Verizon Won't 'Slavishly Satisfy' You With 100 Mbps FiOS - Still believes anything over 50 Mbps is marketing fluff
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Verizon Won't 'Slavishly Satisfy' You With 100 Mbps FiOS
Still believes anything over 50 Mbps is marketing fluff
12:50PM Friday Sep 25 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: competition · business · bandwidth · cable · Comcast · Verizon FIOS · Cablevision
Back in April we reported how Cablevision was launching 101Mbps+ connection at a $99 price point (albeit with a whopping $300 activation fee), a first for the industry. Given the product is the marketing equivalent of a drop kick aimed squarely at Verizon's face, it wasn't surprising to see Verizon quickly downplay the offering, calling it little more than a "parlor trick." For now, Verizon believes their top offering of 50 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up is more than enough bandwidth for the average user. They're right. Still, hardcore users never have enough speed.

Verizon has been testing 100Mbps connectivity in employee homes for some time (see video), something made a little easier due to their $23 billion+ investment in GPON fiber to the home. However, Verizon has repeatedly claimed the 100Mbps mark is more about marketing than demand until more bandwidth-intensive applications emerge. Verizon's vice president of FiOS TV content strategy Terry Denson had this to say back in 2007:
Are customers asking for 100 meg? No. Very few. But it raises the ante on the competitive landscape, so that customers believe that 100 Mb/s is what they need to have. . . A hundred meg ends up being a threshold because it's sexy. I don't think customer behavior is going to get there for several years. Some outliers will demand that and maybe more. But what really drives it isn't so much consumer demand. It's competitive marketing tactics.
Jump two years forward and Verizon's position really hasn't changed about the value of offering 100 Mbps. In conversations with the Fiber To The Home Council, Verizon CTO and Senior Vice President Dick Lynch this week discussed the potential of Verizon's GPON network, proclaiming that advanced PON architectures of 10 Gbps down and 2.5 Gbps upstream might enable a multi-gigabit feed to each and every customer. But for now, Lynch is holding tight to Verizon's position that 100 Mbps would just be too damn "slavishly satisfying:"
For starters, you’re absolutely right that the speeds we decide to offer reflect market analysis, not broadband capacities. Power users will always want all you can give them, but slavishly satisfying them skews the service and the market unrealistically. We could go to 75 or 100 Mbps and beyond tomorrow, but the larger market doesn’t require that capacity at the moment. We’re watching and planning, though. And we’re ready.
In other words, don't expect 100 Mbps anytime soon. Verizon's content to let Cablevision hold the marketing speed crown with the understanding that for now, Cablevision's nabbing only a small number of very speed-obsessed customers. Meanwhile, many other Verizon competitors aren't rushing to 100 Mbps either. While Comcast just launched 100 Mbps service in the Twin Cities, it's intended solely for business users and costs $370 a month. Time Warner Cable only just launched 50 Mbps service in one market. Verizon has no reason to hurry.

Related:
  1. 20% of Comcast Users To See DOCSIS 3.0 in 2008
  2. Verizon Laughs Off DOCSIS 3.0
  3. Cablevision Gets Wrist Slap For Misleading Ads
  4. Verizon Uses Your Forum Complaints Against Cablevision
  5. Cablevision: FiOS? What's FiOS?
  6. Comcast Adds Just 65,000 New Broadband Customers In Q2
  7. Pittsburgh, Verizon Haggling Over FiOS
  8. Comcast DOCSIS 3.0 Hits Denver
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page: 1 · 2
baineschile @ 25th Sep 12:12PM:
Just do it

Just launch a 100mb service. If its about marketing, and you have the network to do it; market it!
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nonymous @ 25th Sep 12:14PM:
IIn what employees house?

Sure testing in whose employee home. All the bigwigs and maybe a few other lucky people to make it appear like a real test. Probably more of a way for the CEO and his friends to get the best while the customers get scraps.
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Luminaris @ 25th Sep 12:15PM:
Keeping pace

How about faster speeds to keep pace with the rest of the world? Innovation? How about trying to outpace countries with much faster speeds? I guess that doesn't mean much to ISP's here in the U.S.
--
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WC813 @ 25th Sep 12:21PM:
Re: Keeping pace

Your points sound more like wants than needs.

Is keeping up with the Jones a reason to do it?
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xlimitx @ 25th Sep 12:25PM:
Hey America, look at our super mega fast network.

It sounds as though they're not exactly quite sure how to pay for the amounts of bandwidth that they're dishing out to high end customers.

Do I smell more layoffs?
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Antonlm @ 25th Sep 12:26PM:
100 Mbps will....

Only keep people glued to the computer feverishly looking for something, anything to download.
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Luminaris @ 25th Sep 12:34PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by WC813 :

Your points sound more like wants than needs.

Is keeping up with the Jones a reason to do it?
So what's the point of other countries having 2-3X the speed we have then? Is it a need? That's what I wonder.
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psx_defector @ 25th Sep 12:42PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Luminaris :

How about faster speeds to keep pace with the rest of the world?
Who gives a shit about the rest of the world? Just because some Korean WoW gold miner demands an 100Gbps optical connection shoved up his ass doesn't mean squat for Billy Bob in the backwoods of Virgina.

Innovation?
Is bendable fiber NOT innovation?

How about trying to outpace countries with much faster speeds?
See Korean WoW gold miner.

I guess that doesn't mean much to ISP's here in the U.S.
Just as the US market means squat to the rest of the world. The Australian and UK markets don't capitulate to demands from the rest of the world telling them to go unmetered. Belgium doesn't give a rats ass that some Sweedish pirate has fiber to the home. Someone from South Africa doesn't care that his neighbor country just to the north doesn't have ANY broadband.

Every market is different. And we are not the typical broadband user. Just because people on dslreports.com are clamoring for the 100Gbps optical link shoved up our asses doesn't mean that the users in Bumblefuck, VA demand it, or even someone next door.
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Shamayim @ 25th Sep 12:50PM:
Ultra high entry fee is the reason

"Cablevision's nabbing only a small number of very speed-obsessed customers."

