The Metered Billing Fight Is About To Get Ugly - Think tanks, astroturfers and policy flaks fire up unreality engines....
Links: home · search · speed test · login · more ·

The Metered Billing Fight Is About To Get Ugly
Think tanks, astroturfers and policy flaks fire up unreality engines....
01:41PM Friday Jun 19 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · prices · Video · competition · business · Op/Ed · legislation · Politics · content · consumers
Tipped by Dampier
A new bill aimed at derailing unreasonable efforts at per-byte broadband billing faces a steep uphill climb in DC, where AT&T, Verizon and Comcast lobbyists usually get what they want -- particularly if they're working together. Time Warner Cable's effort to hoist low caps and metered billing upon consumers was a sloppy affair, and the public backlash created a unique instance where genuine consumer activism changed the course of a giant corporation.

But that victory was against one company who made a significant number of missteps. With the threat of regulation, the alarm bells have sounded at every giant ISP eager to ditch flat-rate pricing and experiment with billing by the byte. As such, you can expect the gloves to come off and the rhetoric to heat up. How hot? Think of the obnoxious rhetoric surrounding the network neutrality debate circa 2006, and triple it.

This next push for metered billing will be a multi-million dollar effort, utilizing the full arsenal of incumbent public policy relations. That of course means heavy use of lobbyists, paid PR flaks, pseudo-scientific think tanks and even artificial consumer advocacy groups. Collectively, they'll spend the next year or two trying to convince the public and daft lawmakers that metered billing is patriotic, good for children and puppies, and results in vast oceans of innovation pouring out wistfully upon a dreamy sea of competitive innovation.

As Phillip Dampier of Stop The Cap notes, the push began in earnest this week, with a flood of astroturfers and paid policy goofs flooding Internet message boards with the gospel of their handlers. PR departments fired up their engines as well, AT&T insisting to us that their metered billing trials in Reno and Beaumont, Texas are really about making sure that "grandma" gets a fair shake. The American Cable Association's feigned empathy was equally noxious in a statement pretending metered billing is about giving users "control:"
"Consumption-based billing plans will give consumers the ultimate control over how much they spend each month for their Internet access. Rep. Massa's bill would have a chilling effect on broadband operators offering these types of consumer-friendly options. Internet usage payment models will allow broadband providers to better manage their networks by imposing higher costs on the heaviest users who often are the ones responsible for slowing speeds for all users on the Internet."
Of course killing flat-rate pricing gives control -- to carriers worried about an uncertain future. The push for metered billing comes from investors who are interested in charging more money for the same service at a time when broadband delivery costs are dropping. The push comes from executives who are interested in protecting TV revenues from Internet video by nickel and diming the households of tomorrow with overage fees as high as 2,000% over cost. That truth doesn't sell, so it has to be dressed up under the guise of helping grandma.

However well intentioned, regulation limiting pricing models is never going to get past incumbent lobbyists and a well-lobbied Congress. If government is going to get involved, they're better served by taking actions that foster competition. As we've seen with Cablevision and Verizon's reluctance to impose caps or meters, and Time Warner's reluctance to trial meters in FiOS markets, competition is kind of like DEET for dumb, self-serving telecom ideas. The threat of customer defection will keep carriers on their best behavior.

Related:
  1. Tuesday Evening Links
  2. Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
  3. Is Verizon Considering Metered Billing?
  4. Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
  5. Comcast Can Officially Get Even More Gigantic
  6. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  7. Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
  8. AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
Links: New Topic
Forums »
page: 1 · 2
S_engineer @ 19th Jun 01:21PM:
Liars

If Att wanted to give "grandma" her fair shake, then they'd lower the prices for the measly 50MB of usage that "grandma" uses per month.

This is about setting the precedent of a low cap before even more Video is introduced to the Web. This is a money grab, plain and simple!
I think it's high time congress dragged these clowns to the hill and interogated them on where all of the money for upgrades through tax incentives has gone. They did it to AIG, and GM, they should now do it to TW, and the Death Star. Remember the 40 mbps to the home in 10 from the Clinton years.
If they don't like the idea of a PUC regulating them then hit them with this. They redefine a cap as cost since it has obvious pricing implications, with the regulating body being split with the FCC and IRS. Wouldn't that be a fun audit!
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!

reply
digitalfreak @ 19th Jun 01:26PM:
Re: Liars

We need caps to avoid the Internet Apocalypse! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
reply
Eat Me @ 19th Jun 01:27PM:
Has to be all or nothing

This "ISPs with more than 2 million subscribers" won't fly. It has to apply to ALL ISPs otherwise the big guys will cry about unfair competition.

Otherwise just keep the status quo.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 01:37PM:
Re: Liars

Yeah, lets take tw's or att's $40(or closest in price) package. If right now I were to pay $40 for no cap and so was 'grandma' and they put a 40GB cap and STILL kept it at $40 how does that make grandma pay less if she only uses 500MB? If that was what they really wanted they would make a real metered billing aka PAYG plan. For like 20/5 for $10 and if 1GB cost them $0.10 we would pay $0.20. I support this bill because it stops us from getting price gouged and skrewed. As far as I know it does not stop metered billing just makes them not be able to gouge us, and that is good. If it does make metering illegal then that part needs to go the Gov should not be able to say that, they should be able to say they cannot gouge/skrew us. And they can and I think they should.
reply
baineschile @ 19th Jun 01:39PM:
Cap or Per Byte

They have to decide if there is going to be a cap with overagres, or just a speed/consumption model.

Either way, these companies that want to meter have more money than any of us, so its probably a lost cause if they have a one track mind.

Either way, I hope everything stays reasonable (250gig comcast cap, i personally think is more than enough), and they evalutate it annually.
reply
Omega @ 19th Jun 01:42PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

I agree, although I don't like caps, I can tolerate reasonable ones. 250GB/month is reasonable, imo. at least for now. Once HD content becomes more available, they will need to increase the cap.
--
Whats smells like blue?

reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 01:43PM:
Competition would stop this.

Look at FiOS and cable vision areas. They have good competition CV even added a 101/15 package to keep people from going to FiOS and FiOS is getting new packages out 10/2 to 15/5 and 20/5 to 25/15. But 3 or more ISPs per area would be best IMHO.

"If government is going to get involved, they're better served by taking actions that foster competition. As we've seen with Cablevision and Verizon's reluctance to impose caps or meters, and Time Warner's reluctance to trial meters in FiOS markets, competition is kind of like DEET for dumb, self-serving telecom ideas. The threat of customer defection will keep carriers on their best behavior."
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 01:44PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

"Once HD content becomes more available, they will need to increase the cap." They won't. That is one of the reason they stared capping. Competition is what we need.
reply
tdouglas22 @ 19th Jun 01:45PM:
So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

We can't just sit by and let this go through. We have to do something to get it across that this is NOT good for the customers and does nothing to help us. Ideas, anybody? I'm all eyes and ears.
reply
Broken Back @ 19th Jun 01:51PM:
Uverse

Your TV Service with ATT just got out of hand with metered billing.
--
Over The Hill

reply
sbrook @ 19th Jun 01:53PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Competition isn't the answer these days. The modern idea of competition is "If they can get away with it, then so can we". Now granted, the competitor may not push the price per byte quite so high, but they'll come close, or offer some other scheme to temporarily discount the bill.

The competitive market is no longer what we knew it to be or expect it to be. Today it's all about making money for shareholders. It really started collapsing in the telecoms industry with the arrival of the 3rd party long distance companies in the US (like Sprint and MCI and Williams Telecom). They tried to be competitive, but weren't competitive enough that people were flocking to leave Ma Bell/AT&T. So, they went to the wall.

Now with the changing face of personal communication with VoIP, Digital Phone and Cell phones, the cost to be competitive in the traditional sense is too high for nervous investors after the hitech bubble burst in the early part of the decade.

Now it's all about making money for the shareholders, and the way you do that is to charge what the market will bear, even if it's ridiculous.

There's far more fundamental things at work here than competition in the marketplace. So, laws and regulation to fix it won't work until we have a far more stable economy and people are happy to see their dividend cheques come in, instead of relying on the increasing value of equities.
reply
k1ll3rdr4g0n @ 19th Jun 01:59PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

said by tdouglas22 :

We can't just sit by and let this go through. We have to do something to get it across that this is NOT good for the customers and does nothing to help us. Ideas, anybody? I'm all eyes and ears.
Start protesting at COs and office buildings of the ISPs. Make sure cars passing by know what you are protesting though.
reply
Matt @ 19th Jun 02:07PM:
Re: Liars

said by digitalfreak :

We need caps to avoid the Internet Apocalypse! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Don't worry, AT&T and Time Warner et al will happily sell you their Apocalypse add-on package for the ultra low price of $9.99 a month.
reply
battleop @ 19th Jun 02:16PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

Just like they won't increase throughput? It's unreasonable to think they won't increase caps as time goes along.
reply
funchords @ 19th Jun 02:21PM:
Remember CompuServe?

