Will 'Three Strikes' Come To The United States? - Magic eight ball says: probably, yes.

Will 'Three Strikes' Come To The United States? - Magic eight ball says: probably, yes.
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Will 'Three Strikes' Come To The United States?
Magic eight ball says: probably, yes.
06:26PM Thursday Nov 05 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · Fileswapping · business · world

The entertainment industry would really like ISPs to play content police, booting P2P users from their networks. But given ISPs don't want to take on the added expense and liability for an effort that might not work anyway, the entertainment industry will try to pass laws forcing them to. While such "three strikes" laws have seen more luck in France and the UK than here, it seems like only a matter of time before they take root. Wired News points out how the MPAA wrote a letter to the FCC this week urging Congress to take action:

"Working in cooperation with ISPs, MPAA’s member studios and other creators can utilize a variety of technological tools and policy approaches to address the threat of unlawful conduct online,” reads the MPAA’s letter. “These efforts, which include graduated response policies as well as technologies such as watermarking and filtering, have proven to be successful in various contexts,” the group continues.

Which "various contexts" aren't cited but should be, given most instances of filtering and watermarking have proven to be abject failures in stopping piracy. As Wired notes, while the entertainment industry has pushed for Internet filters for some time, this is the first time that Hollywood has specifically started pushing for booting people off the Internet. It's likely that if the RIAA and MPAA can't pay Congress enough to create the laws, they're likely slip them through via the behind-closed-doors ACTA International trade agreement.

This is assuming ISPs don't ultimately decide to employ "graduated response" systems voluntarily. Cox Communications already employs a system whereby heavy P2P users are booted from the network, though Cox insists that they only terminate a tiny number of overall subscriber connections, and after ample warning. But such voluntary efforts certainly don't go as far as the entertainment industry would like, given there's nothing stopping a Cox user from migrating to another ISP (assuming they have one to choose from).

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Forums »

AVonGauss @ 5th Nov 06:33PM:
Magic Eight Ball

My magic eight ball says...

The more stupid that the content producers get through their masquerading organizations, MPAA/RIAA, the less I will buy.

The Senator or Representative who votes in favor of this, gets a nay vote from me next time around.

If my ISP starts voluntarily spying and cooperating on an endeavor such as this, and the ISP next door doesn't, guess what happens...

Does this mean I am downloading illegal music, tv shows, movies, etc? No. Just, enough is enough...
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Simba7 @ 5th Nov 06:42PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

I agree. With this, what's stopping the entertainment from making every country install "The Great Firewall" into every ISPs network?

..and pretty much kiss all your freedom goodbye. If you say something or do something, it'll be logged and your connection might be terminated.

Would anyone like to take the Constitution to the shredder soon?
--
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GolfDude @ 5th Nov 06:43PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

how about if they are caught accusing somebody and they are found innocent, the suing party has to PAY for that persons internet service for LIFE! Its the ultimate penalty for these lobbyist toolbags... you want to accuse the innocent, then pay the price...
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anon @ 5th Nov 06:45PM:
mpaa are idiots

They are trying to take away our freedoms and rights. If it passes it will show how corrupt the government is and how its really run by corporations. Mpaa has no right to disconnect anyone, they are just a company.
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Joe12345678 @ 5th Nov 06:45PM:
How logn be this become a DDoS tool.

How logn be this become a DDoS tool?

used to shut down bad reviews of just about any thing.

What happens when some big people get shut off with no court order.

Also going to far may end of having the first amendment being used to say that this law is unconstitutional.

Used to by pass count orders to open stuff up.

Brake Americans with Disabilities Act laws buy locking out blind from books and other stuff.
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Lazlow @ 5th Nov 06:48PM:
Encryption

All this will do is make the P2P crowd switche (entirely) to encrypted connections. Just look at the spooks response to this in the UK a couple of weeks ago. They considered it to be a threat to national security as it will dramatically increase the number of encrypted transmissions they have to sort through.
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r81984 @ 5th Nov 06:51PM:
Lose alot of their paying customers???

I doubt this would ever happen since they will start losing paying customers and it will hurt their profits.

I just can't see how there will be a specific law that says you cannot get internet. Anyways all a law like this would do is create a booming business for foreign VPN services.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
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Simba7 @ 5th Nov 06:52PM:
Re: Encryption

Heck, I'd be willing to snag up an OC3 (or higher) and run a series of VPN servers for people to keep their privacy.

I wonder how much it would cost.
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 06:53PM:
Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

It is a foregone conclusion that the Senate will OK this treaty. And that is mainly because it is the US(especially Hollywood) that is pushing other countries to sign it. Internet controls are just a small part of this treaty and anything in there on 3 strikes won't stop approval by the Senate.

The US is a HUGE exporter of "Intellectual Property" services. We don't make goods anymore in this country. We supply services and Hollywood is one of the very few exporters that still makes a profit for the US and contributes positively to the balance of trade.