Cablevision's absurdly high $300 internet highway tollboth charge is what's keeping the number small. I myself, like many others I'm sure, can easily afford it but refuse on principle to fork over the ransom.
--
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anon @ 25th Sep 12:51PM:
50Mbps is overkill

I have Verizon FiOS. I used to have 50Mbps but went back down to 25Mbps as I could not find anything that worked better or faster with 50Mbps. For the average consumer, 25Mbps is more than plenty for now. Verizon is right, 100Mbps is simply wasteful and overkill.
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WC813 @ 25th Sep 12:54PM:
Re: Keeping pace

With the speeds VZ offers now I think it is more important to keep the quality of service up (low/no outages, no slowness during peak times on their network) than trying to provide higher speed rates. If you ever get a chance to switch to Fios you will see what I mean. It just works...
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amungus @ 25th Sep 12:54PM:
HD is still compressed a LOT

Or, allow "work from home" to be almost as if you were actually connected directly to the LAN there (IF the company also has such service, which I would doubt...).

The thought is funny though - some guy thinking he's reached the end of the internet, sweating profusely, eyes bugged out, desperately hoping that he can find that HD transfer of every scrap of footage taken somewhere, for some event, that got bootlegged by somebody, and uploaded to the intarweb ;)

Seriously though, the capability to have better HD (less compressed) feeds to more locations on premises would be pretty nice to have. I don't know what they allocate to video, but if it were, say 100Mbps, you could have quite a few very good quality streams to HD devices (or computers - the difference is becoming silly - an STB or PC ought to be allowed to "tune in").

Blu-ray playback is what, about 40Mbps (compressed)? What if you could have the data side delivering 2 such streams?

That's compressed too... Imagine LESS compression, say instead of that, you could use 80Mbps for video. HD would look even more awesome...
Also, 1080p is NOT the be all and end all of HD. Already, people are looking at "quad HD" - which will require even more bandwidth. 3D video is also on the horizon, which again, will require more bandwidth, even at CURRENT resolution(s)...
Not to mention all the plans for more "interactive" services that may eventually happen. 2-way video would also need good bandwidth to work well (esp. if it were in HD!). The list goes on...

Even compressed at Blu-ray ratios, 3D, quad HD, any future display technology is going to take a lot of bandwidth.

Verizon has fiber - to people's houses. At least they'll be more prepared than others when the time comes to deliver...
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openbox9 @ 25th Sep 12:59PM:
Re: Hey America, look at our super mega fast network.

Or maybe, the demand for 100 Mbps tiers simply doesn't exist yet. Given VZ's capacity and GPON architecture, I would expect them to be leading the charge with a $200+/mth tier if the demand actually existed.
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openbox9 @ 25th Sep 01:02PM:
Re: Ultra high entry fee is the reason

If a requirement exists, the $300 fee isn't a barrier to entry at all. What does it cost to set up a 100 Mbps port in a carrier hotel?
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neufuse @ 25th Sep 01:03PM:
Re: HD is still compressed a LOT

uh no one is ever going to offer uncompressed video when its digital..... MPEG2/4 are always going to be compressed some even at the highest bit rate... and HDTV standard runs at what 18-25 Mbit?
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xlimitx @ 25th Sep 01:04PM:
Re: Hey America, look at our super mega fast network.

I do tend to agree with you on whether or not there is a true mainstream need for 100Mbps of internet bandwidth.

100Mbps is awesome for multiple HD or SD streams which they're using for their TV service, but finding reliable sources of servers willing to push 100Mbps are rare. Even more rare is a typical consumer who would know the difference between 10Mbps and 100Mbps. Usually consumers view services in three different levels. Those levels being; working well, working okay or not working.
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iansltx @ 25th Sep 01:05PM:
Re: HD is still compressed a LOT

HD runs between 9-17 Mbit, depending on whether you get it via sat (most compressed), via cable (middling) or via OTA (least compressed).

1080p video is HUGE uncompressed; you need USB 3.0 to transfer it to a computer...
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RolteC @ 25th Sep 01:09PM:
Verizon is Smart!

I like what they are doing.

They know tech savy and ping conscience people will stick with FiOS, especially for reliable connections, no offence, I also believe OOL is great from most of my experience using the service.

But now think about this:
They will let the most bandwidth consuming hogs go, and remain on Cablevisions network, bugging them down, and costing them the most $$ while Verizon stays put with what it has and doesn't worry as much as the hogs.

Makes sense doesn't it. SO in the end who is really losing ;)
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Neyland @ 25th Sep 01:10PM:
It's OK

ATT is still offering up to 3mb DSL here.
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iansltx @ 25th Sep 01:11PM:
Fiber competition would fix this

Of 50/20 vs. 101/15, I'd get 50/20. Or 35/20. Cable currently can't get 20 Mbps up 100% of the time, so Verizon has the edge there. Not that they particularly want customers paying $100 for a connection, then proceeding to download 5TB per month over it.

That said, if there were competing providers laying out fiber infrastructure, there would probably be more speed/price wars. At that point limitations of the infrastructure are so high that providers can offer pretty much whatever speeds they want at low marginal costs...
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Luminaris @ 25th Sep 01:14PM:
Re: Keeping pace

Wow, just, WOW. Dude, you got issues
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JesseHarris @ 25th Sep 01:14PM:
100Mbps is too much?

Give me a 100Mbps connection and I'll show you just how little it really is.
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bender @ 25th Sep 01:14PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by psx_defector :

said by Luminaris :

How about faster speeds to keep pace with the rest of the world?
Who gives a shit about the rest of the world? Just because some Korean WoW gold miner demands an 100Gbps optical connection shoved up his ass doesn't mean squat for Billy Bob in the backwoods of Virgina.

Innovation?
Is bendable fiber NOT innovation?