CompuServe - late 1980s-early 1990s
$6.00/hour at 300 baud
$12.50/hour at 1200/2400 baud

Now they knew how to meter!

Why on Earth would we want to go back to that?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL

reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:22PM:
I don't get it...

If my neighbor is downloading 500 GB per month and I am downloading 1GB per month, why shouldn't he/she pay a lot more than I do? What does the carriers cost have to do with anything? What the decide to charge, in a capitalistic system, is based on what the market will bear. People pay markups for everything and if a company drives their price up above the demand, they will fail...simple economics.

What am I missing?
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
TKJunkMail @ 19th Jun 02:23PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

said by tdouglas22 :

We can't just sit by and let this go through. We have to do something to get it across that this is NOT good for the customers and does nothing to help us. Ideas, anybody? I'm all eyes and ears.
You can call, write, fax those who make policy and those who carry it out. Here are some links that lets you find these people:

»whorunsgov.com/

»whorunsgov.com/Congress/Leadership

»whorunsgov.com/hill_staff

»whorunsgov.com/administration_officials

»www.fcc.gov/contacts.html
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

reply
major marco @ 19th Jun 02:26PM:
Re: Liars

said by S_engineer :

I think it's high time congress dragged these clowns to the hill and interogated them on where all of the money for upgrades through tax incentives has gone. They did it to AIG, and GM, they should now do it to TW, and the Death Star.
I would hardly call this particular event you refer to as "dragging." More like rolling out the red carpet and throwing roses at their feet. These chumpstains from AIG et al. got the royal treatment. Never in a million years would I ever refer to it as an "interrogation." More like Congre$$ional lickspittles verbally fellating their constituency.
--
The Toll

Tracking Lord Stanley

reply
spamd @ 19th Jun 02:27PM:
The future of the internet.

Anyone here who thinks that metered billing is not going to happen is in for a rude awakening. History has proven that big business always gets what they want in the end. I expect to see metered billing used by all ISP's in late 2010 if not later that the end of 2011. If you notice that all wireless ISP's all ready do have this in place. Just look at the latest headlines.

»Oh AT&T Tethering 'Sources,' You Taunt Us

»gigaom.com/2009/06/18/broadband-···by-2011/

»Verizon Unveils Global Broadband 3G Modem

»Lawmaker Unveils Anti-Metered Billing Law

»Higher Prices, Recession Can't Stop Broadband Growth
--
When everything is coming your way, you are in the wrong lane.

reply
tdouglas22 @ 19th Jun 02:27PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

Thank you. I suggest written letters as well as emails.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 02:29PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

I disagree. If an ISP with no cap moved into an area where TW was testing metered billing do you think the costumers would stay with tw? Would TW keep testing there? I don't think so, why else would TW not test in areas with FiOS.

'"If they can get away with it, then so can we".'

A lot do take that idea but not all. AOL used metered billing but competition with un-metered billing stopped them.

"Now it's all about making money for the shareholders"

Look at the places where there are more than one ISP and one has a cap/metered billing and one does not, a lot of people move to the no uncapped one. Would they(stock holders) rather have $80-ish a month from 100 people or $50 a month from 200 people?
reply
major marco @ 19th Jun 02:29PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

What am I missing?
A hell of a lot if you believe that you're somehow subsidizing others usage and/or if you ever think you're going to get a break on your bill because you "only" download email and check the weather.
reply
woodward @ 19th Jun 02:31PM:
Re: I don't get it...

You tapped into the core argument.

Compare it to TV. Should your cable bill be lower than someone who watches TV more than you do?

How about phone? Should your local phone service cost less because you only make a couple of calls a day than it is for someone who's on the phone constantly?

It happened to dial-up service in the mid 90s. Should they charge per minute like long distance, or flat rate like local?

At crucial historical junctures, those industries confronted this core argument, and decided on flat rate billing for use.

Broadband service is at that same juncture now.
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:33PM:
Re: I don't get it...

So then people truly believe that a company doesn't have a right to charge someone who downloads 100x more than me, more than I pay? Isn't this a free market economy?
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:35PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Got it woodward...thanks! I just wanted to make sure I am not missing anything. I suppose what bothers me is the posters who make it seem like this is a "legal" issue. This is a free market economy and barring any collusion between providers or a monopoly, they certainly have a right to move that direction if they want to. People forget we all get a vote...with our wallet. It's just that when that time comes, people can't live without their creature comforts and don't close the wallet.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
major marco @ 19th Jun 02:35PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

Isn't this a free market economy?
LMAO - I have a bridge to sell you. Contact me offline and we'll talk about what an incredible deal I have for you!
reply
spamd @ 19th Jun 02:37PM:
Re: The future of the internet.

Well I for one can see broadband treated like the oil market. Just like any other consumed commodity like oil, natural gas, electricity, water. If big business could charge for the air we breathe I am sure they will find a way. Hopefully I will be long dead by the time that happens.
--
When everything is coming your way, you are in the wrong lane.

reply
iansltx @ 19th Jun 02:37PM:
Re: I don't get it...

The market has economies of scale and barriers to entry. It's not easy to get the eeded infrastructure (owned by telcos in most places) to start an ISP with 15 Mbps down and 2 up. Plus you have franchise crap to deal with, ROWs, etc.

Also, I'd be fine with people who use less paying less. Key word here: LESS. When I'm not home my family uses less than 10GB of data per month, as far as I've seen from DD-WRT graphs. It'd be lovely if they could just pay $25 per month for internet access instead of $40.

Wait...that isn't happening. They just want to charge people like me, who will use 150GB if he can, or 500GB if allowed (online backup; residential connections are crappy for P2P), ridiculous amounts of money for service. But they still want to keep the same amount of revenue from "average" (5-15 GB per month) users. Granny Smith, who only checks her e-mail on Sundays, might get a $20 1GB package, then get $5 in overages per month since Windows has to update itself. This is on a slow plan too...

Bottom ine: metered billing is okay by me as long as it's only a 100% or so markup above cost. So 10-20 cents per GB. But if that happens I want a low monthly minimum ($15-$250) and very high or uncapped speeds (15/2 on DOCSIS 1.1, 30/5 on DOCSIS 2, 60/15 on DOCSIS 3, 100/50 on fiber, as much as the line will bar on DSL). If you're going to bill by usage, bill by usage, not by usage AND speed.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 02:38PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Well if you are paying for an uncapped connection why should you not pay the same? You may choose to use less but you are not being forced to. If it cost an ISP $10000 for a month and you pay $50 and the other guy pays $50 and so on until $12000 has been earned you each payed $50 into said $12000 the ISP still made $2000, you just choose to use less.

Same with an all you can eat buffet if I pay $8 and a guy who eats a lot more than me pays $8 and I have 3 plates of food and 2 deserts and he as 5 plates and 5 deserts I choose to use less I do not complain that he ate more but paid the same as me.

BTW the same could be said of someone who uses 500MB paying as much as you who uses a whole 1GB.
reply
hottboiinnc @ 19th Jun 02:38PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

And then you can get a generic email/letter back saying what ever they feel like saying and you can feel like your voice mattered when really the letter was deleted or shredded. :hmm:
reply
Matt @ 19th Jun 02:38PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

If my neighbor is downloading 500 GB per month and I am downloading 1GB per month, why shouldn't he/she pay a lot more than I do? What does the carriers cost have to do with anything? What the decide to charge, in a capitalistic system, is based on what the market will bear. People pay markups for everything and if a company drives their price up above the demand, they will fail...simple economics.

What am I missing?
They should pay more. However, you should also pay less. Under most proposed models, you pay what you currently are charged per month, only the heavy user pays more via overage fees. And if you use more than 1GB? Too bad, you also get popped with an overage charge.
reply
UncleDirtNap @ 19th Jun 02:39PM:
The day they move to metered billing...

... is the same day I scrap my broadband connection and go back to dial up.

If everyone else did the same they'd back track in less than a month.
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:40PM:
Re: I don't get it...

????

Go open a business. Charge whatever you want...if people don't want to pay it, you'll go out of business. Pretty simple concept. This sounds more to me like a lot of people not wanting to pay more $$, which is fine...then don't pay it and spend your money elsewere. But don't make it as if the company is doing something illegal.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
Kearnstd @ 19th Jun 02:41PM:
Re: Liars

said by Matt :

said by digitalfreak :

We need caps to avoid the Internet Apocalypse! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Don't worry, AT&T and Time Warner et al will happily sell you their Apocalypse add-on package for the ultra low price of $9.99 a month.
but also dont forget AT&T is the telephone company so they will have a 10.99 Apocalypse Processing fee and a 159.99 early termination fee with really small print stating(ETF may still be charged if Internet explodes causing unexpected end of service).
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:41PM:
Re: I don't get it...