The whole point of this treaty is to get other countries to STOP stealing US "Intellectual Property" and get them to agree to enforce Copyright & Patent laws which favor the US. So there is ZERO chance this treaty will be blocked by the Senate.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

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Simba7 @ 5th Nov 06:58PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

Better not. You want to see usage of encryption skyrocket and watch the NSA/CIA crap their pants?

EDIT: ooops.. Changed "use" to "see".
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David @ 5th Nov 06:58PM:
Re: Encryption

said by Lazlow :

All this will do is make the P2P crowd switche (entirely) to encrypted connections. Just look at the spooks response to this in the UK a couple of weeks ago. They considered it to be a threat to national security as it will dramatically increase the number of encrypted transmissions they have to sort through.

agreed plus you have private VPN tunnels as well like IPredator and relakks.com. You can buy a private VPN PPTP tunnel from them for about $75 a year and the sky is the limit on what you do with it.

I thought about going to newsgroups but it would only be a matter of time before they get targeted next. VPN would me much, much harder to target cause corporations use VPN tunnels as well.
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 07:02PM:
Re: Lose alot of their paying customers???

said by r81984 :

I doubt this would ever happen since they will start losing paying customers and it will hurt their profits.

I just can't see how there will be a specific law that says you cannot get internet. Anyways all a law like this would do is create a booming business for foreign VPN services.

It will happen thru the ACTA treaty. And there won't need to be a specific law. Just like the WTO rules supersede national laws, the ACTA will supersede national laws. Welcome to the new world order where international treaties take away US sovereignty and the Constitution is gutted thru US ok'ing these treaties.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

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Simba7 @ 5th Nov 07:02PM:
Re: Lose alot of their paying customers???

The question is.. Where?

One thing ACTA is set to do is make it worldwide. The only way you could pull it off is find a country with a huge internet backbone (what won't get cut off) and a strong backbone against the entertainment industry.

There's only 1 organization that pulled this off, but too bad the MPAA/RIAA changed the laws in said country and got them (soon to be) booted off.
--
Bresnan 15M/1M|MyWS[P4HT@4.01GHz,2GB RAM,2x1TB HDDs,Win7]|WifeWS[P4@2.4GHz,1GB RAM,60GB HDD,Win7]|Router[2xP3@1GHz,640MB RAM,18GB HDD,Allied Telesyn AT-2560FX,Kingston KNE100TX,2xDigital DE504,Compaq NC3131,iPro/1000DP,Blitz BWI715,Gentoo Linux]
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crese24 @ 5th Nov 07:02PM:
Lets all cancel our ISPs

If this comes to pass, why don't we all just say "bye bye, to the internet?" ISPs will drop like flies. MPAA is trying to hurt ISPs too, not just us common folk.
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 07:06PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

said by Simba7 :

Better not. You want to use usage of encryption skyrocket and watch the NSA/CIA crap their pants?

All that needs to be done is to outlaw encryption except to web sites like banks; Paypal; etc. Use of encryption to any other site can be outlawed in the treaty. So, use encryption to some P2P site - lose your internet access.
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TKJunkMail @ 5th Nov 07:08PM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

said by crese24 :

If this comes to pass, why don't we all just say "bye bye, to the internet?"

Right!! Except for some fanatics, no one will drop internet access just because they can't steal music & movies. Guess what - they will learn to pay for it or do without.
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Simba7 @ 5th Nov 07:19PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

If only a few get encryption, there goes VPN networks, secure websites, SSH, and at least a dozen handfuls of other services.

..not to mention the end of Open Source as we know it.

I don't think that'll happen without a massive uproar in society.
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Zoder @ 5th Nov 07:24PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

said by TKJunkMail :

All that needs to be done is to outlaw encryption except to web sites like banks; Paypal; etc. Use of encryption to any other site can be outlawed in the treaty. So, use encryption to some P2P site - lose your internet access.

That would be a big blow to dissidents in foreign countries with oppressive governments. Think about all of the news that got out of Iran through the internet during the post-election protests. Without encryption they are toast.
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Matt @ 5th Nov 07:27PM:
Re: Encryption

said by Simba7 :

Heck, I'd be willing to snag up an OC3 (or higher) and run a series of VPN servers for people to keep their privacy.

I wonder how much it would cost.

More than you make in an entire year, and they'd just shut down your upstream provider if you don't respond to the requests.

And Bittorrent encryption won't do any good, because everything still has to be unencrypted at some point. If you can download something, your provider can see exactly what it is.
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crese24 @ 5th Nov 07:29PM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

said by TKJunkMail :

said by crese24 :

If this comes to pass, why don't we all just say "bye bye, to the internet?"

Right!! Except for some fanatics, no one will drop internet access just because they can't steal music & movies. Guess what - they will learn to pay for it or do without.

People wouldn't download the stuff if it wasn't overpriced to begin with.
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brianiscool @ 5th Nov 07:30PM:
cool

I hope it does will scare away the newbs. lol
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Matt @ 5th Nov 07:31PM:
Much ado about nothing ... yet

So far all this uproar is based on a conversation that a US Trade official had with an EU official. There are no documents from the US proving any of this.

