Pittsburgh, Verizon Haggling Over FiOS - City close to signing franchise deal, but wants a few perks first...
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Pittsburgh, Verizon Haggling Over FiOS
City close to signing franchise deal, but wants a few perks first...
10:29AM Tuesday Sep 01 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · competition · business · alternatives · bandwidth · cable · telco · consumers · Verizon FIOS
While Verizon's been busy selling more rural, unprofitable markets, they've been on a bit of a tear lately signing citywide FiOS franchise agreements with major east coast cities, including New York City, Washington DC and Philadelphia. Verizon's spent most of the summer trying to get Pittsburgh to sign off on a similar deal that would require the telco to wire the entire city with FiOS within six years (see their Pittsburgh sales pitch). If the deal's like the others, it contains provisions allowing Verizon to wiggle or buy their way out of obligations late in the deal's lifespan. The city council appears to have been a little tougher than in other cities, and has required the telco open a fairly small local support center before signing off on the deal.

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cableties @ 1st Sep 09:26AM:
Dear Verizon,

We offer a 4 year contract, subject to Pittsburgh's approval, that mandates no change of channels, no increase in package pricing, tiers, residual of .05% of advertising and another 2% annually of all income related to FioS marketing.
Finally, no "cherry picking" of neighborhoods. All or none.
In return, we promise not to have the Pittsburgh WaterWorks dig up any of your fiber.
:p
--
Splat
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mrkevin @ 1st Sep 10:26AM:
Why?

I guess I will never understand this.
Why does the city need to be involved? Just to muck everything up? Isn't Verizon a private (for profit) company? and we get the municipal government involved, why?
I say if a city wants to be involved, give it to them. Let the city install/maintain/upgrade the fiber network. it can be City of Pittsburgh Telephone and Data.

The city will make out, Verizon will make out OK too. It's just that it always seems to be the end user that gets the shaft at the end.
--
An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
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cdru @ 1st Sep 10:36AM:
Re: Dear Verizon,

said by cableties :

that mandates no change of channels... tiers
No bitching, moaning, or groaning when the rest of the serviced areas get new channels or faster speeds, but you don't.

residual of .05% of advertising and another 2% annually of all income related to FioS marketing.
You realize that they would just increase advertising rates .05-2.05% so their net income stays the same, but advertisers would be paying more...translating to consumers just paying more.

In return, we promise not to have the Pittsburgh WaterWorks dig up any of your fiber.
Don't promise things that can't be delivered. Accidents always happen.
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nasadude @ 1st Sep 10:38AM:
Re: Why?

because Verizon wants to use rights of way that the city owns and it's usually required for business to get a permit or some sort of sanction from the city to operate a business within it's borders.

even "free market" doesn't mean a business can do whatever it wants wherever it wants. business must follow the regulations established by the jurisdiction for doing business there.
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Mike @ 1st Sep 10:48AM:
Re: Why?

The corrupt little orgy that is city council and the mayor's office wants their hand in everyone's pocket that has a piece of change in it.

The city is so cash strapped that virtually everything that happens is regulated and taxed on a local level.

"The City charges Comcast a franchise fee to use the public rights-of-way for private enterprise. The franchise fee is five percent of Comcast's gross revenue. Under Federal law, cable companies are permitted to pass this fee on to cable subscribers and so it is charged on monthly cable bills.

The City deposits the revenues from the franchise fee into the General Fund, which is utilized to pay for City services, such as Police and Fire protection; these costs would otherwise be paid by taxpayer dollars."

No one really likes Comcast in the city. If Verizon has the call center capability for it - they can get 10,000 new subscribers a day.
--
"If something about the human body disgusts you, complain to the manufacturer" - Lenny Bruce
What this country needs is a good five dollar plasma weapon.
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Killa200 @ 1st Sep 11:24AM:
Re: Why?

if that 5% was national and not local to the Pittsburgh area i would tell the city council they could blow off and do without.
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N3OGH @ 1st Sep 11:37AM:
Re: Why?

said by mrkevin :

I say if a city wants to be involved, give it to them. Let the city install/maintain/upgrade the fiber network. it can be City of Pittsburgh Telephone and Data.
Yeah, and with the way Pittsburgh (and Philly) is run, you would end up with 2 tin cans and a string that costs you $500 a month.
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
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Pullo @ 1st Sep 11:39AM:
Re: Why?

The 5% is statewide in Pennsylvania, actually it's UP TO 5% that the local authority is allowed to charge as a franchise fee.
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chimera @ 1st Sep 11:49AM:
Re: Why?