That's fine me1212 but if a buffet decides to charge more for someone eating more, that's their right correct? And if you don't agree with it, you can eat somewhere else right?
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
Dzot @ 19th Jun 02:42PM:
Re: Liars

I thought it was for each PC connected...
reply
Matt @ 19th Jun 02:43PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

That's fine me1212 but if a buffet decides to charge more for someone eating more, that's their right correct? And if you don't agree with it, you can eat somewhere else right?
But what if you CAN'T eat somewhere else? Most people have at best, one or two choices for internet access.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 02:44PM:
Re: I don't get it...

I agree make it usage only billing not billing AND speed and a real usage based plan AKA PAYG(pay as you go. like $10 for a connection) and if 1GB cost them $0.05 then we pay $0.10, if it costs them $0.10 we pay $0.20.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 02:44PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Yes correct. But if they choose not to why should that bother me if it is I who choose to eat less?
reply
hottboiinnc @ 19th Jun 02:45PM:
Law Won't pass

This law won't pass. It will be killed at the sounds of the Feds being sued and more money being spent from the tax payers.

The feds don't have the money to take this thing to court. TWC, ATT, Comcast and the others do. Especially when combined. The court will rule Congress does NOT have the power to regulate a private network.
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:46PM:
Re: I don't get it...

I'm with you, but why do you care how much money they're making. That shouldn't enter into it. Some people pay $30,000 for a handbag that costs $10 to make. Why, because they want to spend their money on it. Base your decision on what's fair for you to spend in your own mind. If you feel it's an unfair deal, don't buy a product. If you in principle don't want to support a company who you feel is charging too much, don't purchase their product. But there are unrealistic markups on everything...but nobody seems to go into the grocery store and say "how much did this bread cost to make because if the price I am paying is xx% over cost I refuse to buy it"...they simply compare the price with other products and buy if it's worth it to them.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:47PM:
Re: I don't get it...

My point exactly...if there is either collusion or monopoly, then all bets are off. But then we get into the debate of what the competition is (e.g. sirius/XM claim that their market was not radio but that they competed with internet, tv, movies, etc). Interesting debate at the very least.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 02:48PM:
Re: Liars

said by S_engineer :

If Att wanted to give "grandma" her fair shake, then they'd lower the prices for the measly 50MB of usage that "grandma" uses per month.
As long as you realize that lowering the price paid by the low usage subscribers will dramatically increase the costs of moderate to high end subscribers. The MRC income of flat-rate billing keeps things evenly distributed today.

The low usage subscribers make up a much greater percentage of the customer base than most on this forum think.
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:50PM:
Re: I don't get it...

I don't follow this one...sorry. But thanks for the great discussion...it's a good one!!!
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 02:52PM:
Re: I don't get it...

"Most people have at best, one or two choices for internet access."

Which is what got us into this mess. Back in the day of dial-up when you could get any ISP anywhere and AOL had metered billing what happened? Competition came along with no cap/meter and took so many subscribers away from aol that they dropped the cap. If FiOS, cable vision, Uverse, comcast, TW, and *insert the rest of the cablecos/telcos/ISPs here* were available to 95%+ of America do you think we would be in the situation we are? I don't.
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:52PM:
Re: I don't get it...

OK well if someone is paying more, then by definition, I am paying less. And if that "less" is the same I am paying today, then I have a decision to make don't I?

Seems to me I could also say they are raising the prices of the biggest users but not raising mine...ok...so?

Ultimately, I don't see a problem with it, in principle that is.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
Dzot @ 19th Jun 02:54PM:
Re: I don't get it...

It's hard to vote when the only vote you have is either to go with them or go without. Especially for the ones who provide both TV and internet.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 02:57PM:
Re: I don't get it...

You're missing the issue of market power and the high barriers to entry that ISPs face. If Verizon doubles their price in an area that only they can provide service to people can either suck it up or get off the internet if there is no government intervention.

Since the big boys are price fixing against each other the same rule applies and they are smart enough not to drop prices too much and to divide up the market so they all make a killing.

If a small company wanted to get into one of these markets they would face high initial costs while setting up their network, and a Verizon executive would be happy to inform them that if they did go into this market then Verizon would drop their price and drive the upstart out of business. This behavior prevents upstarts from entering these markets, and while doing this in an overly overt manner is illegal, when done subtly enough predatory pricing is extremely difficulty to prove, and this is exactly what is going on right now. Metered billing will only make this worse unless some solid legislation is laid down to control the base price level of the market. We'll see what happens.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 02:59PM:
Re: I don't get it...

cell phone plans are sold by the minute (and that is digital data) and then they tack on a digital data plan for internet surfing
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 02:58PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Now this makes a ton of sense to me. This makes it sound like there's possibly something similar to a "monopoly" in which case all bets are off. That's a solid argument...
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
iansltx @ 19th Jun 03:00PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Here's the thng: handbags are made by tons of manufacturers. As is bread. Both these products have a low cost of entry (yes, the bread does too).

Internet on the other hand is closer to a utility. Few providers have the infrastructure in the ground, and they were given $$$ to put that stuff in the ground in many cases. Thus you end up with a government subsidized near-utility that, like phone service, may well need to be regulated due to monopoly status in some cases.

If line sharing for all wireline plant was commonplace, the bread/handbag analogy would work. Unfortunately line sharing is minimal and thus those models don't work.
reply
AlexNYC @ 19th Jun 03:00PM:
Re: I don't get it...

Not if you are the only game in town aka monopoly and people don't have a choice. Millions of users do not have a choice of ISP's. What do you tell them? Give me your arm and a leg or get off the internet?
reply
fishacura @ 19th Jun 03:05PM:
Re: I don't get it...

UNderstood. This was my point of my post and seems to be the more central argument. What threw me was the folks who didn't bring this very good point up and just talked about the cost of the vendor, what they charge, etc. which really has no bearing on the question if we're talking about a fully established market open to all competition.
--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.

reply
TKJunkMail @ 19th Jun 03:06PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

said by hottboiinnc :

And then you can get a generic email/letter back saying what ever they feel like saying and you can feel like your voice mattered when really the letter was deleted or shredded. :hmm:
Maybe. But the staffs for the congresscritters and admin officials do some statistics on the letters, faxes, emails they get. They categorize communications as pro or anti various issues and total those up. They weigh more heavily communications from those who can vote for or contribute to them. And, believe it or not, those stats carry weight. Especially if they are overwhelming in favor or against a specific policy.

I lobbied Congress for my fellow employees and my company for several years to get legal changes to Railroad Retirement(an improved replacement for Social Security system for railroad employees). It was a major battle, but persistence and money and constant contact made it happen. The letters, faxes, & calls of several hundred thousand railroad employees won out over the dogged opposition of key congressmen.

So, an organized persistent campaign can make a difference. But it isn't easy.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 03:06PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by me1212 :

A lot do take that idea but not all. AOL used metered billing but competition with un-metered billing stopped them.
No, a desire to increase revenue was what really drove AOL's unmetered option. They charged more for their "unlimited" than most people paid under their metered service offering, but psychologically it "feels" better because there are no limits.

The natural gas companies here in MN started offering 'flat-rate' options a few years ago, preying on people's perception that rising gas prices would leave them with a massive bill. The problem is people choose this plan based on trying to buy piece of mind rather than being a wise financial decision -- and that shows in the soaring profits that this program generates. In the overwhelming majority of cases people pay more, sometimes significantly more, because the pricing is structured so that the companies don't lose. See: »www.startribune.com/lifestyle/yo···166.html

If usage continues to increase by a minority of users, there are 2 paths: continue to raise rates for everyone, or come up with an acceptable method to differentially bill users based on usage.
reply
sbrook @ 19th Jun 03:07PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

They move until ISP B has received enough, then change to metered billing themselves. It's happened twice here in Canada.

Getting competition to start up now is going to be the real problem. They need to present a strong monetary case to join the fray ... and the way they're going to do that is NOT to undercut everybody else.

We've seen this again and again in the airline industry for example. Companies try to compete head to head with the big guys and end up burnt. The big guys just cut their prices for a month and the NKOTB burns.
reply
morbo @ 19th Jun 03:10PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

But don't make it as if the company is doing something illegal.
that's the entire point. these companies are trying to make it illegal to use other new, emerging services by capping at artificially low levels. basically, pricing any alternatives out of the reach of consumers. they control the pipes and now they will tell you what you can use on them!
reply
PapaMidnight @ 19th Jun 03:12PM:
Nice Blog Updates

Anyone else notice that their blog hasn't seen a single update since '06?

»www.consumers4choice.org/blog
reply
S_engineer @ 19th Jun 03:13PM:
Re: Liars

I disagree, i think that most users on this forum understand the mass populace is using only minimal amounts of bandwidth. This is the crux of the argument.
for years these companies have ignored forecasts about the exponential growth of the Internet. They were able to accomodate and oversell their userbase only because of the low usage subscribers. Few carriers decided to take the upgrade route. The rest are now taking the route of upgrading nothing at a time where bandwidth usage forecasts continue to climb. A Cap or an overage fee does not fix the technical issues that still loom. Their lack making the necessary upgrades the keep up what their own forecast were calling for are their own fault. This was clearly a case where quarterly reports became more important than the long term position that these companies needed to take.