»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/1···ndering/

The leaked document is a three-page European Commission memo written by an unnamed EU official, which purports to summarizes a private briefing given in September by U.S. trade officials.

That's an afwul lot of uncertainty for the sky to be falling.
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karlmarx @ 5th Nov 07:36PM:
Re: Encryption

Umm, no, that's not true. If you download a torrent file from an HTTPS site, and you've set your torrent client to encrypt, the ONLY thing they will see is encrypted data. At no point is the torrent file, or the torrent data unencrypted. Guess what, I predict most torrent sites will start to go to HTTPS, and force encryption for their files. The ONLY reason they don't do it now, is that the server load for an encrypted connection is so much heavier than clear text, it would overwhelm most torrent sites CPU's.
--
The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!
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gorehound @ 5th Nov 07:37PM:
Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

Join me in my boycott of the greedbag industry many of us are really disliking.To say you dislike this industry and not do anything about it is a shame.These industries exist by us spending money.No money equals no industry.Let us send some kind of strong message too them as their are billions of us on this planet and many will be pissed off.
This is what I have personally been doing for some time now.It is working for me......maybe for you too.

1.I buy no RIAA/Corporate Label music or any artist who signs with the RIAA.also any other RIAA type organization.

2.When buying music I buy local artists first then Indie/Small Label artists.There are thousands and thousands of good artists out there who have nothing to do with greedbags.My art is all free and I give you around 6 albums worth at mostly 320k mp3 so do a lot of other cool artists.Mt site if you like punk rock and 60's garage is www.bigmeathammer.com

3.I refuse to buy any new movies from any of the large studios/MPAA.I am done with feeding their greed and they will now never get a dime out of me.

4.Of course I do like films so I buy my greeedbag films all used.First I try and buy used local and if not there on EBAY or Amazon.Buying used ensures that greeedbag gets zero dollars from me and I get the film to watch.

5.I buy new films too but only Indie/Small filmmakers all over the world.

6.I will buy new TV Show Boxsets so I can give my support to the shows I love.

I am doing these things because I am not a pirate.I work in a videostore as the right hand man to my friend and have worked there for 16 years.I can get all my films at cost.But even so I will not buy US films new.I also get all the free rentals I want.I am telling you this because I have no reason to go out and download.
My freedom is at risk !!! This type of behavior can only be the beginnning of something worse.I want an open and equal NET.
Screw You Hollywoood and your Stooges.
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rawgerz @ 5th Nov 07:39PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

You ever hear the saying, when there's a will, there's a way?

Why do you feel that everyone must suffer from the actions of a fringe minority? I'm sure that majority that do download movies either don't have the money, or live in a country where there is no Blockbuster type store anywhere.

Now on the other hand, if these were ALL people using them to make copies and make MONEY off someone else's work, they SHOULD be in jail.

You sure blindly support an industry that would sue your ass off only for singing the lyrics of a song out loud if they could.
--

You can't make all the people happy all of the time. But it should be common sense to shoot for the majority.
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karlmarx @ 5th Nov 07:44PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

Ha! Hahaha! And you call me a commie? You are so totally wrong on so many levels with the statement "outlaw encryption". WOW, you make Rush Limbaugh sound like a reasonable person. Damn, how the hell am I supposed to VPN to the office if you outlaw encryption. How the hell am I supposed to login to gmail if you outlaw https?

The bottom line is that even the lowest level processor is more than cable of using an AES-Twofish 512bit SHA hash, which is for all intents and purposes, "uncrackable". What, are the ISP's going to look for 'encrypted' data, and send in the right wing gestapho to your house if you send anything that's no plain text.

Please take 2 seconds to think before you make some totally stupid comment about 'outlawing encryption' as a solution for the AssAss's
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The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!
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Matt @ 5th Nov 07:45PM:
Re: Encryption

said by karlmarx :

Umm, no, that's not true. If you download a torrent file from an HTTPS site, and you've set your torrent client to encrypt, the ONLY thing they will see is encrypted data. At no point is the torrent file, or the torrent data unencrypted. Guess what, I predict most torrent sites will start to go to HTTPS, and force encryption for their files. The ONLY reason they don't do it now, is that the server load for an encrypted connection is so much heavier than clear text, it would overwhelm most torrent sites CPU's.

