security"
It is true what they say about bliss?
reply
manfmmd @ 16th Oct 12:28PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by DrModem :You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Sure.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. I prefer my quote:
Those that are dead cannot have liberty nor can they have safety.
--
"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
reply
DrModem @ 16th Oct 12:31PM:
Re: hmmm.....
said by Tarheels Fan :
Evidence? Really? Are you privy to every Top Secret inititiative set forth by our gov't?
Are you? You sure act like it.
said by Tarheels Fan :
How about your ass is still alive? Ah, thats not good enough.
How about correlation is not causation?
I'm sure on September 10th 2001 you would have been making this argument just as grandly, only to have a huge terrorist attack the next day. The fact is, you have NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE as to whether there hasn't been terrorist attacks because the government is protecting you or because the terrorists haven't decided to do one.
said by Tarheels Fan :
Show me your proof where your rights were violated...oh wait, you cant...
Show him your proof that his rights weren't violated...oh wait, you cant...
reply
Tarheels Fan @ 16th Oct 12:35PM:
Re: hmmm.....
Well I could listen to 2 administrations who have both said that these programs have stopped attacks. Two administrations on the opposite ends of the political spectrum....
I don't need to show proof... If you are the making the accusation, then the onus is on you to prove it...
reply
manfmmd @ 16th Oct 12:38PM:
Re: hmmm.....
Thwarted terrorists attacks, by accident or by investigation:
»www.heritage.org/research/Homela···2085.cfm
Criticisms of post-9/11 efforts to protect the United States from attack range from claims that America is more vulnerable than ever to the contention that the transnational terrorist danger is vastly over-hyped. A review of publicly available information on at least 19 terrorist conspiracies thwarted by U.S. law enforceÂment suggests that the truth lies somewhere in between these two arguments.
JFK Plot, June 2007
Fort Dix Plot, May 2007
Liquid Explosives Plot, August 2006
Assem Hammoud, July 2006
Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine, June 2006
Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, April 2006
Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, Zand Wassim Mazloum, February 2006
Michael C. Reynolds, December 5, 2005
Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson, Hammad Riaz Samana, and Kevin James, August 2005
Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, June 2005Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain, August 2004
James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, August 2004
Dhiren Barot, August 2004
Virginia "Jihad" Network, June 2003
Iyman Faris, May 2003
Lackawanna Six, September 2002
Jose Padilla, May 2002
Richard Reid, December 2001
Not to mention the two recent thwarted attacks in Dallas and Denver/NYC.
Dallas plot: »news.google.com/news/search?aq=f···las+plot
Denver/NYC Plot: »news.google.com/news/search?aq=f···nyc+plot
--
"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
reply
chronoss2009 @ 16th Oct 12:47PM:
Re: must have something to hide.
yup they do and when it comes out your all gonna be REALLY REALLY HAPPY
reply
morbo @ 16th Oct 12:47PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by Tarheels Fan :
I will along with most other Americans who agree with me...
uh, I don't think you can speak for most other Americans. Feel free to speak for yourself though. Maybe your dog and cat too, since I'm feeling generous.
reply
woody7 @ 16th Oct 12:52PM:
Re: hmmm.....
I can't show you proof that my rights were violated, because it is being suppressed. But what is known is that the "telcos" did in fact violate "my" and "your" rights. I don't feel any more or less safe, I like the Israelis am going to cope with the threat, see how there is no defense against terrorism, only the ability cope, unless we live in a police state and give up our hard earned rights.The point I made about Vietnam was that we were bombarded with the same rhetoric that is being spewed now. I am not angry, but you apparently are. I didn't even mention Bush, but you did. Why is it that everything that the government does for our "safety" has to be clouded in secrecy? When I ask a question, you answer with a question, but nothing to back it up. It is obvious that we will never see eye to eye on this. Peace
--
BlooMe
reply
habya @ 16th Oct 12:56PM:
Re: bad government
Just because you inherit a fiasco doesn't mean you need to keep that fiasco going... thanks :).
reply
DrModem @ 16th Oct 01:03PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Well as long as you can quote fictional movies (RE: Colonel Jessup) I can quote real people.
I'll make one too:
Then don't die.
reply
N3OGH @ 16th Oct 01:08PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Point well taken...
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 01:24PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Thats not correct, Kerry got them back in 2004 until he lost.
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 01:20PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
wifi4milez @ 16th Oct 01:26PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by manfmmd :
I think if they posted the information that is contained in the daily briefings in every major newspaper on the front page for 2 days, a good 3/4 of this county would shit their collective pants.