And Major...you have a point...maybe Gitmo would be in order!

EDIT* And another thing, if there was such a bandwidth apocolyse looming, then why would these carriers line up to sign agreements with online video service ESPN360?

--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!

reply
PapaMidnight @ 19th Jun 03:16PM:
Re: Remember CompuServe?

said by funchords :

CompuServe - late 1980s-early 1990s
$6.00/hour at 300 baud
$12.50/hour at 1200/2400 baud

Now they knew how to meter!

Why on Earth would we want to go back to that?
Holy S***... Back in the day. Don't forget how EarthLink and AOL tried to pull the same crap in the early 90's.
reply
NetAdmin @ 19th Jun 03:17PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by fishacura :

What am I missing?
Going from having the ability to use the internet as freely as one wished to having to worry about counting every bit that crosses your WAN interface is what turns a lot of people off to this type of scheme. Providers had marketed unlimited so long to people that by trying to push metered billing on the consumer, people are going to start rationing their usage.

That unlimited usage system is also partly what drove explosion of content on the Net that's driven the demand for broadband. People didn't have to worry about having to pay out the nose to try out Youtube when it first came out and now look at the success that it has become. If providers clamp down on usage, people won't be willing to explore new services and new offers, killing innovation and reducing the demand for broadband.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

reply
rahvin112 @ 19th Jun 03:19PM:
Re: I don't get it...

What your failing to understand is that in all the examples woodward provided there was a regulatory framework in place that dictated that the billing would be flat rate. No telephone company was allowed to decide on flat rate vs per minute billing without the approval of the local regulatory agency. I remember very distinctly the phone companies pushing very hard for per minute billing because modem use was causing them to have to deploy more lines. The only reason the per minute billing didn't happen is the regulatory commissions didn't buy into the phone companies rhetoric. Now you turn around and say the free market can solve it without regulatory involvement while pointing at the example where regulatory involvement precluded per use billing.

We can't get the full value out of a free market where the market isn't free. Most markets in this country are either monopolies or duopolys and both behave identically. Until there is at least 3 competitors there is no price competition. A price increase by one of the duopoly is immediately followed by a price increase at the second rather than the second using the price increase as marketing point. In the current market a duopoly is the same thing as a monopoly and in such cases there is no free market to regulate things. Advocating that the market will take care of it is plain ignorance.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 03:20PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

"If usage continues to increase by a minority of users, there are 2 paths: continue to raise rates for everyone, or come up with an acceptable method to differentially bill users based on usage."

Ok well I think the majority of user will use will increase, by how much is the question. And I am not against metered billing just metered billing the way TW wants to do it. They want a low usage person to pay the same as they do now and they want a high usage person to pay a LOT more than they do now and STILL be charge based on speed too. If they really wanted a real metered billing plan it would be a pay as you go plan. Pay for what you use if 1GB cost them $0.10 we would pay $0.20 per GB. But they want us to pay like $1 per GB and if it cost them $0.10 that is a 1000% mark up.
reply
LurkerLito @ 19th Jun 03:24PM:
Just wait Grandma!

PR departments fired up their engines as well, AT&T insisting to us that their metered billing trials in Reno and Beaumont, Texas are really about making sure that "grandma" gets a fair shake.


That's a nice thing for grandma to have, just wait the the grand kids come over and give her the first $500 overage charge and let's see how expensive the original $40/month unlimited plan she has now stacks up.

Here is a great idea for stopthecap, just make a short video of a bunch of kids trying to send grandma a video of the family and have the parents stop them and tell the kids, "don't do that cause grandma will have to pay overages to receive it." :)
reply
sbrook @ 19th Jun 03:29PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

The real problem is that it's not bytes that are the chargeable entity per se. The cost of 1GB between 4pm and 10pm is a LOT higher than the cost of 1GB at 3 am!

If they're gonna charge us by the byte, then speed is an irrelevence in the charging scheme!
reply
amungus @ 19th Jun 03:32PM:
All your base

Sounds like their dream plan - bill for internet like they did/do w/phone service.

Frak this whole idea of billing per byte/megabyte/gigabyte. Nobody, not even the "grandma" wants this madness.
Market some levels of service that people want, and leave people alone to do what they wish with that connection. They should advertise that "lite" level of service more if that's what they really really think people might like... Notice how NONE of the providers advertise this much aside from the occasional "deal" on DSL which usually leads to a bigger bill than expected (they're always great about screwing up the bill in their favor somehow...)

Biggest argument against these "giant corporations" is this:
-They have steadily increased "speeds" over the years, right?
-They have steadily kept prices reasonable at the same time
-Now they're more and more upset about people using these connections... why?
---Could ISPs have simply KEPT "speeds" at whatever level (think 1.5Mbps DSL or 3Mbps cable) until they were ready for increased usage?

I call this poor planning if they want to argue about it. Every opportunity was there for planning things in a "better" way if they'd wanted to.

Instead, ISPs have continually had:
-a steady stream of money
-spent some of that on upgrades to speed/capacity/buildout/etc. and done PLENTY fine, even with "hogs" on the network. ...And probably still had enough leftover to keep buying more fast cars, boats, whatever else.

This is pure and simple greed. Nothing fancy about it. Pure and simple desire for more and more for themselves at the expense of the many "faithful" customers they've had for years and years.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 03:32PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

They could just charge the same price all the time. A flat rate per GB.
reply
rahvin112 @ 19th Jun 03:33PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Your statement assumes that carrier costs remain fixed. You need to factor in a continued drop in costs for the carriers that is halving their data costs every 2-5 years. Now if individual use is growing geometrically and base prices are dropping exponentially how does that effect pricing? Data prices are almost meaningless in the cost of broadband. The labor of maintenance of the existing plant is much more costly than the cost of the long haul data. In fact with the exponential decline in long haul data costs the cost of providing the data is becoming almost meaningless in the cost of the broadband. Your assumption of data use providing the need for price increases is a fallacy with no support in the financial outlook. The reality is that even with growing use the costs of providing the connection are still dropping. This play for per byte billing is nothing more than an attempt to prevent internet television delivery.

The ultimate scenario the carriers are trying to prevent is people purchasing TV over the internet. The continued growth of high speed connections and sites like Hulu and youtube is providing the means to kill pay television. Such a scenario would absolutely kill profit margins (Pay TV is very profitable). They are trying to head this off by raising the costs of data such that it becomes more costly to not purchase a TV plan from the carrier. This discussion of per byte billing is nothing more than companys trying to protect a business model that's not going to survive till 2020 if they don't prevent it from happening.

But hey, if you want to continue to buy into the propaganda being foisted onto the community believe the Astroturfing then feel free.
reply
en102 @ 19th Jun 03:34PM:
Re: Liars

Yup - that $9.99 /month fee requires:

TV service/phone service and...
- $200 installation fee
- the modern day equivalent of a local loop charge
- requlatory surcharge fee (cost of doing business with government)
- regulatory revovery fee (cost of meeting government requirements)
- profit recovery fee (fee charged if company isn't making enough profit off of you, or in general)
- modem rental fee
- demark fee
- electrical usage fee (gotta power those VRAD/RT/fiber nodes)
- battery replacement fee (gotta replace those batteries in the exploding VRADS)
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 03:37PM:
Re: Remember CompuServe?

Cause ISPs can price gouge make more money.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 03:43PM:
Re: The future of the internet.

Maybe, maybe not we do not know what the future holds. If they were reasonable caps maybe but the ISPs want to keep internet video usage down so they can make more tv money. The whole world may cap or the cap may die we do not know right now, all we can do is what we think is right.
reply
Skippy25 @ 19th Jun 03:43PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

Throughput is a white elephant of backend networking.

Increasing throughput to the average user will help take the load off their network theoretically as it would get the average user on the network and then off of it quicker.

If 1000 people request a 1mb file or website with 1mb of data and they get it at 1.3kbps then that is going to be "congesting" their network just the same, if not more, than those same 1000 people requesting that same information on a 10Mbps connection. Powerboost is an example of one company recognizing this and implementing something to help them.

Obviously your "abusers" which is what this is all about. Will be pegging either connection constantly for most of the time. Those are the people that need to be dealt with.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 03:45PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by NetAdmin :

said by fishacura :

What am I missing?
Going from having the ability to use the internet as freely as one wished to having to worry about counting every bit that crosses your WAN interface is what turns a lot of people off to this type of scheme. Providers had marketed unlimited so long to people that by trying to push metered billing on the consumer, people are going to start rationing their usage.