How about trying to outpace countries with much faster speeds?
See Korean WoW gold miner.

I guess that doesn't mean much to ISP's here in the U.S.
Just as the US market means squat to the rest of the world. The Australian and UK markets don't capitulate to demands from the rest of the world telling them to go unmetered. Belgium doesn't give a rats ass that some Sweedish pirate has fiber to the home. Someone from South Africa doesn't care that his neighbor country just to the north doesn't have ANY broadband.

Every market is different. And we are not the typical broadband user. Just because people on dslreports.com are clamoring for the 100Gbps optical link shoved up our asses doesn't mean that the users in Bumblefuck, VA demand it, or even someone next door.
Hi Ignorant America! Haven't talked to you in awhile.
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bender @ 25th Sep 01:17PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

ok. i get your argument about anything > 25mbps is overkill.

but explain to me why the connection that I have at the Office, which is symmetrical 100mbps, is so much better than my 18mbps service at home?

I seriously don't see how companies can say that there is no difference when I use the faster service and I obviously see a difference. a HUGE difference if i may be so bold.
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funchords @ 25th Sep 01:18PM:
Cablevision's 101 Mbps+ is a parlor trick!

said by Karl Bode's article :

Given the product is the marketing equivalent of a drop kick aimed squarely at Verizon's face, it wasn't surprising to see Verizon quickly downplay the offering, calling it little more than a "parlor trick."
It absolutely is a Parlor Trick. If these were doors, Cablevision's product would be made out of mosquito mesh and Verizon's would be made out of oak.

In Cablevision's land, no two customers on the same node can access 101 Mbps at the same time. They've taken the "up to XXX Mbps" concept to it's extreme.

In Verizon's land, consumers can have confidence that they will access the speeds that they are sold, despite their neighbor's use.

Let's reward Verizon for calling a duck a duck when the duck really is a duck!
--
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Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
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JTRockville @ 25th Sep 01:30PM:
No reason to hurry.

I'm perfectly happy with one of their lowest tiers (15/2). Verizon's got that reliability thing going for 'em, which has always been more important to me than speed - particularly "phony" speeds you'll never reliably achieve, or that come in "bursts", or that you just plain can't get because the plant is noisy (which is all I ever got from Verizon's competitor).
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tschmidt @ 25th Sep 01:53PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Luminaris :

So what's the point of other countries having 2-3X the speed we have then? Is it a need? That's what I wonder.
Residential speed is a chicken N egg problem.

Application and service providers are not going to develop applications that need very high speed until there is a large enough population of users to justify it. If we were all still constrained to dialup most of the applications and services we take for granted today would not be practical.

Video libraries and video on demand is very demanding. HD feed requires about 15 Mbps. For a family of four the sweet spot is 100 Mbps. 3-D when it happens will need even more bandwidth.

Telecommuting is popular but often limited by how quickly data flows between employee and office.

New immersive games and virtual reality all require high capacity fast connections.

Ultimately the upper bound is driven by human physiology and compression algorithms.

/tom
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Sammer @ 25th Sep 01:55PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

said by bender :

but explain to me why the connection that I have at the Office, which is symmetrical 100mbps, is so much better than my 18mbps service at home?
Probably because your advertised 18mbps at home is a "best effort" service that isn't anywhere near that consistently while your office is paying lots of money for a "guaranteed" service level.
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Krisnatharok @ 25th Sep 02:00PM:
Forget 100 Mbps, I'd be happy with regular Fios!

Because, apparently, right smack-dab in the middle of urban northern VA / DC suburbs, I'm too far "out there" to get Fios to my apartment. Comcast internet is something like $55 just for 10/2 where I am; because there is no competition, there are no price breaks.
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aaronwt @ 25th Sep 02:08PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

said by Dan Rayburn :

I have Verizon FiOS. I used to have 50Mbps but went back down to 25Mbps as I could not find anything that worked better or faster with 50Mbps. For the average consumer, 25Mbps is more than plenty for now. Verizon is right, 100Mbps is simply wasteful and overkill.
I definitely had no problem using all 50mbs when I had the 50mbs tier. But I dropped my tier to the 25/15(although I wish they had the 35/20 tier here) in protest of them screwing my speeds up in June. I regularly maxed out my 50mbs connection when I had it.
And i do miss it when it takes me twice as long to download a 5GB or 6GB movie from Xbox Live or PSN or other large files online that would max out my conne ction. PSN would almost always max my 50mbs connection and XBL would hit 40mbs to 50mbs.
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psx_defector @ 25th Sep 02:21PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Luminaris :

Wow, just, WOW. Dude, you got issues
Only issue I got is people demanding ridiculous levels of bandwidth for absolutely no reason.

"People in Korea get 100Gbps shoved up their asses where ever they go, why doesn't AT&T do that for me in Bumblefuck, VA? They ain't being competitive!!"

Do we hear:

"People in Amsterdam get to smoke pot and screw hookers all day. Why doesn't America allow that? They ain't being competitive!!!!"

Every market is different. People need to quit thinking that something half way around the world has any bearing on what we do here in the States.

You don't need 100Mbps. Don't give me crap about video, VPNers, and games driving the need for more bandwidth. Piracy was the killer app for broadband expansion at the beginning of the decade, and piracy is the killer app that will drive broadband expansion into the next. For every bit of bandwidth you spend looking at videos, I bet you there are two or three BitTorrent client running full boar up and down.

Verizon has the ability to provide the mythical 100Gbps fiber run up your ass. Normal people don't need it, normal people don't want it.
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Sammer @ 25th Sep 02:23PM:
Re: Hey America, look at our super mega fast network.

When the FCC presents a national broadband plan next February 2 Mbps should be the immediate goal but 50 Mbps seems about right for an intermediate goal. Verizon is right that anything faster than that for homes (obviously business could use 100 Mbps) is simply marketing hype at this time.
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thender @ 25th Sep 02:27PM:
50 mbps you can use

beats 100 mbps you can't.