Thats not true. The people who are arguing against proactively protecting this country are of the belief that sticking their heads in the sand will take care of the problem. :o
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, its someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? Its someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
reply
wifi4milez @ 16th Oct 01:28PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by lesopp :said by Tarheels Fan :
Here's something to chew on... What if he wasn't... What would you do?
They would still blame Bush and award Obama employee of the month.
Hilarious, but sad because its true.
reply
wifi4milez @ 16th Oct 01:36PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
With all the second guessing, and people realizing what a mistake it was to elect Dear Leader, I feel the following is appropriate.
reply
wifi4milez @ 16th Oct 01:41PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by DrModem :You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Sure.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. So if you are riding a train and a terrorist gets on board with a bomb, do you plan on getting up, tapping him on the shoulder, then reading him that line?? Are you under the impression that he will be so taken aback by Franklin's words that he will immediately stop his act of terror and hand himself over the police?? WOW, you truly DO live in a fantasy world....
--
"How do you tell a Communist? Well, its someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? Its someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Ronald Reagan-
»www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
reply
nasadude @ 16th Oct 01:46PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by JKM :
....
I wish you could realize your liberty without the protection afforded to you by the people who lay it on the line. ....
initially I thought you were being sarcastic, but I guess not.
regarding those who "lay it on the line", are you talking about the people who:
engage in torture?
engage in rendition?
engage in actions that violate the constitution, statutory law and international treaties?
or are you talking about the poor shmucks that are dying in combat for no apparent purpose?
oh, I forgot to add: those pieces of paper that you deride? It's not the piece of paper that needs defending, it's the ideas and concepts embodied on those pieces of paper that deserve defending at all costs. It seems clear that you have no respect for either the pieces of paper or what they represent.
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 02:38PM:
msg deleted
deleted by a moderator
reply
openbox9 @ 16th Oct 02:42PM:
Re: hmmm.....
said by DrModem :
suddenly everything from Comcast's cable footprint to warrentless wiretapping immunity lobbying docs is kept top secret because it "threatens National Security".
If this information was TS, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I doubt the information is even considered secret, but if it is, then once again we wouldn't be having this conversation. As for an "excuse", there's no need for excuses if elements of truth exist.
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 02:55PM:
Re: hmmm.....
The end does not justify the mean. We have laws and processes to protect "the people" from specific harms laid out in the constitution and other laws.
So it's a conflict of interest. One set of laws demanding protection, the other, to protect intelligence interests.
Basically it's a big can of worms whatever side of this you're on...
Who is going to watch the watcher? The govt is simply a collection of people, who have faults and their own personal agenda. Sometimes they do wrong. Covering THAT up is bad.
reply
Van @ 16th Oct 03:03PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by wifi4milez :
Great post, too bad the lib-sheeple just dont seem to grasp the reality of what the world has become. The terrorists dont care that Bush is gone, they want to kill us just as much (if not more) than before.
Agreed. Their desire has only grown because of the botched war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
While Bush set us to make us safer, he has only made the threat much worse.
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 03:03PM:
Re: Does it matter anymore?
fascism? Corporatism?
Yup, this is what I've been saying for a good long while. There is going to be a revolution some day soon. Maybe we need it?
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 03:05PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
The problem is that we now need protection from those who are supposed to be protecting us. Who is watching the watcher?
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 03:12PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
So the solution is to be a slave, to have no privacy and few rights...
That is not life, sir... That is simply living...
reply
rahvin112 @ 16th Oct 03:16PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
On the other hand our founding fathers would have NEVER tortured an enemy. Might execute them but they wouldn't have water boarded them. See our founding fathers believed in the sanctity of life and honor. Torture accomplished nothing, Bush's policies aggravated the Muslim extremists and made the chance of terrorism on US soil an even bigger risk. Al Queda's statements condemning and attacking Obama are proof that his soft diplomacy and refuting of the Bush "with us or against us" bullshit has provided dividends in reducing the risk of terrorism.
As far as the documents go, they should be provided because the Bush administration violated the law. We are a nation of law and order and no one should be above the law. I actually support the need for these aggregate taps that allow the government to search broad communications for key words, phrases and voices. The problem is I believe that such a system needs to be approved by congress and implemented in such a way as to prevent abuse. Such a wide ranging breach of privacy needs monitors, controls and systems to verify abuse and prosecute those that abuse the system. Until such a system is in place the system is illegal, the companies that participated broke the law and everyone needs to be punished.
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 03:23PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Hell no!
We need more than a two party system. I've been saying this for a very long time.
reply
jjeffeory @ 16th Oct 03:24PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
LOL. This is pretty funny.
reply
anon @ 16th Oct 04:07PM:
Privacy or Security?