That unlimited usage system is also partly what drove explosion of content on the Net that's driven the demand for broadband. People didn't have to worry about having to pay out the nose to try out Youtube when it first came out and now look at the success that it has become. If providers clamp down on usage, people won't be willing to explore new services and new offers, killing innovation and reducing the demand for broadband.
True so true.
reply
backness @ 19th Jun 03:47PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Exactly,

Cut the middle man,

Content creator to Content viewer!
reply
Heated Man @ 19th Jun 03:55PM:
The photo here

I really wish this site would stop posting photos of this terrorist when discussing stuff on here. It is dis-respectful. Surely you guys are more creative than this?
reply
sonicmerlin @ 19th Jun 03:58PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

For the upteenth time, caps DO NOT help manage network congestion. Congestion occurs during times of peak usage, usually in the evening when even the "low usage" users get on Youtube and stream videos.

There are no "reasonable" caps. You will have no idea how little bandwidth costs these ISPs until they are forced to reveal that data. Any consumer toleration of caps is essentially a slippery slope, where "reasonable" is arbitrarily defined by the average uninformed consumer or greedy corporation with little vision for or understanding of the future.

In other countries with advanced internet networks, including Sweden (which has a lower population density than America), there are no caps, nor would any ISP dare instituting a cap lest they lose customers to competitors.

You need to get the idea of "reasonable" caps out of your head. Otherwise you'll end up being the perfect little PR drone for your greedy ISP.
reply
digitalfreak @ 19th Jun 04:02PM:
Re: So what do WE need to do to make our voices heard again?

said by TKJunkMail :

said by tdouglas22 :

We can't just sit by and let this go through. We have to do something to get it across that this is NOT good for the customers and does nothing to help us. Ideas, anybody? I'm all eyes and ears.
You can call, write, fax those who make policy and those who carry it out. Here are some links that lets you find these people:

»whorunsgov.com/

»whorunsgov.com/Congress/Leadership

»whorunsgov.com/hill_staff

»whorunsgov.com/administration_officials

»www.fcc.gov/contacts.html
Thanks for the info. I'll be contacting each and asking them to support the banning of caps.
reply
S_engineer @ 19th Jun 04:08PM:
Re: The photo here

Is this better?
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 04:11PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

They must have competition in sweden. Wish it was like that here.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 05:19PM:
Re: The future of the internet.

I believe you are speaking of an oxigen bar ;)
reply
sonicmerlin @ 19th Jun 04:16PM:
Re: I don't get it...

said by NetAdmin :

said by fishacura :

What am I missing?
Going from having the ability to use the internet as freely as one wished to having to worry about counting every bit that crosses your WAN interface is what turns a lot of people off to this type of scheme. Providers had marketed unlimited so long to people that by trying to push metered billing on the consumer, people are going to start rationing their usage.

That unlimited usage system is also partly what drove explosion of content on the Net that's driven the demand for broadband. People didn't have to worry about having to pay out the nose to try out Youtube when it first came out and now look at the success that it has become. If providers clamp down on usage, people won't be willing to explore new services and new offers, killing innovation and reducing the demand for broadband.
I'm going to save this and copy paste it into every argument about caps I see. It's perfectly said.
reply
Madness @ 19th Jun 04:21PM:
Better Idea...

How 'bout we just give up the Internet altogether & get out more? Would that make them happy?!! We survived before the Internet, did we not?
--
No keyboard present or keyboard error. Press <F1> to continue....

reply
NetAdmin @ 19th Jun 04:22PM:
Re: The photo here

said by Heated Man :

I really wish this site would stop posting photos of this terrorist when discussing stuff on here. It is dis-respectful.
I just researched Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf's bio and there is nothing in it about ties to terrorism. He was not a member nor was he a member of a terrorist group. The only thing he did was act as the press contact for Iraq during GWII. That doesn't even come close to being a "terrorist."
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

reply
davoice @ 19th Jun 04:26PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

There ARE reasonable caps. I have them at all my web hosts.

For $199/mo I get 100mbps connection on which I can use 5TB (5000GB) of transfer per month. And my web host makes money at those rates.

Extrapolated... that means $50/mo would buy 1.25TB of transfer, or 1250GB.

Now I understand there are certain other costs associated with running a cable, DSL or other delivery network to end-premise locations.

So if we assume 75% of the cost of the plan is in keeping the outside plant running and such, then I would still have 300GB of transfer at $50/mo.

Hmm... interesting... that figure seems really close to Comcast's 250GB cap.

I don't mind a cap if it's in line w/ the actual cost of delivering the bandwidth.

Problem is, as we all know in this case, TWC, et al. doesn't want to charge rates in line with costs... the want to increase profits. Meaning they want to charge far in excess of actual costs.

}Davoice
reply
S_engineer @ 19th Jun 04:31PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

said by Skippy25 :

Obviously your "abusers" which is what this is all about. Will be pegging either connection constantly for most of the time. Those are the people that need to be dealt with.
just how do you define abuser...someone who uses their connection to its fullest extent?
If everyone downloads massive files at the same time, there will be network congestion. Theres no cap that could stop that scenario.
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!

reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 04:36PM:
Re: I don't get it...

I agree we need 3 or more ISPs in each market place. I don't care if they are cable FTTH LTE or something else.

Maybe we should look at local loop unbundling more. Japan and France made it work why can't we?
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 04:37PM:
Re: Just wait Grandma!

Sounds like a good idea to me.
reply
Eat Me @ 19th Jun 05:03PM:
Re: I don't get it...

But best case they limit that to 10GB per month.
reply
Pizz @ 19th Jun 05:08PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by espaeth :

said by me1212 :

A lot do take that idea but not all. AOL used metered billing but competition with un-metered billing stopped them.
No, a desire to increase revenue was what really drove AOL's unmetered option. They charged more for their "unlimited" than most people paid under their metered service offering, but psychologically it "feels" better because there are no limits.

The natural gas companies here in MN started offering 'flat-rate' options a few years ago, preying on people's perception that rising gas prices would leave them with a massive bill. The problem is people choose this plan based on trying to buy piece of mind rather than being a wise financial decision -- and that shows in the soaring profits that this program generates. In the overwhelming majority of cases people pay more, sometimes significantly more, because the pricing is structured so that the companies don't lose. See: »www.startribune.com/lifestyle/yo···166.html

If usage continues to increase by a minority of users, there are 2 paths: continue to raise rates for everyone, or come up with an acceptable method to differentially bill users based on usage.
If your internet bill was billed seperately. Majority of the internet packages are bundled into some sort of CATV/VOIP package. So maybe the low users arent on the net more, but i can bet they're watching Cable TV more. As it stands right now, it evens itself out.

Also, cable co's always raise rates, unless you get yourself into a price lock contract, but even when thats done, you'll end up getting that increase like it or not.
--
The more you talk, the less you listen.

reply
DJMASACRE @ 19th Jun 05:09PM:
aaaaaaaaa

if this was thinking logically, ( which obviously its not )

then they would just leave everything as is, because theres nothing wrong with the current system, except maybe some com nies charging more than others )

by the bit is ridiculous .. then they may as well give us any speeds that we want .. since we would be charged by how much we download anyway , it makes no difference ..

im without words
reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 05:11PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by me1212 :

Pay for what you use if 1GB cost them $0.10 we would pay $0.20 per GB. But they want us to pay like $1 per GB and if it cost them $0.10 that is a 1000% mark up.
That's not really a 1000% markup in the sense that you're implying; it isn't pure profit. Yeah, $1/GB is a bit excessive, but $0.20/GB may even be a little too low.

There's a substantial amount of overhead in the form of equipment and people that are involved in taking that $0.10/GB bandwidth from a carrier and getting it delivered to your house, and that costs a considerable amount of money.

The argument is often made that once the infrastructure is in place there is no cost for usage within the existing capacity, and that's true to a certain extent. The problem is at some point you always have to expand capacity, and that always costs money. So you start billing for capacity expansion based on usage today. This is often used as a chargeback model for things like data center port capacity; we calculate out what it costs to build a switch with 240 x GigE ports (sups, power supplies, etc) and divide that cost by 240 to get a per-port cost. We bill the business units a charge-back fee to plug into the switch (that's already there and technically has open capacity), and budget the money to pay for future additional switch purchases when it comes time to expand.

The only time the unit expansion model breaks is if your demand actually decreases over time. I don't see any chance of that really happening in the Internet space, not for a good long while anyway.
reply
gorehound @ 19th Jun 05:29PM:
Consumption will suck

I will be extremely angry if I am forced to pay some kind of BS consumption billing scheme here in the USA.
And if there is anyone at all who is out there saying they actually support this maybe they would be so kind as to PAY MY BILL !!!

Cause the only way someone will support this is if they either work for one of the shyster companies like Slime Warner or they are a rich yuppie who does not care about their fellow consumer citizens.
reply
WhatNow @ 19th Jun 05:30PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Why is there no value in the transport only in the content. If it was not for the transport infrastructure from someone you could not get view the content. The ISPs take on all the risk when they turn-up the last mile equipment no one is forced to take the service. so they may get 90% of homes in an area or 10% but their costs are the same. If a node has 100 ports and they sell most of them they should make money. If they have 101 customers then the costs are double but the revenue is almost the same. In a lot of semi-rural settings if you get 100% take you may only have only be using 10 or 15 ports out of the 100 ports.