You're right, SSL would solve a large portion of the problem but is brutal on a web server's CPU. (My wimpy web server can serve 1500 requests a second, but only 56 using SSL.) However, your ISP sits in between you and that site, so they could very easily use any number of techniques to decrypt your SSL traffic. If torrent sites move to SSL, don't be surprised to see Arbor Networks/Sandvine offer a product that does just that. It can be very easily automated also because the initial request to www.torrentsite.com has to go unencrypted before the SSL session is established.
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karlmarx @ 5th Nov 08:07PM:
Re: Encryption

Umm, you aren't familiar with SSL are you? Unless they use a Man in the Middle (which, btw, generally DOESN'T work. Man in the middle CAN work with a Simple TLS handshake, but never works with a client-authenticated handshake (simply because the client only sends it's public key, which is worthless). However, having said that, I'm 99% sure than any device built to act as a man in the middle would run into several problems, the least of which it would need to be a quantum level CPU to handle the traffic, it most definitely breaks the 4th amendment, and the only thing they would capture on the 'initial' connection to 'torrentsite.com' is the request for encryption, AND they would need to know the address of 'torrent-site.com' before they could even start to do it. There are many reasons I don't think it's realistic for them to monitor encrypted traffic is that encryption is a pretty mature technology already, and anything they could come up with would VERY QUICKLY be defeated by programmers. Remember the golden rule, "information wants to be free", and anything that interferes with that (like said 'decryption device" would be instantly routed around by, lets see, umm, millions of people.
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The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!
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Matt @ 5th Nov 08:22PM:
Re: Encryption

There are SSL man-in-the-middle attacks out right now.

Encryption is not the answer and you're mistaken in thinking they'll need to crack the encryption or need any sort of quantum processor to handle the traffic. They route all that traffic now just fine. Once the SSL session is compromised, they don't have to do anything but siphon the traffic off as it passes through their routers. 4th amendment rules wouldn't apply either, as the 4th Amendment protects you from the government, not a private entity. In other words, it's the ISP's network and they can do as they please. Don't like it? Switch to an ISP with different policies.

If you want a good primer and a fun read on encryption, the history of cryptography, and how many of the older encryption ciphers were broken (hint: not with brute force) I suggest you pick up Crypto: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government Saving Privacy in the Digital Age. It's a great read that is only mildly technical. I highly enjoyed it.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 08:30PM:
Re: Encryption

said by Matt :

There are SSL man-in-the-middle attacks out right now.

Encryption is not the answer and you're mistaken in thinking they'll need to crack the encryption or need any sort of quantum processor to handle the traffic. They route all that traffic now just fine. Once the SSL session is compromised, they don't have to do anything but siphon the traffic off as it passes through their routers. 4th amendment rules wouldn't apply either, as the 4th Amendment protects you from the government, not a private entity. In other words, it's the ISP's network and they can do as they please. Don't like it? Switch to an ISP with different policies.

And the IRS (among other agencies) and the banking, healthcare, retail and other industries that RELY on trusted communications would kill it, plain and simple. The *AAs only have so much money. If even just the banking industry were against such man-in-the-middle tampering, the *AAs will be left out in the cold (think 0°K cold). The *AAs (and, probably most "intellectual property" holders or consortiums) really don't have even a reasonable fraction of what the banking industry could bring to bear. There's a reason that TARP happened.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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nixen @ 5th Nov 08:33PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

said by GolfDude :

how about if they are caught accusing somebody and they are found innocent, the suing party has to PAY for that persons internet service for LIFE! Its the ultimate penalty for these lobbyist toolbags... you want to accuse the innocent, then pay the price...

It would be rare enough that, at $1200/year for 60 years (would take most post-college age people into their 80s), that's peanuts (less than $100K). They'd easily agree to that. Even if you add in "legal expenses" to the settlement, it's still peanuts.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Matt @ 5th Nov 08:36PM:
Re: Encryption

said by nixen :

Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic as you. The government is going to do what the government wants, to say nothing of the little problem of encrypted communication related to terrorism.

Giving in and saying, "Hell, we'll just encrypt everything!" is not the answer. It's the easy answer, but it won't solve anything.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 08:37PM:
Re: Lose alot of their paying customers???

said by TKJunkMail :

Actually, a favorable Constitutional review would void the US's participation in the treaty. Signing treaties is a legal action that has to occur within the legal constructs of the US legal system. Such a review could easily cause the treaty provisions to be voided on numerous grounds. Granted, that assumes that the Supreme Court is actually doing their job, and not running around with the *AAs (and other ACTA pimps) hands up their asses.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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anon @ 5th Nov 08:54PM:
Re: Encryption

Matt,
The only way what you speak of will work is if its a physical MIM technique, and even then, those are very sophisticated and would be a government agency, or government sponsored civilian front company to pull it off. I don't care how many books you've read about it. As a matter of a fact, I'll bet ya! I'll escrow $1000.00 right now for a demonstration of someone pulling it off (and not alerting the browser). Hell, there have been much higher bounties than a grand for it, millions.
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cornelius785 @ 5th Nov 08:43PM:
Re: Encryption

i have yet to see a successful SSL man in the middle attack. the closet to a man in the middle attack is the client end point is moved to the attacker and the attacker serves an http page with a nearly indestinguishable url.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 08:55PM:
Re: Encryption

said by Matt :

Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic as you. The government is going to do what the government wants, to say nothing of the little problem of encrypted communication related to terrorism.

Simply put, "money talks". The organizations with the most money control the relevant laws. The *AAs are chump-change against what a number of other industries can bring to bear.