Choose ONE! Unfortunately you can't have both.
reply
binded2 @ 16th Oct 10:02PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by moonpuppy :said by Tarheels Fan :
That is political pandering.
Its part of the game. What difference is it if we do it, with a couple of ER docs watching or sending their ass to a 3rd world nation to do real torture?
Of course Pelosi and Reid are calling for heads to roll. Thats throwing a bone to their base. They really don't care about it. You are talking like 3-4 admitted killers.
Again, you had people plot and kill 3000 Americans. If you are a truther, then there is no talking sense into you, but if you believe it was planned and done by the people who admitted to doing it, then you have to realize the threat is still there....
I am no truther. I do believe that pissed off Muslims did this deed and i don't think the government has the imagination nor the competence to carry out this type of operation without someone blabbing about it.
That being said, I have no problem torturing people who do not believe in rights for others of a different religion.
What bothers me is Pelosi knew about the torture and said nothing until after Obama was in office and then denied she heard it. Pure political pandering and yet, most people don't see it. I'll bet that if another attack does happen, they will still blame Bush.
Sometimes, I feel like we need an IQ test to vote.
bush is a retard and had no fucking bussiness being in office any ways he was nothing but a puppet and did what he was told to do like he was suppost to do
what we need to do is find out who was pullin that dicks strings
reply
binded2 @ 16th Oct 04:24PM:
sick and tired of this bull
why must se be subjected to the same stories over and over again.
as for the delays they need to start fining people or str8 locking mother fuckers up untill the docs are released
including the pres if need be hes been ordered by a us fed judge to release these files
if this was any one else they would be locked up
if it was me i would be locked up
if it was a company they would be fined every day till they compiled
get with the fucking program
reply
zachary1 @ 16th Oct 04:44PM:
Re: must have something to hide.
like Manitowoc, Wisconsin and sundry one-horse towns.
reply
zachary1 @ 16th Oct 04:49PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Franklin and Jefferson would faint if they knew the shit that goes on today.
reply
zachary1 @ 16th Oct 04:51PM:
Re: Didn't this guy promise a more transparent government?
Pennies in your pocket. Change you can believe in.
reply
amigo_boy @ 16th Oct 05:05PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by jjeffeory :
Hell no!
We need more than a two party system. I've been saying this for a very long time.
Never gonna happen without election runoffs. And, that's never going to happen because it would be too expensive. Or, too complicated with rank-order ballots. (People can't even punch out a pre-perforrated hole, let alone choose their 1st through nth choices.).
I wish we had a system to promote a plurality of parties. Only because I believe the result would be essentially the same, and demonstrate that the existing system isn't as bad as some people assert. I think some people just need to blame reality on something. The two-party system is the boogieman.
Personally, I think a parliamentary (coalition) system would be more feasible than trying to have a plurality of parties within our congressional system.
Mark
reply
amigo_boy @ 16th Oct 05:15PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by nasadude :
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Those qualifiers mean Franklin believed there were unessential liberties, and permanent safety. That it could be reasonable to trade increasingly essential liberties for increasingly permanent safety.
And, guess what? That's exactly what the founding generation did in 1789 when they ditched the relatively libertarian "Articles of Confederation" for the relatively *massive* federal government.
The founding generation wanted larger, more efficient, effective and remote government like no other generation since (except, perhaps the Civil War generation). And, they wanted it just 12 years after attaining independence. In other words, they couldn't even foresee their own social needs just 12 years later!
Every generation since has faced the same calculus. Balancing collective versus individual needs. How improving the collective's condition can improve the individual's. Whether ideology is paramount over reality.
BTW: The funny thing about people quoting Franklin (to support absolute principles) is that just 4-5 years prior to the Revolution, Franklin praised King George and criticized Wilkes's supporters. Wilkes was jailed by the King for political reasons, and elected 3 times from prison. The very kind of oppression that the Founders rebelled against.
Franklin (like many humans) was an opportunist and his ideology was based upon who buttered his bread.
Mark
reply
amigo_boy @ 16th Oct 05:17PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by DrModem :You can go on quoting Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but quotes don't save lives.
Sure.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. See my response to the misuse of Franklin's quote.
reply
amigo_boy @ 16th Oct 05:25PM:
Re: Bribe!!!
said by openbox9 :
I believe there is a larger reason to prevent the release of these documents.
I think it has something to do with the year-long period before AG Ashcroft was replaced by Gonzales. Comey's testimony to Congress said Ashcroft refused to re-certify something, and there was a big squabble about it while Ashcroft underwent surgery. Comey said he was told it was certified anyway. A year later Gonzales replaced Ashcroft.