If networks were so easy and cheap to setup there would be competition. I loaded Netmeter and have discovered I use less then 10GB per month. I don't want my rates to go up because 10% are using 200GB or more. Downloading has changed nic cards are dirt cheap and more video content is available computer disk storage is cheap so the amount of bytes you can download is only limited by the speed of your connection and the speed of the content server.
Why should companies like NetFlix be the only ones to make money on the improvements the ISPs have made. If the content from NetFlix is of value then why is there no value in getting it to you.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 05:36PM:
Re: Better Idea...

I'm all for it... except all we'd have left for information sources would be cartoon-images of newspapers, hate radio, and garbage television programming.
reply
sonicmerlin @ 19th Jun 05:52PM:
Re: Cap or Per Byte

Wow. So basically you just read the first sentence of my post, ignoring everything else I said. Never mind the 'caps don't manage network congestion part'. Or the absolute lack of caps in competitive international markets. No, you have to focus on webhosts, which provide dedicated lines and extra special service around the lines. Brilliant.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 05:52PM:
Opportunity

Since all the ISP's want to move to charging per byte. There may be a business opportunity for groups to setup neighborhood ISP's. Run a T1/T3 line into a household and let the neighbors connect wireless.
reply
sonicmerlin @ 19th Jun 05:54PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

TWC spent a little over $130 last year on network maintenance and upgrades. That's in contrast to $4 billion in profit.

Your estimation of their costs is way, way off base.
reply
sonicmerlin @ 19th Jun 05:56PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Buddy, the ISPs have been given hundreds of billions of dollars in tax subsidies over the last decade to develop their networks.

They also make unethically high profit margins year after year. Trust me, the content providers are not the only ones making money.
reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 06:00PM:
Re: Liars

said by S_engineer :

I disagree, i think that most users on this forum understand the mass populace is using only minimal amounts of bandwidth.
I don't know, people seem to get on board with Karl when he suggests a majority of people will be impacted by caps of even 100GB.

said by S_engineer :

This is the crux of the argument.
for years these companies have ignored forecasts about the exponential growth of the Internet.
I don't think it's that black and white. Residential Internet options that people sign up for today were born out of opportunity to reuse existing infrastructure (twisted pair copper phone lines and coax cable), and were not necessarily designed to be the best / most scalable platform out there.

said by S_engineer :

The rest are now taking the route of upgrading nothing at a time where bandwidth usage forecasts continue to climb. A Cap or an overage fee does not fix the technical issues that still loom.
Caps do nothing but attempt to buy you time while planning the next network upgrade. They are imperfect, as they don't address peak congestion. In most cases caps are really only good as a published benchmark to use when dealing with "network abuse" -- a poor term which doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing anything illegal, just using more capacity than the system is really designed to handle.

said by S_engineer :

Their lack making the necessary upgrades the keep up what their own forecast were calling for are their own fault. This was clearly a case where quarterly reports became more important than the long term position that these companies needed to take.
I don't think it's quite that simple. I find it interesting that nobody every questions why carrier bandwidth is so inexpensive, especially considering these are also "greedy corporations" building out those networks. The difference is carrier bandwidth has always been sold in full dedicated capacity, or burstable capacity with metered billing. The link is set where more bandwidth means more revenue which means (hopefully) more profit. The residential ISPs with flat rate billing have very little incentive to upgrade bandwidth, except when scarcity would cause subscribers to leave.

said by S_engineer :

EDIT* And another thing, if there was such a bandwidth apocolyse looming, then why would these carriers line up to sign agreements with online video service ESPN360?
The cost of signing up for ESPN360 is minimal for large ISPs (in the grand scheme of things), and if it prevents users from leaving it's a win.
reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 06:06PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by sonicmerlin :

TWC spent a little over $130 last year on network maintenance and upgrades. That's in contrast to $4 billion in profit.

Your estimation of their costs is way, way off base.
That's only equipment charges. That doesn't factor in people like network engineers planning expansion and the field engineers / techs that implement capacity augmentation because they are not a direct cost to that business line item on a 10K filing.

After you order equipment it doesn't magically make it from pallets into the field. Manpower is a huge expense in network operation and maintenance.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 06:26PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

Still I don't think that would be $4billion.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 06:34PM:
Re: Opportunity

I was thinking the same thing. The speeds would not be as fast, but no cap/meter ether.
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 06:34PM:
Re: I don't get it...

I think I may too.
reply
espaeth @ 19th Jun 06:40PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by me1212 :

Still I don't think that would be $4billion.
It was 4 billion in revenue for HSI, compared to $130 million in *DIRECT* costs.

Indirect costs include: Facility fees (power / HVAC / space), taxes (property taxes on said facilities), Call center operations for HSI support, 24x7 NOC staff, engineering staff, benefits for all of those folks, etc.

The call center and support operations are actually distributed costs billed the organization as a whole and not assigned as a direct cost to any specific business unit.

»www.google.com/finance?q=twc

Of course, you'll notice that TWC's stock plummeted after their Feb 28 10K filing because they reported a -42.7% Net Profit margin. Their Q1 net profit margin is still 4.22%

People get all caught up on $Billions because it's a massive number, but when you work out the percentages it's not quite as impressive.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 06:42PM:
Grandma.....

My Grandma get's discounted cable/phone/util service because she is a Sr citizen. Just tell grandma to go talk to Social Security for her benefits as a senior.

but for everyone else... let's keep the pricing where it should be 1/2 the fixed rate price of today for the same level of service.

if you flip the switch on the topic and say the customers demand 1/2 the current price for the exact same level of service (Then just stick your fingers in your ears as the lobbyist does his spin) these corp's will need to bow down.

or maybe we can all start a cut the cord of oppression month. Where everyone cancels their service for the same month :D

Ad revenue will crash, all tech companies will grind to a halt! ;)
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 06:46PM:
say goodbye

say goodbye and don't give in to this crap anymore to hell with the internet getting like looking at crap tv to night i blow up my computer and give it all up life is to short for this shit any more what are we drug addicts no internet addicts we pay to much now for this crap

no more ..................
reply
me1212 @ 19th Jun 07:01PM:
Just a thought.

Maybe we should look into Local loop unbundling again, the Japanese and French made it work why can't we.
reply
anon @ 19th Jun 09:42PM:
Re: Liars

said by Kearnstd :

said by Matt :

but also dont forget AT&T is the telephone company so they will have a 10.99 Apocalypse Processing fee and a 159.99 early termination fee with really small print stating(ETF may still be charged if Internet explodes causing unexpected end of service).
.. i'm really curious how 'early termination fee' and 'apocalypse' kinda jive with application of said fees (or just HOW would one get a refund?)

:)
reply
Heated Man @ 19th Jun 09:49PM:
Re: The photo here

Well the way this site posts the picture it is poking fun at him and that should not happen. My apologies for saying he was a terrorist. But it does not change the fact that this site continues to bash him.
reply
bicker @ 20th Jun 05:12AM:
If you don't like the price, don't use the service

The only people who are against metered billing are people who derive more value from the service being offered than they are currently payin, who are fearful that they may actually have to pay what the service they're using is worth.
reply
Wizeguy @ 20th Jun 06:10AM:
Remember when the broke up Ma Bell

"Collectively, they'll spend the next year or two trying to convince the public and daft lawmakers that metered billing is patriotic, good for children and puppies"

There was commercial with a guy knocking on an old woman's door. Telling her they were there to fix her phone. She said through the door "but I don't want you to fix my phone". Then one of the 100 or so people with him say's "tell her higher rates are better". Now instead of one conglomerate we have many, all fixing our phones and internet for our good. I'm sure they will parade users in front of Congress that complain about slow downloads, not being able to get that emergency video of little Johnny taking his crap on the toilet. We will fight it tooth and nail but in the end when the smoke clears and the money has greased the right palms they will get what they want. It will be modified so we will think we are getting a good deal but in the end we will be taking it in the end with no kiss or lubricant.
reply
anon @ 20th Jun 06:42AM:
Video growth

The growth of video and the high bandwidth and total data transfer it demands is why this metered billing is being pursued.

Carriers understand very well that with video growing more than any other data type that the amount of data transferred will only increase. Not just for some but for all. Metered pricing is simply a way to make as much money as possible knowing that all the signs point in a certain direction. The argument that this is about an equitable pricing scheme associated with the amount of data transferred which targets specific users is bogus. Its an absolute given that all users, over time, will show an increase in GBs transferred.
reply
anon @ 20th Jun 07:18AM:
Re: I don't get it...