If one ran their connection 24/7, Verizon won't care. Cablevision will most likely cut them off. It's not like they don't have a longstanding history of this behavior.

Verizon is smart. They don't want to expand too quickly and leave themselves thin in the case that people actually want to use the 100 mbps.
--
Macbook repair in NYC
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Van @ 25th Sep 02:28PM:
Re: It's OK

I am currently forced to have Verizon 3mb DSL

It's so slow....I want to cry
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backness @ 25th Sep 02:54PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by psx_defector :

said by Luminaris :

Wow, just, WOW. Dude, you got issues
Only issue I got is people demanding ridiculous levels of bandwidth for absolutely no reason.

First, who do you think you are that you can tell someone what their reasons for wanting a fast connection are?

Second, the equiment costs are based on a global marketplace.

So if it is possible in Sweeden it is possible in Los Angles.

Please get off your soap box
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patcat88 @ 25th Sep 02:56PM:
BPON

So what about all the existing BPON homes prior to 2008? Verizon going to go back and force every customer to go through an ONT replacement to GPON so they can sell 100 in the neighborhood? Or 1 block that is BPON won't have 100, the other block that is newer has GPON and it will have 100?
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psx_defector @ 25th Sep 03:12PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by backness :

First, who do you think you are that you can tell someone what their reasons for wanting a fast connection are?
Because that's what people do with their connections. Don't act like it's not.

Second, the equiment costs are based on a global marketplace.
No, they are not. A good example. I'm buying a Draytek Vigor 2820Vn. I can get it for either $250US or £180GBP. It comes from the same factory in mainland China, but what's the difference in cost? Regulatory difference make for a lot of cost difference between countries. Not only in bandwidth costs, but CPE and core infrastructure.

So if it is possible in Sweeden it is possible in Los Angles.
Never said it wasn't, but don't expect to get a 100Gbps fiber drop in Bumblefuck, VA. There is no way that it's cost effective.
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RARPSL @ 25th Sep 03:13PM:
Re: Cablevision's 101 Mbps+ is a parlor trick!

said by funchords :

said by Karl Bode's article :

Given the product is the marketing equivalent of a drop kick aimed squarely at Verizon's face, it wasn't surprising to see Verizon quickly downplay the offering, calling it little more than a "parlor trick."
It absolutely is a Parlor Trick. If these were doors, Cablevision's product would be made out of mosquito mesh and Verizon's would be made out of oak.

In Cablevision's land, no two customers on the same node can access 101 Mbps at the same time. They've taken the "up to XXX Mbps" concept to it's extreme.

Forget about 2 Ultra (101/15) users on the same node and look at one plus lots of Boost (30/5) users on the node. Although DOCSIS 3 supports 4 bonded frequencies, CV only is supplying 3 right now and one is being shared with the Boost Users on that node. I am not sure if the Bonding uses all the available bandwidth on each frequency or splits the load equally across each frequency (ie: It will only use 3 times the available bandwidth of the currently most loaded frequency instead of attempting to max-out all the frequencies). The net result is that due to the use of the Boost Frequency there is less available for the Ultra user to bond to the dedicated Ultra-Only Frequencies. Eventually/Hopefully CV will go to the full 4 Frequencies as well as making them all Ultra-Only ones (or at least make it 3 Ultras plus the Shared Boost).
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anon @ 25th Sep 03:20PM:
You know it's funny...

That the fios fanboys are trying hard to downplay OOL's offering just so they can feel better. Meanwhile these are the same punks complaining about speed.
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Gbcue @ 25th Sep 05:05PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by tschmidt :

said by Luminaris :

So what's the point of other countries having 2-3X the speed we have then? Is it a need? That's what I wonder.
Residential speed is a chicken N egg problem.

Application and service providers are not going to develop applications that need very high speed until there is a large enough population of users to justify it. If we were all still constrained to dialup most of the applications and services we take for granted today would not be practical.

Video libraries and video on demand is very demanding. HD feed requires about 15 Mbps. For a family of four the sweet spot is 100 Mbps. 3-D when it happens will need even more bandwidth.

Telecommuting is popular but often limited by how quickly data flows between employee and office.

New immersive games and virtual reality all require high capacity fast connections.

Ultimately the upper bound is driven by human physiology and compression algorithms.

/tom
Is it really a Chicken/Egg problem?

Remember when everybody was going from dial-up to broadband? Was it done for fun? No, it was done because application providers were already thinking of the future.

The same needs to be done for broadband speed. When people get fed up of waiting for an HD stream to load over their 10Mbit connection, they'll soon jump, like how we all did to broadband.
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SteveK @ 25th Sep 03:31PM:
Happy with 25/15

I had 5/2 service with FIOS (somehow I missed the free upgrade to 10/2). I was on a triple-play package with TV Essentials, and found that I could upgrade to Extreme HD for only $10 a month more. That gives me MANY more HD channels, and in addition the very knowledgeable customer service rep told me that upgraded package would give me 25/15 Internet at no extra cost. The only catch was that I had to agree to a new one-year commitment, but I also have a two-year price guarantee.

I could hardly believe it, but it happened as she described. I'm extremely happy with 25/15, which is more than I can foresee needing anytime soon.
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jdjbuffalo @ 25th Sep 03:34PM:
Re: Forget 100 Mbps, I'd be happy with regular Fios!

said by Krisnatharok :

Because, apparently, right smack-dab in the middle of urban northern VA / DC suburbs, I'm too far "out there" to get Fios to my apartment. Comcast internet is something like $55 just for 10/2 where I am; because there is no competition, there are no price breaks.
This!

I'm stuck on a 5mbit/512kbit cable connection. I can't wait to get off of it!
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anon @ 25th Sep 03:44PM:
Re: HD is still compressed a LOT

Most can hardly notice the difference between dvd and hd. Anything beyond 1080p is just marketing. ( next pointless craze = 3d )
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WC813 @ 25th Sep 03:40PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

There are a lot of things that can make it different.