Imagine the impact on the trading houses if all the remote traders won't trade any more because their connections aren't confidential. Imagine the impact on simple banks if all of their internet-facing websites systematically can't be used confidentially?

Hell depending on the wording/requirements, whoever I, as a bank (or other industry that legally requires confidentiality - think HIPAA, here), get my connectivity from might be required to monitor my "private" channels (VPNs, WANs, etc.) I use to talk to DR sites, B2B connections, etc.

One also assumes that only HTTP will be effected or that channels other than HTTP wouldn't come into use. It leaves a "man-in-the-middle" ISP having to inspect and *try* to rip apart every byte of traffic, each of which might be using any number of technologies or protocols to protect their traffic. That's one fuckton of hardware you gotta have to be able to properly intercept and crack it all.

said by Matt :

Giving in and saying, "Hell, we'll just encrypt everything!" is not the answer. It's the easy answer, but it won't solve anything.

True, but encryption isn't nearly as much of a hit as it used to be. Many of the really beefy newer CPUs include encryption accelerators. Even those that don't can get them through expansion boards. It's definitely a lot better a solution than typical OS-level encryption (think software RAID vs. hardware RAID).

Such hardware is only going to get more common and more powerful. It has to, because it won't be much more than a couple years before password-based authentication has been rendered completely pointless. The replacement technologies pretty much all require greater processing power to implement.

Think of the power of bot nets. If significant portions of the ISP's customer nodes are encrypting, you're going to be in an arms race you can't possibly win. Part of why intelligence agencies tend to be against these types of legal efforts is that it makes their jobs harder. Right now, only a small percentage of the traffic they sift is encrypted. Laws like this would cause a non-trivial increase in encrypted traffic. This would significantly impact their operational capability.

There's just a lot that goes against wide-scale interception being workable.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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nixen @ 5th Nov 09:00PM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

said by TKJunkMail :

said by Simba7 :

Better not. You want to use usage of encryption skyrocket and watch the NSA/CIA crap their pants?

Would be very interesting to see something like that go up for Constitutional review. And, no, I don't particularly care about your particular, twisted interpretation of things would "have to" play out.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Matt @ 5th Nov 09:01PM:
Re: Encryption

said by specops :

Matt,
The only way what you speak of will work is if its a physical MIM technique, and even then, those are very sophisticated and would be a government agency, or government sponsored civilian front company to pull it off. I don't care how many books you've read about it. As a matter of a fact, I'll bet ya! I'll escrow $1000.00 right now for a demonstration of someone pulling it off (and not alerting the browser). Hell, there have been much higher bounties than a grand for it, millions.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm referring to direct ISP involvement here, not some arbitrary 3rd party who wants to snoop on your traffic. Comcast is already doing DPI using Sandvine, so I'm sure those guys are smart enough to figure out a way to snoop on SSL traffic since they control everything from you to the internet.

As far as it requiring some huge governmental agency, there's a publicly available java MITM SSL proxy anyone can download right now. »crypto.stanford.edu/ssl-mitm/
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russotto @ 5th Nov 09:10PM:
What about four balls?

Do we get to walk on four balls? How about the foul tip rule? Hit by pitch? And who is calling balls and strikes anyway?
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nixen @ 5th Nov 09:13PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by Matt :

So far all this uproar is based on a conversation that a US Trade official had with an EU official. There are no documents from the US proving any of this.

»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/1···ndering/

The leaked document is a three-page European Commission memo written by an unnamed EU official, which purports to summarizes a private briefing given in September by U.S. trade officials.

That's an afwul lot of uncertainty for the sky to be falling.

Would be interesting to see how these things would come up against the EU privacy laws.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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zachary1 @ 5th Nov 09:19PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

Well, it's just a piece of paper anyway!
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Matt @ 5th Nov 09:20PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by nixen :

Would be interesting to see how these things would come up against the EU privacy laws.

I wonder if there is perhaps a bit of collusion going on either to change any laws this would run afoul of, or if they would be superseded (like our laws) since it's an international treaty?
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trafficcloak.com - pptp/sstp vpn services
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zachary1 @ 5th Nov 09:22PM:
Re: Encryption

The cat and mouse game continues! If people really want to steal, they'll find a way to do it.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 09:26PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by Matt :

said by nixen :

Would be interesting to see how these things would come up against the EU privacy laws.

I wonder if there is perhaps a bit of collusion going on either to change any laws this would run afoul of, or if they would be superseded (like our laws) since it's an international treaty?

Again, international treaties do NOT superceed the laws of sovereign nations. If they could, it would mean Congress signing a law that said the king of Lichtenstein is now ruler of the US. Can't happen.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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zachary1 @ 5th Nov 09:27PM:
Re: Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

Screw the haterz, keep sharing!
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gorehound @ 5th Nov 09:32PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

I just wanted to also say here that if 'I went into some grocery store and stole some food I would not be banned from going into every grocery store.I might be told and probably would be trold to leave the store I tole from and they may even say you can not come in.

With this krap law once you get the 3 strikes you will not be connected again.What kingd of BS is that anyways ???