Because you are not using your allotment doesn't mean your neighbor shouldn't use his. Besides you may use 500GB someday, don't think that's not what they are preparing for.
reply
Pizz @ 20th Jun 08:06AM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

said by espaeth :

said by me1212 :

Still I don't think that would be $4billion.
It was 4 billion in revenue for HSI, compared to $130 million in *DIRECT* costs.

Indirect costs include: Facility fees (power / HVAC / space), taxes (property taxes on said facilities), Call center operations for HSI support, 24x7 NOC staff, engineering staff, benefits for all of those folks, etc.

The call center and support operations are actually distributed costs billed the organization as a whole and not assigned as a direct cost to any specific business unit.

»www.google.com/finance?q=twc

Of course, you'll notice that TWC's stock plummeted after their Feb 28 10K filing because they reported a -42.7% Net Profit margin. Their Q1 net profit margin is still 4.22%

People get all caught up on $Billions because it's a massive number, but when you work out the percentages it's not quite as impressive.
This company is managed by inept people, who have no clue or foresight about HSI. They only do upgrades/planning on their CATV side, because they're all TV execs. If you want to factor in overhead that is not reported on the 10k sheet, i'll obliged and yet they still spent sub 500million on a large network.

There's no excuse or reasoning, or rationale why they spend piss poor money on HSI. But wait, there is! This is why you do CBB - instead of the company dropping the $$$ you have your customers foot the entire bill. Most people will never check a meter, and with TWC planned low caps, those overages will surely rake in extra $$$.

you want to defend your local MSO comcast, by all means. But please don't defend a company you never bought a single product from, or worked for.
--
The more you talk, the less you listen.

reply
XBL2009 @ 20th Jun 11:04AM:
Only 1 or 2 percent are bandwidth hogs

So there is no need for a meter system. It is just an excuse to charge us more money for what we are receiving.
reply
jkeelsnc @ 20th Jun 11:56AM:
Caps, etc

Well, these big telcos and cable companies MIGHT get away with implementing the caps. However, I doubt it will last too long. I don't see it working for me unless they slash my monthly bill. As it is, i am on AT&T and I can tell you that if they implement caps I am gone. However, where I live at the moment Charter is the only other choice and I imagine they will soon implement caps. I am moving this fall to Greensboro, NC (grad school) and there it will either be TWC or AT&T (doesn't look like a good choice in either case).

However, if the caps are ridiculous (which AT&T's are where they have them) or with TWC then I still get to vote with my wallet. And the end result is that I think some other people will as well especially when they start getting their monthly bills with ridiculous overage charges. The caps will be implemented and then people will get the bill the next month and thats when the fit will hit the shan and people will leave.

At that point I'll be doing nothing but pointing my fingers at the telcos and the cable companies incessantly to put the blame where it belongs. Already, in North Carolina, the big ISP's have tried to introduce bills to the general assembly to prevent cities and counties from building their own fiber networks. Every time they have failed. Partly because we now have a sensible general assembly and governor who will not pander to the telcos. The ISP's have so far been told politely to "get lost" when they started snooping around with these bills. Additionally, another factor is that a surprising number of people in NC, including myself, wrote to their state representatives enough to get their attention. The Telcos and cable companies thought they could slip these bills under the door quietly. Citizens were paying attention and put their foot down on the back of the ISP's and once again told their state representatives to have them leave. So, words don't always talk but sometimes government and money do. Money walking out the door of the ISP's is ultimately the thing that will make the difference. When they start hemorraging cash and stockholders start selling off stock they will be wondering why they couldn't manipulate their customers into a new tidy profit building arrangement. :)
reply
NetAdmin @ 20th Jun 01:10PM:
Re: The photo here

I don't know what the site's motivation is for using the photo, but I'm under the impression they use it when a person or a company is shoveling crapola, the same way al-Sahhaf was issuing government propaganda during the GWII invasion. He was the one that kept saying to the world that nothing was going on, coalition forces weren't in Iraq and so forth, despite the fact that is was false propaganda. So, I don't think they are making fun of the guy, as much as comparing companies and people to that period in his life as the Iraqi Information Minister.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

reply
anon @ 20th Jun 03:19PM:
Re: Opportunity

If you could do simple math you'd understand a T1 has a cap of 350ish GB a month. So a 250 GB cap isn't that bad - its essentially 1 mbit/sec 24/7/30
reply
GlobalMind @ 20th Jun 04:21PM:
Bandwidth harvesting

It's pretty amazing how these guys keep crying about bandwidth exhaustion like it's a natural resource that we're depleting.

The reality is that it's all man made so we make the decision to deploy more. Sure there are costs involved but the idea of it being ultimately limited is bogus.
--
TheGlobalMind.com / Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? / Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson / Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.

reply
anon @ 21st Jun 08:03AM:
Re: Liars

"The low usage subscribers make up a much greater percentage of the customer base than most on this forum think."

And at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because both high bandwidth users and low bandwidth users are already being RAPED on the cost per byte.
reply
albundyhere @ 21st Jun 12:11PM:
picking up the tab

So besides router companies being put out of business, due to the fact that joe schmoe cant really figure out how to block out 30 people in his small NYC apt. from tapping into his wifi router therefore getting a bill for $10,000 a month, , LMAO, then I guess I will have to find an alternative. If there is none, then goodbye internet.

On the other hand, major companies that financially depend on the web like amazon and buy.com will soon be setting up B&M stores, or they can sue the ISPs for billions and gazillions of dollars.
reply
Heated Man @ 21st Jun 08:53PM:
Re: If you don't like the price, don't use the service

said by bicker :

The only people who are against metered billing are people who derive more value from the service being offered than they are currently payin, who are fearful that they may actually have to pay what the service they're using is worth.
Could not have said it better myself
reply
mrkevin @ 22nd Jun 07:58AM:
Re: The photo here

this is all off topic...something I got warned about last week...
reply
mrkevin @ 22nd Jun 08:00AM:
Re: Just wait Grandma!

wait until grandma's computer gets infected with a worm.

What about IP TV?
reply
anon @ 22nd Jun 09:13AM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

I believe that competition would solve the issue, IF companies were forced to bring equal products across their ENTIRE footprint. My only option from Verizon right now is dial-up or 1MB DSL. My cable company has decent speeds, but have 40GB and 60GB traffic caps. If I had Fios in my area, or even knowledge that Fios would be here in 3-5 years, then it might be different. But since the current landscape allows Verizon, or ATT, or whoever else to only put high speed connections in places where it makes shareholders happy, then there is no need for my cable company to worry about competition. If Verizon, or whoever else was required to bring their product to their entire footprint, then competition would stop these problems.
reply
insomniac84 @ 22nd Jun 04:47PM:
Re: Liars

said by espaeth :

The low usage subscribers make up a much greater percentage of the customer base than most on this forum think.
Until more and more people start getting more services over the internet. Like TV and movies. Sure right now grandma might only use 50mb, but in 20-30 years that isn't going to be true. Hell it might not even be true in 10 years. Cable companies are most likely predicting much more heavy use of the internet.

If you give them what seems like an inch today. In 20 years that inch will be a million miles. They will have created a system where they get to make heavy profit for delivering services that compete with their tv service.
reply
anon @ 22nd Jun 05:35PM:
Boy its gonna get real ugly.

These ISP's just dont know how ugly its going to get. We dont need them anymore anyways. Theres no reason why we cant get everyone together and install networks for each of our own towns, cities, etc... Its already been done and proven that broadband internet can be alot cheaper than what we are all paying now.

These days its all about efficiency, cutting waste and cutting excessive spending. If these companies are going to play this way then we dont need them.
reply
backness @ 22nd Jun 05:48PM:
Re: Liars

They'll just take it as a deposit ;)
reply
espaeth @ 22nd Jun 05:59PM:
Re: Liars

said by insomniac84 :

If you give them what seems like an inch today. In 20 years that inch will be a million miles. They will have created a system where they get to make heavy profit for delivering services that compete with their tv service.
You're assuming that only broadcast video services are able to deliver Internet access with that statement.

Public access to the Internet has grown on non-dedicated access media from its earliest days. The primary method started out as modems using the public switched telephone network, and eventually grew to technologies that "piggyback" existing deployed infrastructure to reduce the cost of deployment. There is only so much the current broadband providers can raise their rates. The networks are currently below market equilibrium because they are leveraging existing deployed cable plant. The current pricing is such that competitors can't afford to build out new infrastructure to establish new Internet service and make a profit. The current broadband companies can only raise prices by a certain amount before it will become cost effective for other companies to build out their own purpose-built Internet networks to residential markets.
reply
backness @ 22nd Jun 06:08PM:
Re: Competition would stop this.

I get it, the money that we pay each month is good for absolutely nothing? We pay each month for those upgrades and access to that equipment. So why for my 50$ should I not have access to the ISP facilities that I rent and pay for? Thats like saying i have a membership at the Gym but I can only use the eliptical machine.