Where I work I have a 50mb internet connection with dual connections on a SONNET ring with TW and fractional 10mb on a DS3 with Level3. The latenacy on the TW is less than the Level3 connection. Why? how it is delievered and the peering depending on end point that we are trying to access.

The same is true for you and your ISP. I live in the northen part of Tampa, Fl and when I try to access a site in Tampa on my Fios I go all the way to Atalanta and then back to Tampa to get the site. When I was on Brighthouse I would stay in the metro area.

With Fios I am not bogged down with the traffic on my node. When I was on Brighthouse I would get bogged down during the busy times.

There are so many things that could make a difference.
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majortom1029 @ 25th Sep 04:02PM:
Re: 50 mbps you can use

said by thender :

beats 100 mbps you can't.

If one ran their connection 24/7, Verizon won't care. Cablevision will most likely cut them off. It's not like they don't have a longstanding history of this behavior.

Verizon is smart. They don't want to expand too quickly and leave themselves thin in the case that people actually want to use the 100 mbps.
I bet you havent been with cablevision in the past 2 years. Cablevision stopped with the capping.
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majortom1029 @ 25th Sep 04:04PM:
hmm

Actually if you look at the cablevision forumns it seems like more users jumped on the ultra ship then cablevision thought.
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WC813 @ 25th Sep 04:09PM:
Re: You know it's funny...

Yep, I'm a fan of Fios because it is the best service I have ever had with a ISP. I have used Cox, BellSouth, BrightHouse, RR, VZ DSL, Embarq DSL.

Can't downplay OOL because I can't get it.

So what was your point?
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anon @ 25th Sep 05:46PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by psx_defector :

Do we hear:

"People in Amsterdam get to smoke pot and screw hookers all day. Why doesn't America allow that? They ain't being competitive!!!!"
Well it would solve a lot of money issues with our gov. and would have a lot less people in our crowded prisons. Which the people are starting to realize and why there is such a push for re-legalizing pot and don't get me started on hookers. There's a profession that has been there since the dawn of time for men.
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jmn1207 @ 25th Sep 04:19PM:
Re: BPON

They would only have to replace the equipment as necessary. This has been covered in the Verizon forums before. Most of the CO's have both BPON and GPON OLT's, if you can believe what the FiOS tech's are saying. If more capacity is required, Verizon has stated that new equipment would be installed, and those few customers ordering the faster tiers might need to have their ONT's replaced.

They could also reduce the number of node spits, in some cases. Last I saw, my area is GPON with 16 splits. We shouldn't have any problems here if they ever decide to offer faster speeds.

Also, it would not be too surprising for Verizon to only offer faster speeds in specific areas where GPON was exclusive. They already break their speed offerings into segregated niches, such as a 35/20 tier only to NY metro area customers.
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battleop @ 25th Sep 04:26PM:
Re: Keeping pace

It's mostly a my d**k is bigger than yours. Nothing more.
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Agent Smith @ 25th Sep 04:52PM:
Re: hmm

But it cant keep a 100mb |99% QOS| 99.9% consistent speeds that FiOS can day and night can it?.
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NY Tel @ 25th Sep 05:20PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

said by Dan Rayburn :

I have Verizon FiOS. I used to have 50Mbps but went back down to 25Mbps as I could not find anything that worked better or faster with 50Mbps. For the average consumer, 25Mbps is more than plenty for now. Verizon is right, 100Mbps is simply wasteful and overkill.
Is this "Streaming Dan"?
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ravensfan55 @ 25th Sep 05:58PM:
Re: You know it's funny...

Good luck getting your full 101mbps all the time.
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Eat Me @ 25th Sep 06:18PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Gbcue :

said by tschmidt :

said by Luminaris :

So what's the point of other countries having 2-3X the speed we have then? Is it a need? That's what I wonder.
Residential speed is a chicken N egg problem.

Application and service providers are not going to develop applications that need very high speed until there is a large enough population of users to justify it. If we were all still constrained to dialup most of the applications and services we take for granted today would not be practical.

Video libraries and video on demand is very demanding. HD feed requires about 15 Mbps. For a family of four the sweet spot is 100 Mbps. 3-D when it happens will need even more bandwidth.

Telecommuting is popular but often limited by how quickly data flows between employee and office.

New immersive games and virtual reality all require high capacity fast connections.

Ultimately the upper bound is driven by human physiology and compression algorithms.

/tom
Is it really a Chicken/Egg problem?

Remember when everybody was going from dial-up to broadband? Was it done for fun? No, it was done because application providers were already thinking of the future.

The same needs to be done for broadband speed. When people get fed up of waiting for an HD stream to load over their 10Mbit connection, they'll soon jump, like how we all did to broadband.
The first people I knew who got broadband (that neat new service from the phone company called a "digital subscriber line") got it to run FTP sites to trade pirated music files.

I honestly didn't begin to see applications that needed broadband until after 2002 or so. Maybe there were, but I didn't see them.

100Mbps isn't really needed for HD streaming video right now. In fact you can do that on a 10M connection with MPEG4 compression.
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Eat Me @ 25th Sep 06:21PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by backness :

First, who do you think you are that you can tell someone what their reasons for wanting a fast connection are?
OK, so you tell us what your need for a fast connection is...
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kxrm @ 25th Sep 06:25PM:
I think the bigger picture is...

that they don't want to have to explain to consumers why their computer isn't able to get 100Mbps from some rinky dink server in El Paso on a 10Mbps line.