Screw you MPAA,RIAA, and all your stooge studios and artists.
you will never be getting my money.
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gorehound @ 5th Nov 09:36PM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

Hey I do not care about downloading I am pissed off because of freedom.I happen to work in a video store for 16 years now in Portland, ME. and I don't have to pay for rentals so what would I care.
And furthermore I am one of Maine's oldest punk rockers and you would not ever see mainstream music in my collection.I am also in my 50's and have been buying paper books and films and music for over 40 years so I already own a huge media library.

I will never be buying new films or music from any MPAA,RIAA, and their stooge labels/studios

I Want Freedom Not Censorship and Big Brother !!!!
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gorehound @ 5th Nov 09:37PM:
Re: Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

I am not a pirate I am looking out for my freedom.I do not want to see big brother come to the net.I do not care about downloading music or films.
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chronoss2009 @ 5th Nov 09:38PM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

because when 600 milion people clue in that they cant do anyhting for 75$ a month they are paying they wont and POOF goes the weasel

then its game over cant spy on that which isnt using anyhting you can spy on can you HAHA

GO FISH
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edit notes
and cant wait for 3 strikes to hit the usa and all the peeps with grudges to start the home hacking network LOL
boom bodda bing
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Matt @ 5th Nov 09:42PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by nixen :

Again, international treaties do NOT superceed the laws of sovereign nations. If they could, it would mean Congress signing a law that said the king of Lichtenstein is now ruler of the US. Can't happen.

Everything I can find seems to say that any international law that is ratified supersedes domestic law. I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of an international lawyer, which I am certainly not.

This may not be totally applicable to the US, but here's a good read from the perspective on the Australians. it's all I could dig up that was specific: »www.dfat.gov.au/treaties/worksho···ngs.html

Basically, domestic laws need to be modified to comply with international law (which governs treaties) and failure to bring domestic laws into compliance is no excuse. This is covered in the Vienna Convention:

To put it more formally, a State 'cannot plead provisions of its own law or deficiencies in that law' in answer to a claim it is in breach of a treaty obligation. 6 In this regard, I note that Article 27 of the Vienna Convention, in part, provides that:

A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty
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nixen @ 5th Nov 10:06PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by Matt :

Basically, domestic laws need to be modified to comply with international law (which governs treaties) and failure to bring domestic laws into compliance is no excuse. This is covered in the Vienna Convention:

To put it more formally, a State 'cannot plead provisions of its own law or deficiencies in that law' in answer to a claim it is in breach of a treaty obligation. 6 In this regard, I note that Article 27 of the Vienna Convention, in part, provides that:

A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty

What you're not getting is that, in the event that the foreign treaty violates sovereignty, participation in that treaty can be voided/withdrawn from. If necessary, the US could withdraw agreement to the Geneva Convention, withdraw from the UN, etc.

It's pretty much the equivalent of simply not becoming party to a treaty in the first place. I.e., just because every other nation in the world agrees to a given treaty, any sovereign entity can choose not to participate or to withdraw their participation.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Matt @ 5th Nov 10:10PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by nixen :

Then why sign it in the first place? That makes no sense. If at a later point a government wants to withdraw from the treaty sure. But it makes no sense to sign a new treaty that you have no intention of complying with.
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jmn1207 @ 5th Nov 10:13PM:
Re: What about four balls?

said by russotto :

And who is calling balls and strikes anyway?

Leslie Nielsen.
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nixen @ 5th Nov 10:30PM:
Re: Much ado about nothing ... yet

said by Matt :

Then why sign it in the first place? That makes no sense. If at a later point a government wants to withdraw from the treaty sure. But it makes no sense to sign a new treaty that you have no intention of complying with.

But we're not talking about that, now are we? We're talking about the ramifications of Constitutional review. It's the whole "checks and balances" thing. The Congress can pass any law they want to. The President can assert anything he likes. However, if it goes for review and fails, then it's null and void. The Congress passes laws all the time that fail review. They are then voided. A signed treaty would be no different.

Hell, look at Wilson. He, in all good faith, helped forge the treaties that established the League of Nations. He had every intention of the US signing it. In the end, he was overruled by the Congress.

Lets face it, more than a couple countries have signed the Hague and Geneva Conventions and not strictly adhered to them. Treaties last as long as they are expedient (e.g., German/Soviet non-agression pact). There is little means of enforcing international treaties (unless you consider larger countries or unions attacking smaller ones).
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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optemino @ 5th Nov 11:15PM:
what the F*#&

this is not cool, entertainment is nice and all... but to implement something like that would be HORRIBLE!! i understand net neutrality control of broadband networks, but not the blocking of content or booting people off connection, that's absurd
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chronoss2009 @ 5th Nov 11:52PM:
is the usa actually communist

sees to me the style of laws and style of governing and how htey let hollywood do what they want woprld wise is about same as soviet style communism

DAMN COMMIES
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bender @ 5th Nov 11:54PM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

said by TKJunkMail :