I would hardly call this corrupt. Verizon is laying cables across public land which the city owns. When you build something on someone else's land you expect to either pay them rent or have to reach some other agreement with them.
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mrkevin @ 1st Sep 12:13PM:
Re: Why?

said by nasadude :

because Verizon wants to use rights of way that the city owns and it's usually required for business to get a permit or some sort of sanction from the city to operate a business within it's borders.

even "free market" doesn't mean a business can do whatever it wants wherever it wants. business must follow the regulations established by the jurisdiction for doing business there.
This would be fine if it applied to all businesses.
but this seems a little more than just getting right to work permits or complying with regulations within the cities right of way.

required the telco open a fairly small local support center before signing off on the deal.
Now city councils can dictate everyday company decisions?
--
An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
reply
EPS @ 1st Sep 12:15PM:
Re: Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe land use isn't the issue, as Verizon has the old rights inherited from Bell of Pennsylvania- the fiber deployment counts as an "upgrade" to the fiber network.

Instead, the issue is with regards to pay-TV franchises.
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ieolus @ 1st Sep 01:30PM:
Re: Why?

Since when is a corporation a holy instrument of G-d? Of course it has to get permission from the municipality it is wanting to do business in.

And if that municipality tells it to jump, the corporation should ask 'how high'? That is, if they want to do business there.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
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mrkevin @ 1st Sep 02:47PM:
Re: Why?

said by ieolus :

Since when is a corporation a holy instrument of G-d? Of course it has to get permission from the municipality it is wanting to do business in.

And if that municipality tells it to jump, the corporation should ask 'how high'? That is, if they want to do business there.
Since when is the municipality the instrument of God?
Is the municipality acting in the best interests of the citizenry?

Requiring businesses to jump through ridiculous hoops serves no real purpose to those who would benefit from better service.

--
An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 1st Sep 05:55PM:
Re: Why?

no one? I find that hard to believe. People hate VZ more than they do the cable companies. After all VZ is the ones that STOLE the money from PA NOT Comcast. And Comcast also KEEPS local jobs instead of off shoring them like VZ does.
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OSUGoose @ 1st Sep 05:56PM:
Re: Dear Verizon,

n return, we promise not to have the Pittsburgh WaterWorks DELIBERATELY dig up any of your fiber.

BETTER? It is da berg ya know, shit "can" happen if u piss off the right people.
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OSUGoose @ 1st Sep 05:59PM:
Re: Why?

Ooo, Ooo. tell me where your city is that operates like that. I'll open up my ALL NUDE titty bar across the street from the local church, thats also next to the elementary school, and when the church and the parents rase a fuss about u, i can quote you "and we get the municipal government involved, why? " oh wait, thats right we live in a civilized society with laws and zoning and health codes.

/end sarcasm
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OSUGoose @ 1st Sep 06:02PM:
Re: Why?

required the telco open a fairly small local support center before signing off on the deal.
Now city councils can dictate everyday company decisions?


Whats wrong with ensuring a local presence when the traditional billing fuckups happen, gotta give granny someplace to come smash a monitor at.
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tmc8080 @ 1st Sep 07:00PM:
Wiggle THIS!

Any municipality Verizon doesn't want to serve, Verizon can NOT sell the network.. what WILL happen is the municipality at THEIR OPTION can either: A. Open the market to any an all bidders. B. Create a MUNICIPAL utility with the goal of serving 100% of residents with a market product that MATCHES OR SURPASSES FIOS service/deployment in external municipalities. C. Create a cable company as opposed to a telco with the same idea-- until now most municipal providers have had a TELCO model of providing service.. well, if the goal is to serve LOW INCOME areas... then a cableco model may serve those interests better (then again, maybe not.. all depends on the situation).

Verizon MUST maintain the copper network until such time that a replacement competitor is found, then they can begin ripping down their copper as their footprint becomes served by the new provider. The likes of Fairpoint isn't a replacement, but a broken down clunker of a company that will be bankrupt before the next 4 years.
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wev567 @ 1st Sep 09:16PM:
Re: Wiggle THIS!

said by tmc8080 :

The likes of Fairpoint isn't a replacement, but a broken down clunker of a company that will be bankrupt before the next 4 years.
So who do you think is a suitable "replacement"? And which one of those companies wants to do it?
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Mike @ 1st Sep 09:49PM:
Re: Why?

The quality of services, customer service quality, and hyper-aggressive over marketing has made Comcast a very bad word in this town.
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patcat88 @ 2nd Sep 12:34AM:
Re: Dear Verizon,

said by OSUGoose :

n return, we promise not to have the Pittsburgh WaterWorks DELIBERATELY dig up any of your fiber.

BETTER? It is da berg ya know, shit "can" happen if u piss off the right people.
Maybe you forgot the party that cuts the line pays for repairs aslong as the line was marked on the ground (spray paint).
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OSUGoose @ 2nd Sep 12:45AM:
Re: Dear Verizon,

Didn't forget it. Do you realize how many "abandoned" and un-maped facilities get dug up every day? Even if you get the facilities marked, its still possible to hit some in unmarked, or OK areas, as they mark here when nothing is below.