Offering such a fast connection comes with expectations of the Internet that are just not there yet. I'd love to 100Mbps up and down at my house but I am also a network and software developer and I understand what the Internet can do. Average consumers don't need it and quite frankly would probably not understand it. I hope that Verizon would consider offering it at a business level though.
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Boogeyman @ 25th Sep 07:12PM:
Re: Just do it

I hate to say it, but I agree with the telco here. I have a hard time maxing out my 8/1 connection. In fact, the only time I have sustained peak speeds for more than a few seconds is when I was getting a linux distro off bittorrent. Yes I would like a faster connection, but 100mbps? Unless I tried downloading from all three pc's, the Wii and the PS3, I doubt I could even saturate a 50mbps connection. Until the connections that are sending packets to you can sustain 100mbps to multiple users, I just dont see a real need for it.
--
Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am
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Boogeyman @ 25th Sep 07:27PM:
Re: Keeping pace

I'm more concerned with his obsession with having glass fibers inserted rectally.

He has a point though. While piracy was a factor in the jump from 56k to broadband, it was a very small one. I remember waiting minutes for pages to load, especially if they had a lot of graphical content. For me, the ability to check the news and my email and all that in less than an hour was the big draw to broadband.

But now? The only time I have to wait, is when I am downloading large files. Streaming video works great, even on multiple pc's on the same connection. With even a 30mbps you can stream mutiple HD streams. Sure they are crap quality, but until more than just 20% (number was pulled from the same location where Korean WoW gold farmers put there fiber connections) of internet users can even get a connection greater than 10mbps, the content providers really have no incentive to offer it any faster or at a better quality.
--
Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am
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Boogeyman @ 25th Sep 07:31PM:
Re: Keeping pace

You must not get out, answer the phone, or especially, read the net, much. ;)

Remember, ignorance is everywhere. And someone, somewhere, thinks you are ignorant..
--
Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am
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bender @ 25th Sep 07:33PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Boogeyman :

You must not get out, answer the phone, or especially, read the net, much. ;)

Remember, ignorance is everywhere. And someone, somewhere, thinks you are ignorant..
i concede that I am ignorant. there is a difference.
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Eat Me @ 25th Sep 08:48PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

said by bender :

ok. i get your argument about anything > 25mbps is overkill.

but explain to me why the connection that I have at the Office, which is symmetrical 100mbps, is so much better than my 18mbps service at home?

I seriously don't see how companies can say that there is no difference when I use the faster service and I obviously see a difference. a HUGE difference if i may be so bold.
At my office we have 150M symmetrical, but only because we upload lots of video (that we create). Honestly I don't see a difference between home and work unless I'm uploading/downloading large files, such as a 4 gig core dump to tech support.
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bender @ 25th Sep 09:03PM:
Re: 50Mbps is overkill

and i bet you did more than "notice" a difference. unless you did some bandwidth throttling it became unusable.
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psx_defector @ 25th Sep 10:05PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Boogeyman :

I'm more concerned with his obsession with having glass fibers inserted rectally.
Well, you know those Asians and their freaky ways.

I guess the metaphor was lost on people.

While piracy was a factor in the jump from 56k to broadband, it was a very small one.
One word for you, Napster.

The only reason why I went to high speed back in '98 was for warez. That 256/64 pipe kicked ass.

Right now, BitTorrent and it's derivative uses is the killer app driving bigger and bigger pipes. The ease of use drives more and more idiots to sucking down bandwidth. Back in the day, warez was more of an art and required a bit of knowledge, like knowing how to combine news group parts, compression schemes, and multipart archives. Now, you go to Mininova, download a file, and everything comes in.

As more and more pirates get online, they start saturating the pipe. They leave it on while they are away, running full boar all the time. Video, even in it's most crazy uncompressed size, doesn't compare. At least video stops sometimes.
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kd6cae @ 26th Sep 12:46AM:
I'd be happy with just an upload increase

I live just outside a small FIOS area. If I could get it though, which I likely never will be able to, I would and would likely get 20/20, because I do online backup and let me tell you TWC in this part of Socal doesn't even deliver the 2Mbit/sec upstream speeds they claim to offer. The fastest I can get is 1.2-1.3Mbit/sec upstream, which results in me only uploading at 150 kilobytes/sec tops when I should be uploading at around 240K/sec. I got the chance last Christmas to use FIOS 20/5 via wireless at a friends place and I so wanted to find a way to get that at my house. Maybe 1 day it'll happen I can hope. If a user wants 100mbps it should at least be an option. If users want more in the way of upload, that also should be an option, even if only a handful of users get it. When FIOS first came on the sceen, the top tier was 30/5, then 20/20 was introduced. Why aren't they willing to do say 100/50? Why not 50/50? Why in even verizon FIOS is there only 1 symetric tier?
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tmc8080 @ 26th Sep 07:03AM:
what I need!

screw 100mbits... just LOWER YOUR GOD DAMNED PRICES for what you got!

That's the ticket to getting more consumers back.. the real deal is BOTTOM LINE PRICE. $65-75 for 25/15 is kind of pricey as it is.. that should be the range for DUAL PLAY with a voip phone line.. oh wait.. they don't want to offer VOIP service.. right... they'd rather force you to subsidize the fcc for at least $6+ each month so that the fcc can sing their cherry pickng, competition limiting, greedy corporate ways. The hard work of competition means sacrificing earning to force your competition to cut prices too and/or offer more for less!

IMO, this triple play b/s is the real parlor trick. MEMO TO VERIZON: nobody wants that deal in ny metro-- its too expensive (even for a more stable FTTP service), so BYE.. I'll check back in 3-4 months and see what you got then.
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backness @ 26th Sep 10:30AM:
Re: Keeping pace

So you have identified 2 issues:

1) More and more people are into online content
2) Existing DSL is not fast enough for peoples needs

The fact that there are limited sources for fairly priced online goods is a misnomer.

As far as I can see, people need a quality connection with no cap to be able to have free access to the content that will eventually come online. Without a state of the art network, what you are saying is true. With a state of the art network a new marketplace forms and content producers can interact directly with their customers. We can remove the whole hollywood value chain model and replace it with direct content delivery.