Except for some fanatics, no one will drop internet access just because they can't steal music & movies. Guess what - they will learn to pay for it or do without.

who do you think you are?

if people want to copy movies and music, they will. end of story. they might get caught, but whatever. thats only the problem of about 1% of the people out there.

if ACTA gets passed i think that piracy is the least of our worries and it has been covered quite well in the comments of this thread.
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tmodns.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 2996kbps
sbcglobal.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 5256kbps
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bender @ 5th Nov 11:56PM:
Re: Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

said by gorehound :

I am not a pirate.

of course your not. they don't have internet in Somalia.
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tmodns.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 2996kbps
sbcglobal.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 5256kbps
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zipjay @ 6th Nov 12:54AM:
so if you live in an apartment with 3 other roommates...

You have 12 chances to not get caught... simply get the net in someone elses name.. oh and lets not forget grandmas name, aunt, uncle, 2nd cousin, your kids name, ex girlfriend, the list goes on and on.. so as long as u know enough people you could have infinate chances.. and if its 3 PER ISP then oh boy
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Kearnstd @ 6th Nov 02:05AM:
dont forget false positives

i mean data is data and we know mistakes happen with ALL filters and they will always happen no matter what. if a legit torrent throws up flags odds are the content goons wont care they will want strike 1 thrown.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
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xdeadhead @ 6th Nov 02:33AM:
congress passes laws...

the riaa and mpaa can only throw money at them via lobbyists to try and influence those votes. since their business model is in the toilet, expect them to throw every last cent at this. this is precisely why we need term limits; so the business interests cannot influence old congressmen and women with FUD. adapt or die, mpaa and riaa. i say, good riddance.
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pwrtoppl @ 6th Nov 05:34AM:
enter a new era

filtering p2p content? lets see when they do that to a black box network
hell, i think a vpn connection would work too

filter that
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blog from boredom
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Anonymous_ @ 6th Nov 05:37AM:
Re: Magic Eight Ball

said by Simba7 :

I agree. With this, what's stopping the entertainment from making every country install "The Great Firewall" into every ISPs network?

..and pretty much kiss all your freedom goodbye. If you say something or do something, it'll be logged and your connection might be terminated.

Would anyone like to take the Constitution to the shredder soon?

we can just encrypt everything problem solved
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anon @ 6th Nov 05:38AM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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Anonymous_ @ 6th Nov 05:41AM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

said by TKJunkMail :

said by crese24 :

If this comes to pass, why don't we all just say "bye bye, to the internet?"

Right!! Except for some fanatics, no one will drop internet access just because they can't steal music & movies. Guess what - they will learn to pay for it or do without.

nah i will fulley switch to direct downloads to bypass it as downloading is not illegal
only uploading
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Anonymous_ @ 6th Nov 05:44AM:
Re: Encryption

said by Matt :

maybe because your using a pentium 2 on your server
upgrade to Intel Xeon I7 with HT
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bsoft @ 6th Nov 06:41AM:
Re: Encryption

Encryption is irrelevant in this situation. The ISPs and the content industry (RIAA, MPAA) do not detect copyright infringement by eavesdropping on your content. They don't need to.

By definition, with a P2P protocol, you're connecting to other users. To do so, you need to be able to identify those other users.

The MPAA/RIAA simply connects to the tracker (or to the DHT network, if you're using it) and asks for a list of peers, just like anyone else who is downloading does. This gives them your IP address, which they can use to determine your ISP and initiate a lawsuit (or, with three strikes, demand that your ISP send you a warning and/or disconnect you).

There are some ways to mitigate this risk:

- Use a private tracker. If you can ensure that no agent of the RIAA/MPAA connects, this provides good protection along with encryption. But, realistically, it's likely that someone from the MPAA/RIAA will be able to get into your privite tracker, unless your membership is seriously restricted.

- Redesign trackers to only give a small subset of hosts out, for example, 10 or 20. It's also important that the tracker give the same 10 or 20 hosts out with subsequent requests from the same IP. This limits the number of users that the RIAA/MPAA can discover for each IP address that they have, but it also makes the network less efficient.

- Use an anonymous P2P service. These systems use onion routing or another technique (usually involving multiple layers of encryption) to make it difficult to determine where the traffic originated from. The problem is that the RIAA/MPAA could argue that all of the users in the chain (including the node that the RIAA/MPAA connects to) are guilty of copyright infringement, and since they need to know the IP address of at least one of the people in the chain, this doesn't really help.