I've been on the receiving end of a poor locate job. Guy wasn't going to mark my gas line, because and i quote "they wont be digging that deep" So when my house blows up, bc the contractor AT&T sends out to burry my Phone Drop, hits my gas line that you failed to mark, i can sue you right? Needless to say he grudgingly marked it, I would rather the facilities be known and thus able to plan the route of any digging/plowing better, vs being unknown and items dug up, like what happened to my neighbors phone line that the same guy failed to "locate" and accordingly was dug up and severed while burring mine.

Thats why they say SHIT HAPPENS
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patcat88 @ 2nd Sep 12:58AM:
Re: Dear Verizon,

said by OSUGoose :

I've been on the receiving end of a poor locate job. Guy wasn't going to mark my gas line, because and i quote "they wont be digging that deep" So when my house blows up, bc the contractor AT&T sends out to burry my Phone Drop, hits my gas line that you failed to mark, i can sue you right? Needless to say he grudgingly marked it, I would rather the facilities be known and thus able to plan the route of any digging/plowing better, vs being unknown and items dug up, like what happened to my neighbors phone line that the same guy failed to "locate" and accordingly was dug up and severed while burring mine.

Thats why they say SHIT HAPPENS
You just got a new house and a $1 million in punative damages if they blow up your house. Remember to wear the neckbrace in court.
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rody_44 @ 2nd Sep 08:56AM:
Re: Wiggle THIS!

Nobody at this point, after all we paid verizon 15 years ago to run fiber. Now its verizons time to stand up and do what we paid them to do.
reply
FastiBook @ 2nd Sep 10:36AM:
Pennsylvania fiber...

10 years late and less affluent areas bypassed.

Let the lawsuits begin, please?

- A
--
LETS GO METS!
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kleinml @ 11th Sep 08:59AM:
Re: Why?

Fiber only counts as an Upgrade if you replace the copper and string the fiber to serve everyone that copper formerely served. Even then Verizon would need permission from each and every home owner and business to put them on fiber because the fiber requires an on site power supply. And becuase they are a LEC service provider they need PUC permission to change the delivery method. So No its not just a simple upgrade.
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magjen @ 21st Sep 12:16PM:
FiOS TV can now be ordered in some parts of Pittsburgh city

I live in city of Pittsburgh, Overbrook area (412 881) and I was able TODAY to place an order for FiOS TV, with an install date of tomorrow. I was surprised, because I just happened to luck out that I called for something else, and they told me they were taking orders, starting today.
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UncleDirtNap @ 29th Sep 10:05AM:
Re: FiOS TV can now be ordered in some parts of Pittsburgh city

A small number of city residents have been able to get FIOS TV for some time because it's not where the customer lives that is the issue it's where the CO serving the customer is located that matters. Like some in the Point Breeze area of the city whose phone services comes out of a CO located in Wilkinsburg, your service is coming out of a location outside the city.
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magjen @ 30th Sep 09:29AM:
Re: FiOS TV can now be ordered in some parts of Pittsburgh city

No, that's not true - Vz did not provide TV if you lived in the city, even if you were wired for it. It IS where the customer lives. Yes, my exchange is split between a suburb and the city, and when Vz wired the CO, they wired everyone, but they were not offering TV to the city until the agreement was signed. Half of my street is suburb, and my half is city. As of last year the suburban part of the street was offered TV, but we were not. In those parts of the city where the CO also serves a suburban area, those city residents were able to get TV starting last week, but not before.
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UncleDirtNap @ 1st Oct 10:00AM:
Re: FiOS TV can now be ordered in some parts of Pittsburgh city

"No, that's not true - Vz did not provide TV if you lived in the city, even if you were wired for it. It IS where the customer lives."

Sorry, but I know for fact that several of my friends who are city residents, living in Point Breeze and get their service out of the Wilkinsburg CO have had FIOS TV since it became available over a year ago...

And it pisses off other friends who live just a few blocks up and are serviced out of the Squirrel Hill CO located at Forward and Murray and still don't even have FIOS Internet because of lack of space for new equipment issues that have prevented Squirrel Hill from being wire at all.

I'm also curious how Verizon has agreed to have the whole city wired within six years since to the best of my knowledge the lack of expansion space for new equipment at Forward and Murray still hasn't been resolved ... and may never be.

If your CO is located in one of the suburban south neighborhoods you've probably been able to get the TV service for awhile, but it just wasn't being advertised to you because you're a city resident; like my Point Breeze friends who didn't know about it until they saw what I was getting and made some phone calls.
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