Guys like you just don't make any sense.
reply
insomniac84 @ 22nd Jun 06:43PM:
Re: Liars

said by espaeth :

The current pricing is such that competitors can't afford to build out new infrastructure to establish new Internet service and make a profit.
Not true. Municipalities seem to have no problem building it up and making profit. Granted it's easier for them to get start up loans, but still. Even verizon is replacing their existing network with fiber. So it's incorrect to claim they can't afford it.

said by espaeth :

The current broadband companies can only raise prices by a certain amount before it will become cost effective for other companies to build out their own purpose-built Internet networks to residential markets.
So basically they are leveraging their size to prevent competition with artificially low rates and now they want to be able to continue to advertise a low base price while still getting an increase via the under-advertised metered part of the price?

I think not. They should have to advertise a flat price, that is the only way to keep everything fair. It's bad enough that they don't include fees and taxes in the advertised price. You want them to advertise a service for 19.95 a month and put some fine print about a 40b cap and 2 dollar a GB charges at the bottom? It would send the internet back to 1995.
reply
espaeth @ 22nd Jun 07:11PM:
Re: Liars

said by insomniac84 :

said by espaeth :

The current pricing is such that competitors can't afford to build out new infrastructure to establish new Internet service and make a profit.
Not true. Municipalities seem to have no problem building it up and making profit.
Really?

»Earthlink Closing Philly Wi-Fi Network June 12

»MetroFi Pulls Out of Municipal Wireless Game

»Utah's Utopia Tries To Stay Afloat

said by insomniac84 :

Even verizon is replacing their existing network with fiber. So it's incorrect to claim they can't afford it.
Verizon's rollout of FiOS is about one thing: triple play. Both ATT and Verizon realized early on that the TV / Phone / Internet packages are where the real money was to be made and the cable companies had the upper hand. That's been the driving force behind U-Verse and FiOS deployments - keeping the companies viable.

said by insomniac84 :

They should have to advertise a flat price, that is the only way to keep everything fair. It's bad enough that they don't include fees and taxes in the advertised price. You want them to advertise a service for 19.95 a month and put some fine print about a 40b cap and 2 dollar a GB charges at the bottom? It would send the internet back to 1995.
It's the fastest way to get capacity expansion. That's why there is so much backbone capacity at the moment: bandwidth at the backbone level is billed based on consumption. You want them to build more capacity? Use more bandwidth.

Right now with the flat pricing structure all you do by consuming more bandwidth is eat away at the profit structure; growing demand only provides motivation for companies to upgrade if the service will degrade to the point that customers will quit.

The simple reality is prices are going to go up one way or another.
reply
Matt @ 22nd Jun 08:07PM:
Re: Liars

Muni WiFi != Muni Fiber.
reply
espaeth @ 22nd Jun 08:08PM:
Re: Liars

said by Matt :

Muni WiFi != Muni Fiber.
You'll note Utopia is on that list of links. That's muni fiber, my friend.
reply
Matt @ 22nd Jun 08:09PM:
Re: Liars

said by espaeth :

said by Matt :

Muni WiFi != Muni Fiber.
You'll note Utopia is on that list of links. That's muni fiber, my friend.
Yes, but that was only 1 of 3 of your links and it hasn't failed.
reply
espaeth @ 22nd Jun 08:18PM:
Re: Liars

said by Matt :

Yes, but that was only 1 of 3 of your links and it hasn't failed.
... yet.

Certainly that they're struggling to meet revenue to support operations doesn't really support the statement that "Municipalities seem to have no problem building it up and making profit."

There are a number of muni-networks that fail because they are only sustainable if they get a 70%+ conversion rate. That's tough for any company to do, no matter how good they are. Even Verizon is only mustering a 25% adoption rate with FiOS, no matter how superior it may be to other offerings.
reply
insomniac84 @ 22nd Jun 08:20PM:
Re: Liars

Yes, because not profiting as much as they wanted to means they aren't profiting. And to me it was stupid not to also target businesses. You can easily charge them double or more and sell profitable SLAs. They need to focus on all areas and not just undeserved areas. The reasons why an area is undeserved is because people are poor and can't pay for it.

It seems Utopia isn't profiting as much as they want due to them excluding the more profitable areas and customers. If they targeted everyone they wouldn't have a problem.
reply
espaeth @ 22nd Jun 08:35PM:
Re: Liars

said by insomniac84 :

Yes, because not profiting as much as they wanted to means they aren't profiting.
It means they aren't making profits at a rate that will allow them to pay back their loans.

With muni-broadband, that means that the tax payers are stuck paying off the business that couldn't cut it. Of course, the federal government has been doing a lot of that lately, so who am I to say that approach is wrong?
reply
Matt @ 22nd Jun 08:50PM:
Re: Liars

said by espaeth :

said by insomniac84 :

Yes, because not profiting as much as they wanted to means they aren't profiting.
It means they aren't making profits at a rate that will allow them to pay back their loans.

With muni-broadband, that means that the tax payers are stuck paying off the business that couldn't cut it. Of course, the federal government has been doing a lot of that lately, so who am I to say that approach is wrong?
It's okay to be anti-muni, but please try and support your arguments with facts rather than assumptions.

Have any muni's failed and dumped the burden on their taxpayers? How many muni operations (non-WiFi) have actually failed ... period? From most of the articles I've read on here over the years, the munis are privately funded and or structured in a way to shield taxpayers. To put it in perspective, for every failed muni, it would be just as easy to dig up two that are so far successful. UTOPIA blazed the trail and luckily, their business model is open for anyone to see. New muni deployments are free to see what worked and what didn't.

In any business, whether government backed or not, there are and will be failures. I think we could easily dig up several public companies that have failed miserably too. The key to muni deployments is to shield taxpayers and require the muni to pay all taxes and fees, just like a private company. Regardless, if a public company won't serve an area and when put to a vote, the populace decides they want to do it themselves, the company who refused to serve the area shouldn't have a say.
reply
insomniac84 @ 22nd Jun 09:11PM:
Re: Liars

said by espaeth :

It means they aren't making profits at a rate that will allow them to pay back their loans.
No it means they aren't making the meaningful profits after paying off the loans. Of course if they serve business customers that will change fast.
reply
espaeth @ 24th Jun 08:37PM:
Re: Liars

said by Matt :

It's okay to be anti-muni, but please try and support your arguments with facts rather than assumptions.

Have any muni's failed and dumped the burden on their taxpayers? How many muni operations (non-WiFi) have actually failed ... period?
It depends on how you define failed I guess. In my case I define it as "not succeeding," although you appear to be defining it as "dead."

So let's look at iProvo. They deployed the network using city enterprise funds used to provide self-supporting services like city water & sewer. In mid-2007 the city council added $1.2 million in sales tax revenue to help prop up the shortfall of iProvo to meet its self-sustaining status. By the end of 2007, they had a an additional $850k shortfall which had to be covered by the city general fund. By May of last year, to get out of the business of trying to manage the network the city sold the service to Broadweave for $40.6 million ... sort of. It turns out Broadweave didn't have the cash to actually front the sale, so the city wrote it off as bonds which it retained and allowed Broadweave to pay off the sale in $268k monthly payments, only for the last few months Broadweave hasn't been paying.

Adoption rates are absolutely critical for networks, which is why incumbents fight these projects tooth and nail. As soon as another provider comes in to leech away customers, they're left with the same operational costs of maintain a network that reaches their entire service area with a dwindling revenue left to support it.

Muni-wifi options are definitely cheaper. The Portland muni-Wifi failure only cost the city $60k to take down the now dormant gear.

said by Matt :

UTOPIA blazed the trail and luckily, their business model is open for anyone to see. New muni deployments are free to see what worked and what didn't.
If Utopia is such a shining star of success, then why are they asking the member cities to come up with another $504 million in sales tax revenue to help keep operations going?

said by Matt :

In any business, whether government backed or not, there are and will be failures. I think we could easily dig up several public companies that have failed miserably too.
When public companies fail, the investors take the hit. When government-backed services fail, the tax payers are forced to carry the costs. That's the whole point of city projects, in some way or another all of that money is funded through taxes, and taxes are not an optional payment for citizens. Well, I guess they sort of are -- if you don't pay them you always have the option of jailtime.

I agree that it's unfortunate that public telecoms won't provide the service, but usually it's because they actually have a pretty good understanding of what the costs are for operating such a beast and elect not to launch themselves into the money pit.
reply
tech8 @ 28th Jun 12:14PM:
caps

If you drive a Humvee or a Civic should you both pay the exact
same amount at the gas pump? Clearly the Civic driver will be
paying for the Humvee driver. Most network traffic analysis shows
that a small fraction of users generates most of the traffic. It's
these users (Humvee drivers) that are asking everyone else to
pay for their use. Bandwidth is a commodity that costs money
to build, maintain and operate. The question then becomes
who do you want to run it? The Government, Private Enterprise
or ? and how do you pay for it?
reply

Thank you for using lo-fi dslreports.com - report bugs
© 99-2009 silver matrix LLC