My guess is that Bush certified it himself. And, both he and Obama want to avoid the legal/constitutional question of whether 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) is limited exclusively (literally) to the Attorney General. Or, if it's a broader recognition of power residing in the Executive branch (and, since the AG is subordinate to the Executive, it's implied that the Executive can certify warrantless surveillance.).
Or, it may not be that complicated. Obama (now holding the Executive office) may have a fiduciary duty to protect that office and its powers. Make it as difficult as possible for political activists to undermine the office's authority.
Make no mistake, the anti-surveillance, pro-civil suit group are just political activists who are trying to accomplish through the judicial system what they couldn't accomplish through the political system.
Mark
reply
nasadude @ 16th Oct 05:43PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by amigo_boy :
Those qualifiers mean Franklin believed there were unessential liberties, and permanent safety.
...
you have absolutely no clue if that's what Franklin believed. sounds more like your interpretation for purposes of argument.
I'll grant that he probably believed there were unessential liberties; when he used the phrase "essential liberties", I'm guessing he was referring to those liberties enumerated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
I'm also guessing Franklin was probably too smart to believe in permanent safety, but I have no idea.
reply
amigo_boy @ 16th Oct 06:00PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by nasadude :
I'll grant that he probably believed there were unessential liberties; when he used the phrase "essential liberties", I'm guessing he was referring to those liberties enumerated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
This is the problem with people quoting revolutionary rhetoric out of context.
What you quoted was said in 1755, and republished in 1775 -- a full 34 (and 14) years before the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Mark
reply
S_engineer @ 17th Oct 12:53AM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house!
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!
reply
K2NNJ @ 17th Oct 02:31AM:
Re: must have something to hide.
The government whoever is President has a constitutional duty to protect the citizens of the United States.
If disclosing these documents jeopardizes that duty, then the documents should not be released. Even if a federal judge says so. BO should exercise executive privilege to perclude these documents from being disclosed in the public and ultimately in the hands of our enemies.
I am by no means a supporter of BO and I did not vote for him. But in this narrow instance I agree.
There are plenty of other areas where the administration needs to have transparency, like where our tax dollars are being spent.
reply
Z80 @ 17th Oct 06:57AM:
Re: Chicago pay to play?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Hope wasn't in 2008, it's in 2010.
reply
GhostDoggy @ 17th Oct 09:22AM:
He's a closet republican
And he bows to those that pull his puppet strings.
reply
chronoss2009 @ 17th Oct 12:08PM:
Re: must have something to hide.
yea form the corupt , form the thieving they do , from the lies , the cheating, the stupid laws they make to screw you all more.
YUP THATS PROTECTION WE NEED
reply
chronoss2009 @ 17th Oct 12:09PM:
Re: Gov't involvement in business opens Pandora's Box
yea thats why they have record unemployment and need
a COMMUNIST COUNTRY to prop them up financially
YEA FRAKING COMMIES
and how you explain the riaa lawyers and joe bidden as your vice president. Yaaaa o.....k
reply
FastiBook @ 17th Oct 04:38PM:
Large fallout?
Perhaps they are hesitant to release the data because of a possible large fallout that would leave the country in political shambles...
- A
--
LETS GO METS!
reply
chronoss2009 @ 17th Oct 11:34PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
why do yo uhave to quote someone in an army are they some how important or somehting more so then real people? Maybe instead a quoting people that KILL others for a living go get a doctors opinion or maybe a nurse OR maybe some people off the street.
AND if i get soooo OLD that i ramble on like that colonel please do shoot me
reply
chronoss2009 @ 17th Oct 11:35PM:
CHange in HIS pocket
thats what i said after i found out biden was his Vice president
reply
floydb_1982 @ 18th Oct 05:54PM:
Here is what we get by electing Obama
Here is what we get by electing Obama.
reply
geeknik @ 18th Oct 09:46PM:
So...
So this must be all of that hope and change and yes we can bullshit that they harped on for months and months leading up the election. I hope those people who voted for this moron are happy with themselves.
reply
knightmb @ 18th Oct 10:37PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
said by wifi4milez :With all the second guessing, and people realizing what a mistake it was to elect Dear Leader, I feel the following is appropriate.
--
Fight Insight Ready (Was NebuAD) and the like:
Click Here to pollute their data
 Nope |
reply
FastiBook @ 19th Oct 04:31PM:
Re: Here is what we get by electing Obama
Oh yes, war in iraq ending, gitmo closing, funding for public transportation, all evillll eevilllllllllllllll!
- A
--
LETS GO METS!
reply
james @ 6th Nov 06:42PM:
Re: Stop living in a fantasy world...
Yes, and then he was arrested. Maybe you missed the point of the movie?
reply
Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2009 silver matrix LLC