- VPNs help because they obscure your IP address, but the problem is that the VPN provider is now the target.
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gorehound @ 6th Nov 08:09AM:
Re: Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

Hey Fuck Off Asshoile.I am not a somalian I live in Portland Maine.
My Band is Big Meat Hammer.My website is www.bigmeathammer.com
I AM THE OLDEST PUNK ROCK AND AN ARTIST IN MAINE.
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bender @ 6th Nov 09:06AM:
Re: Boycott Hollywood,MPAA, and RIAA

calm down. i was refering to the real pirates from somolia, you know the ones that steal real stuff and hold people ransom. i never meant that you live in somolia. it was understood from your post that your from portland maine and the oldest punk rocker and an(sic) in maine.
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tmodns.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 2996kbps
sbcglobal.net speedtest result 11/5/09 - 5256kbps
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Simba7 @ 6th Nov 09:07AM:
Re: Encryption

Hell, just use a PS3 or a Tesla card.
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anon @ 6th Nov 09:58AM:
stop buying cable-tv!

you really want to hurt the mpaa, stop buying cable-tv.. that's right, cut off the mpaa's 3rd tier revenue stream! they make tons of money off of licensing content for cable-tv and you can hurt them back by not subscribing to it. by saving this money now, you will have saved up a warchest to shop around to another ISP when the times comes and if necessary even pay higher fees associated with telco or 3rd party provider broadband!
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jp10558 @ 6th Nov 10:19AM:
Re: Encryption

said by Matt :

Did you miss the whole part here:
"Once the proxy server is started, your web browser will need to be configured to make use of an SSL proxy, with the same host/port as above. Note that unless the proxy's certificate is imported into your browser CA certificate store, you will see warnings about untrusted server certificates."
on that page? I suppose if you ignore the warnings, then yes, you can be MITMed...
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Opera 10(Build 1750); Windows XP Pro SP3;Intel C2Q6600; 3GB DDR2 1066; 1M/128k DSL; Antivir Personal; Comodo Internet Security 3.10;Proxomitron 4.5j Sidki 2009-06-06,GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3
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jp10558 @ 6th Nov 10:21AM:
Re: Encryption

said by bsoft :

- VPNs help because they obscure your IP address, but the problem is that the VPN provider is now the target.

I wonder if using VPN providers in other countries wouldn't make this much harder to target? That is, you could use a VPN provider in a country that would be resistant to a US (or your country) content provider lawsuit...
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Opera 10(Build 1750); Windows XP Pro SP3;Intel C2Q6600; 3GB DDR2 1066; 1M/128k DSL; Antivir Personal; Comodo Internet Security 3.10;Proxomitron 4.5j Sidki 2009-06-06,GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3
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Matt @ 6th Nov 10:23AM:
Re: Encryption

said by jp10558 :

said by Matt :

Because there is no way your ISP can direct your traffic wherever they want is there? No ISPs have every used proxy servers in the past?
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jp10558 @ 6th Nov 10:27AM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

said by TKJunkMail :

said by crese24 :

If this comes to pass, why don't we all just say "bye bye, to the internet?"

Right!! Except for some fanatics, no one will drop internet access just because they can't steal music & movies. Guess what - they will learn to pay for it or do without.

That is true. However, if I were using the Internet for video / downloading/whatever that this might block, I might well find that the main value of the net has dropped a bunch.

So I'd be likely to stop paying the $50 a month high speed and go to the $20 a month plan for browsing text sites...

Of course this is looking at the Caps as well as P2P blocking, but if a company makes the product worth less and less, people will be willing to pay less and less for it.

Why pay for high speeds you can't use because of caps or anti-this or that ...
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Opera 10(Build 1750); Windows XP Pro SP3;Intel C2Q6600; 3GB DDR2 1066; 1M/128k DSL; Antivir Personal; Comodo Internet Security 3.10;Proxomitron 4.5j Sidki 2009-06-06,GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3
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nixen @ 6th Nov 03:23PM:
Re: Encryption

said by bsoft :

- Use an anonymous P2P service. These systems use onion routing or another technique (usually involving multiple layers of encryption) to make it difficult to determine where the traffic originated from. The problem is that the RIAA/MPAA could argue that all of the users in the chain (including the node that the RIAA/MPAA connects to) are guilty of copyright infringement, and since they need to know the IP address of at least one of the people in the chain, this doesn't really help.

Wouldn't really work. The whole point of things like Tor is that no one is really "trackable". Given the number of points of entry and exit (and the fluctuating routes between), they'd have to subpoena each node, one at a time, in the onion to track all the request packets back to a common source. Even then, the connections aren't really auditable (not like the onion software is logging connections). So, while they might find *one* edge-node, there's really no good way to backtrack through it to prove someone downloaded a usable chunk of the work.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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anon @ 7th Nov 12:37AM:
Re: Senate wil approve ACTA treaty when it is finished

Treaties supercede all national laws - and that IS in the constitution. So, there IS NO SUCH THING as constitutional review for treaties.
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crese24 @ 7th Nov 12:45AM:
Re: Lets all cancel our ISPs

In a way the internet would be less of a value if this came to pass. What is the point of hi-speed if they put so many restrictions on it?
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anon @ 7th Nov 04:06AM:
msg deleted

deleted by a moderator
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anon @ 9th Nov 07:04AM:
its a no win

no matter what they do they will never stop people from p2ping. encryption is the key, the fed hates the fact that its available to the public. the CIA tried many times before to outlaw it in the past for general public use.
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