The linch pin of the whole concept relies on state of the art networks.
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jmn1207 @ 26th Sep 01:59PM:
Re: I'd be happy with just an upload increase

said by kd6cae :

Why in even verizon FIOS is there only 1 symetric tier?
Actually, there are no official symmetrical tiers offered for FiOS. The 20/20 tier is no longer available to new customers. The following list is what can be ordered now.

50/20
35/20 (NY Metro areas only)
25/15
15/5

I say these are the official tiers, because Verizon has been over-provisioning most of these speed tiers. Sustained download/upload tests, and not just unreliable, online speed tests, indicate that the 35/20 tier is 35/35 and both the 25/15 and 15/5 tiers are provisioned at 25/25.

It's been like this since the price hike that was implemented a few months ago. Those with existing 20/5 and 20/20 service have continued to keep their current speed tiers, but in order to continue saving money once their agreement term expires, they are required to select one of the new tiers or pay for month-to-month stand-alone prices going forward.
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psx_defector @ 26th Sep 04:03PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by backness :

So you have identified 2 issues:

1) More and more people are into online content
Pirated online content. Don't believe for a second everyone is only streaming Hulu 24x7, both up and down.

2) Existing DSL is not fast enough for peoples needs
It's plenty fast for people's current needs with regards to legit online content. You don't need to download a song from iTunes in less than 1 second, you can't stream the video from Hulu any faster than what the video plays at. Where the "demand" is coming from is people "demanding" they download 100GB worth of Steam patches and games, download the song from iTunes in 1 second, and watch full screen HD on three TVs.

People always quote the "Oh, well my family will do all that together." People forget that the majority of the subscribers out there are us single people. Do we need 15 HD streams coming in?

As far as I can see, people need a quality connection with no cap to be able to have free access to the content that will eventually come online. Without a state of the art network, what you are saying is true. With a state of the art network a new marketplace forms and content producers can interact directly with their customers. We can remove the whole hollywood value chain model and replace it with direct content delivery.
Considering that the content makers are NOT leaning that way, why spend all that money on building something they don't want to use and the majority of users don't need? People act like online content will change every facet of our lives, online social networking is where we will find our next wife, and CuFme will be how we procreate. It just ain't gonna happen, not in our lifetimes.

Despite what you think, the consumer doesn't control the way content comes to you. Hence why piracy, pirates in it for the content and not the ones who are trying to turn a buck, is a big draw. The providers of content will never concede to giving away their product. Honest users will always be there, so their revenue stream will never dry up. They will never stop in stopping piracy. Just as they will never stop piracy.
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jimbo2150 @ 26th Sep 06:22PM:
Re: Just do it

I'd be happy with a 5/5. I think it's fully realistic to for most companies to provide that at least out to the suburbs (maybe not rural areas).
--

- "Techie" Jim
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backness @ 26th Sep 08:46PM:
Re: Keeping pace

Because a computer will only ever need 64k of memory.
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cork1958 @ 26th Sep 10:36PM:
One line says it all

"For now, Verizon believes their top offering of 50 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up is more than enough bandwidth for the average user."

Even that is WAY, WAY more than any regular internet (home) user needs. Anyone saying differently, plainly has to much money or is one of those types that has to have it simply because it's there.
--
The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/
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Vamp @ 27th Sep 06:38AM:
Re: Just do it

said by Boogeyman :

I hate to say it, but I agree with the telco here. I have a hard time maxing out my 8/1 connection. In fact, the only time I have sustained peak speeds for more than a few seconds is when I was getting a linux distro off bittorrent. Yes I would like a faster connection, but 100mbps? Unless I tried downloading from all three pc's, the Wii and the PS3, I doubt I could even saturate a 50mbps connection. Until the connections that are sending packets to you can sustain 100mbps to multiple users, I just dont see a real need for it.
Hmm I can max my 25mbit from many servers, infact today I have downloaded a 120mb Nvidia driver and a 1GB+ game demo and each went close to my 25megabit (3+ MB/s).. A lot of servers give high speeds for me.

Could it just be that your provider cant properly provide your 8/1?
--
20/20 FIOS || MSN Msgr: scott001^gmail_com
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bsoft @ 27th Sep 07:48AM:
Re: Keeping pace

Pirated online content. Don't believe for a second everyone is only streaming Hulu 24x7, both up and down.
Go look at actual studies of bandwidth usage rather than what the MPAA/RIAA is spewing. P2P is not the #1 bandwidth category, Internet video (primarily YouTube) is.

Maybe you don't use MLB.tv, CNN's online video, CBS.com, Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, Blockbuster Online Access, or YouTube. But the stats say that there are a hell of a lot more people using legal services than pirating. For one thing, it's considerably easier.

It's plenty fast for people's current needs with regards to legit online content. You don't need to download a song from iTunes in less than 1 second, you can't stream the video from Hulu any faster than what the video plays at.
Hulu provides low-resolution, low-bitrate videos because people have shitty DSL connections. Go watch a Blu-ray disc and compare it to Hulu or even Netflix's online "HD". Now tell me why it's unreasonable to want the same level of quality from Internet video.

Where the "demand" is coming from is people "demanding" they download 100GB worth of Steam patches and games, download the song from iTunes in 1 second, and watch full screen HD on three TVs.
Oh, I see, we should buy all of our software in cardboard boxes, wait 20 minutes to download an album, and watch crappy low-resolution Internet video.

People demand better service than they did in 2002. My GPU is easily 50x faster than it was in 2002. My CPU is at least 10x faster (depending on how you consider multicore). I have 16x more memory, 20x more disk space, and a monitor that's twice as large and quadruple the resolution.

So, yeah, do I expect to be able to stream HD video? Yes. Do I expect to be able to download games and other software quickly? Yes. Do I expect to be able to download music without waiting for minutes? Yes.

People always quote the "Oh, well my family will do all that together." People forget that the majority of the subscribers out there are us single people. Do we need 15 HD streams coming in?
No one needs ANY HD streams. What we *want* is an Internet connection where we don't have to think, "Oh crap, I ran out of bandwidth!". Being able to pull Fedora and watch Netflix at the same time would be a start.

Despite what you think, the consumer doesn't control the way content comes to you.
History disagrees. Hollywood fought TV and the VCR. We won. The TV networks fought DVRs. We won. Record companies refused to sell DRM-free music. We won.

Every single time some new technology comes along, the content companies bitch and moan. And then they fold. And of course, the technologies that are supposed to kill them never actually do.

Every time a technological advance is made, someone tries to rain on the parade by claiming that the technology is unnecessary. What would anyone do with a 1GB hard drive? What would anyone do with a 1.5Mbps connection all to themself? What would anyone do with a dual-core CPU?

The thing is, we ALWAYS find a use. Maybe the future is 4x HD resolution, or 3D, or higher color depth. Maybe it's games with better graphics (and larger patches), software as a service, or PCs that boot over the Internet.

The great thing about the Internet is that the people who own the pipes don't get to decide how they are filled. YouTube couldn't have existed in a world of dial-up. Steam doesn't fly on 256k DSL. And Netflix won't be able to stop mailing discs around until we all have 10Mbps+.

We are talking about the end of content distribution as we know it. Now, I don't think that the future of entertainment is teenagers making videos on YouTube. But I do think that you have to be crazy to believe that the future of entertainment is watching one of the 140 channels you subscribe to. The future is anything, anytime. The Internet is the technology that enables that future. That's why 100Mbps matters.
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ShadezeRO @ 27th Sep 11:24AM:
Re: Just do it

I max my uVerse 18 every day.

I'm ready for more!
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ironwalker @ 27th Sep 01:35PM:
Re: One line says it all

If you don't want it, dont take it. Stay on a low tier if it is offered.
Personally I'd like to download all day if I had the sources, video confrence with friends from another state without the video and audio stuttering, stream my entire music collection to 10 friends,run a web server and maybe offer all my photos on it.
There are a ton of things I'd like to do but am limited and I have OOL boost bottom tier. I max my connection almost all day on the download.
I'd like to backup offline as well and even run a few different servers to the www.

As someone above mentioned, all the average pc ever will need is 64k. Some of you sound just like the guy who made that ignorant statement...lol. Just because you as an individual has no need and or got 200% faster internet then what you used to have doesn't mean we don't need it.

I have had OOL since they came out, I always had a fast line. Before that I had earthlink dial up...jebus I hated that.

The future is comeing and there is no way to stop it. If the pipe fattens then its never ending, the possibilities out there for developers to play around with. I embrace it.
Everyone should have lite speed. Maybe we can get hardware manufacturers to make litespeed with hardware like hard drives to keep up the pace. I say lets make a fat piped world with lite speed hardware...instant everything!
--
Live Free or Die!
www.sidux.com
www.chronixradio.com


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scoopy03 @ 27th Sep 03:16PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Eat Me :

100Mbps isn't really needed for HD streaming video right now. In fact you can do that on a 10M connection with MPEG4 compression.
one hd tv stream will use all that up in one connection. and say your dad wants his news from a "newsgroup" and mom wants to watch her missed episode of her soap opera and the son wants to download the newest mmorpg or demos. the daughter may want to upload her hundreds of pictures to facebook/myspace or something like that. how frustrated with that family be with a 10M connection.
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anon @ 27th Sep 04:51PM:
Re: Just do it

I cant wait to see more than freaking 1mb upload speeds, just think of what it could do for torrents and file sharing! I hate trying to upload at 100kb/s and my internet running like crap... people who don't upload things obviously do not see the desire for faster internet speeds.
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tschmidt @ 27th Sep 06:02PM:
Re: Keeping pace

said by Eat Me :

100Mbps isn't really needed for HD streaming video right now. In fact you can do that on a 10M connection with MPEG4 compression.
Broadcast quality HDTV is about 15 Mbps - was set that way to fit into the 19 Mbps available. More advanced compression algorithms reduce requirement a little more. But bottom line, high resolution full motion video takes a lot of bandwidth.

Assuming a typical family of four connection needs 60 Mbps in order to deliver individual HD streams, exclusive of everything else to each family member.

That is why 100 Mbps is the sweet spot for residential broadband. Also happens to be a standard Ethernet speed.

/tom
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Anonymous_ @ 27th Sep 08:10PM:
Re: HD is still compressed a LOT

said by neufuse :

uh no one is ever going to offer uncompressed video when its digital..... MPEG2/4 are always going to be compressed some even at the highest bit rate... and HDTV standard runs at what 18-25 Mbit?
mpeg 4 @600Mbps is sweet
i seen a few seconds worth of video @ at wopping 2GB! file
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artie @ 27th Sep 09:30PM:
Hardcore users

are NEVER target customers.... :)
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anon @ 28th Sep 07:47AM:
Re: Keeping pace

There's also the effect this has on P2P networks. If an increased dl limit is accompanied by a subsequent increase in the upload limit, then those who have that higher limit could provide faster uploads through bit torrent and the like. So once more can provide it, that'll push the BT downloads a bit more. Until more can upload faster however, they won't be feeding it.

At least where p2p networks are involved, increasing BW on a residential lines can help the p2p d/l go faster (by providing faster uploads from other peers).
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margaf77 @ 28th Sep 04:47AM:
Re: You know it's funny...

said by ScrewVerizon :

That the fios fanboys are trying hard to downplay OOL's offering just so they can feel better. Meanwhile these are the same punks complaining about speed.
I have 30/5 Boost in NJ and when they can actually deliver what they offer at a time other than 3am then talk until then your just an OOL fanboy talking out of his a@@.
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threegsus @ 28th Sep 05:30AM:
Re: Keeping pace

Hey battleop,
said by battleop :

...mostly a my d**k is bigger than yours...
Of course in my case, mine is... :D
Whaddaya want, Corvettes should be banned, too?
Regards
--
Best reason for living in the Now —
"In the long run, we'll all be dead." John Maynard Keynes
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